[for_cars1]

Originally Posted by AJ56

... two cars going 80km/hr each will result in a crash at 80 km/hr, it’s not added up as momentum is shared equally by both bodies. ...

Just a small correction, there will be momentum transfer between the colliding vehicles.

Assuming, two cars(one bigger/heavier and the other smaller/lighter) have same crash worthiness levels traveling at about the same speed collide, the occupants of the smaller car will face the larger impact due to momentum transfer.

So its safer to be in a bigger(heavier) 5 star rated car than a smaller(lighter) 5 star rated car.

Originally Posted by GeeTee TSI

I have been trying to imagine how the engine got thrown out, one would expect the impact to push the engine through the firewall and into the cabin...

The engine mounts are designed to break off and drop the engine in case of a severe collision. This is a fairly standard safety feature that prevents the engine block from getting punched into the passenger cage during impact.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by for_cars1

Just a small correction, there will be momentum transfer between the colliding vehicles.

Assuming, two cars(one bigger/heavier and the other smaller/lighter) have same crash worthiness levels traveling at about the same speed collide, the occupants of the smaller car will face the larger impact due to momentum transfer.

So its safer to be in a bigger(heavier) 5 star rated car than a smaller(lighter) 5 star rated car.

Agreed 100%, NCAP scores are only valid against cars of the same weight class. Heavier mass results in more energy being required to slow down and since momentum is shared equally, the lighter body experiences a much greater rate of deceleration resulting in much larger g forces and injuries for the passengers. In an ideal world, if both vehicles weighed exactly the same, they would both be subjected to the same crash energy.

The point I was making was velocity simply cannot be added up to arrive at the crash energy each body would be subject too.

[losblancos_sr4]

Originally Posted by pixantz

I mean, there are lot of rich people buying much more costlier SUVs with much more power than the XUV700, like BMWs, Mercs, Audi, Volvo, Jeep, etc which have 300-700 bhp power, but it's rare for any of them to have ended like these in the numbers the XUV700 is single handedly doing.

Enthusiasts buying cars with 1000hp will be driven more safely than an XUV700 driven by a bunch of idiots with alcohol running through their body. So the power isn't in question EVER. It is always the driver.

[thanixravindran]

It seems a city bus crashed on the pillar supporting the sign board and the sign board fell on a two wheeler injuring two near Alandur metro station in GST road at Chennai. It looks nasty and hope they survived.

https://www.thenewsminute.com/articl...rams-it-166611

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by Sran

If not I will urge mods to delete your posts for unfounded claims to malign the companies and this forum.

Calling for someone to be censored just because one finds his views disagreeable is not something most freedom oriented members would support. The only ones who call for censorship are those with weak arguments.

Also, since many here seem to question the absolutely crap build, paint and fit and finish quality we see on Tata and Mahindra products, you can hear it from the horses mouth itself.

I’m a professional detailer, I specialise in paint correction and protection. I’ve worked on dozens of models from each of these brands and I can assure you (with proof) that the worst paint quality I have seen, and continue to see is on Tatas and Mahindras, from their cheapest offerings to the flagship SUV’s. Pinholes, orange peel, fish eye, overspray, debris caught under the clearcoat, sanding scratches straight from the assembly line, you name it and you’ll find it on their models. Harrier, XUV 700 and Thar are the ones I’ve seen the most defects on.

Now, to be fair there are very minor paint defects on every single mass produced car that rolls off the assembly line. The difference is, it’s found in 1 or 2 areas on the body and it’s very minor (otherwise it wouldn’t pass factory inspection). In the case of these 2 carmakers however it’s 5-8x worse than other makes so much so that 90-95% of the pictures in my paint defects album are from their models. Poor fit and finish and uneven panel gaps, poor quality of rubber seals (with burrs visible) are also common.

[invidious]

Scared the living daylights out of me looking at that pic. And if the guys were in their 30s, they are no spring chickens. Airbags, seat belts and any other safety equipment can't compensate for irresponsibility.

[xcentrk]

Originally Posted by Rohan265

Can you provide a source for the 150kph speed? If it is a witness statement, I don't think it is reliable because "150 kph" is a standard quoted speed by passers-by and police when they see heavy damage on the vehicle. I am not saying that the XUV700 is not speeding but saying that it is above 150 kph without any source is hearsay.

The guys who lost their life is a acquaintance of mine and friends of my brother. A close friend of my brother go for a ride once with them and he said he consistently maintained 120 in his Elite i20 pre-facelift in the same route. And that was the last he took a ride with him, because he was scared for his life and when he explained it to us after the ride, he was still panicking. Even in the residential roads, he drives between 60-80. Also, he never ever wears seat belt.

Not sure 150, but 120 would have been my guess.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

Well I think you took it personal buddy. !

Nope. Just pointing out that tata and Mahindra build may be iffy, but if one is going to crash at a 150 kmph, it will not matter.

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by Ragul

They were all irresponsible?? Imagine you are a passenger and the driver acts reckless. Surely only the drivers actions deserves condemnation.

Originally Posted by whitewing

Agree.
In this particular case, IF (a big IF-since this is not confirmed yet) the driver was under influence of alcohol, then, letting him/her drive and accompanying the driver for a ride would be nothing but irresponsible.

Originally Posted by sunilch

Yes and No. The Driver is the primary entity at fault but passengers do play a role here. Either they trust the driver too much and bet their life on him/her. Or they are part of the tribe that does unsafe high-speeds themselves too.

Recently Madras High court has to say on this subject in a drink and drive case. This newspaper clip is shared by Chennai Traffic Police in their Twitter handle.

[MT_Hyderabad]

Originally Posted by Rohan265

This looks like a standard head-on underride in which the car has gone under the truck. Quite hard to say the exact collision angle as someone has taken the car to the cleaners during extrication. The damage that we see is both collision+extrication damage. It is quite hard to say that the bus was also at a high speed without inspecting the scene.

Underride accident with a bus is not 'standard'.

I haven't seen cars getting under the bus in a head on collision. They do it when the accident is on the rear end of the heavy vehicle.

Also, the depth of the damage to the bus clearly shows that it was caused by the front tyre moving back. This maybe the reason I think that the bus was also at high speed (of course it was a highway and the bus wasn't stationary).

The car's driver seat is upright and intact, if the car went to such a distance under the bus, the full left side of the car would be reduced to 200 odd mms.

See this similar video below. This maybe what happened in this case.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-...ml#post4972577

[knightfurry]

Originally Posted by SaiSW

I simply don't know what is in the minds of a lot of the drivers of the above mentioned cars, especially Ritz diesels, that make them so reckless on the roads. Ofcourse this is not to say that all drivers of those cars are reckless, but from my experience, most of the culprits drive those cars.

I owned a diesel Ritz & I get what you are saying. 150-160 kmph was very easy to achieve.
The car met with two major accidents in 7 years & 1.5L kms, no injuries at all to the occupants.
The XUV accident looks like a headon collision. I have seen lot of video & reels where people are experimenting with its ADAS or doing silly speeds even on 4 lane state highways. This looks like one more experiment gone wrong. Many idiots in this are questioning the GNCAP ratings. https://twitter.com/rushlane/status/...tz1X_lps1LEeKg
Do they expect 5 start ratted cars to cut through anything & everything thrown at it?!

[shauryadabas]

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

Feel sorry for the occupants, but this is a live example of why NEVER to buy a Tata/Mahindra or any Indian vehicle. They falsify all their ratings and actually cut costs for the road going variants. That's not how a Pseudo SUV should be crushed.

Sorry to say, but I totally disagree with you on all your points. First of all, IMO, even a German luxury car would not have sustained this same crash which happened at around 150kmph (forget about other brands). You should see some data regarding high speed (>130kmph) luxury car crashes in India (almost all of these have fatalities). Secondly, you are showing disrespect to our Indian manufacturers (Tata/Mahindra) who have had a tremendous growth over the years in regards to safety (surpassing all the rivals in their respective segments). And lastly, you should see some images where X1, Q3 and all these PSEUDO SUVs driven madly above 120kmph have been crushed beyond recognition.
REMEMBER that an extreme high speed crash can’t save your life be it any automobile brand from the world.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

Feel sorry for the occupants, but this is a live example of why NEVER to buy a Tata/Mahindra or any Indian vehicle.

Correction. This is a live example of why you shouldn't drink and drive. Or are you suggesting that the accident had nothing to do with drunk driving, and that it would've been okay to drink and drive in a German/Jap car?
Incidentally, the safest rated cars in the world are essentially Chinese.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

They falsify all their ratings and actually cut costs for the road going variants. That's not how a Pseudo SUV should be crushed.

Those are some mighty claims. So how is it then that Hyundai and Kia, and even Suzuki seem unable to falsify their ratings as well? Considering that they are much bigger players in the global market, they should be able to easily falsify the ratings as well, right?

The NCAP crash tests are conducted at a speed of 64 kph. This is because if they conducted the tests at a higher speed, even the best cars wouldn't pass. More importantly, there is an expectation that the drivers of the vehicles would be alert enough and driving at speeds sane enough that they would be able to bring the vehicle speeds down to these speeds, or lower. In fact, several countries have NCAP speeds even lower at 56 kmph.

Even then, the Indian made Suzuki Swift and the VW Polo didn't score a single star in the tests the first time around, because they deliberately cut down the safety features on lower variants to save money. There is documented proof that the Swift sold in India is missing essential safety bits that are present on the Euro model. And VW owners themselves have revealed on the forum that quality is getting worse over the years.

So, let's not make this a contest of "German/Jap build quality vs Indian Jugaad", just because you have some unfounded and preconceived notions regarding Indian companies and are determined to vent them on this forum. Instead, let's look at the facts. This was a high speed crash involving inebriated driver, where both vehicles were overspeeding. A car is after all made of steel, not vibranium. Every structural member was once a blank sheet of steel, and it was bent into its form by applying force. So it is given that it will deform given a sufficient application of force. Force=mass X acceleration, so the higher the mass or acceleration, the greater the force will be. In this case, the opposing mass came in the form of a fully loaded, over speeding bus, weighing over 15 tons.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

I still fail to understand why people still buy them. Is your life cheaper than these vehicles? I guess NOT. I'd rather spend more to get a comparable or spend the same to get a lower variant of a German/Japanese vehicle but never ever am I ever gonna buy an Indian or a Korean vehicle. That's for sure!

Failures are the stepping stones to success. If you try I'm sure you could definitely understand why people would buy cars you don't personally prefer, or have different priorities than your own.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

Unless you're hell bent on scrapping your car purposely, it's almost impossible to get any Japanese/German vehicle into the shape of that Mahindra in the post above.

From that statement, I take it you're not a regular visitor to these threads.
Just go through the thread, and you'll see all the Germans and Japs in similar and worse conditions after crashes. You do recall that Princess Diana died in a car crash, and it was an S Class Merc she was in? And this was when S Class merc were heavy juggernauts.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

I mean if you've worked closely or even visited their design departments and seen the manufacturing process, you'll know what I mean. I speak from my experience and my long experience on working on cars of almost all companies. I'd rather not make a lose statement otherwise. I know what I'm talking about.

Interesting. Would you mind revealing specifics? I mean is your experience based on actually working at German, Japanese and Indian plants?

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

You really don't know how dirty Indian brands play to earn that kind of money at the cost of fickle minded consumers. You don't just go and buy Jaguar Land Rover by playing it right and being a domestic manufacturer of compromised cars, trucks and buses. You either have a great wealth from a long history of Automotive business and racing championships with accolades to your name (Which is just not the case with any Indian or Korean Automakers) or you're making good money from offering cheap quality stuff to people. Ever wonder how Geely (Chinese) acquired Volvo? Food for thought.

Tata and Mahindra have been making cars for decades, agreed. They've made a lot of money from making basic CVs and basic passenger vehicles, also agreed. Geely did pretty much the same thing, sure.

But here you are, saying that Tata acquiring Land Rover and eventually using a Land Rover platform to build a sub 20 lac vehicle is some kind of dirty play. And Mahindra acquiring Ssangyong, a company that essentially made rebranded old Mercedes vehicles, is also 'Dirty', and the same thing for Geely as well, who has acquired Volvo, and is now making some really "Dirty Play" Volvo S60s and V60s, (safest rated cars in the world BTW, but they could be faking the ratings too, since Geely now owns them.. )

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

There's a lot to read and understand about before coming to any conclusion and if almost everyone did that we won't be seeing manuals replaced with automatics or combustion engines replaced with electrics and definitely no one would ever buy such rip off brands like Tata, Mahindra, Hyundai, Kia etc. Trust me, the deeper you go the more you realize how these brands rip you off without you even knowing about it.

Aah, the plot thickens. However, this is too generic. Please explain why someone shouldn't buy a Tata Harrier or an XUV700 automatic, which uses a Japanese Aisin TC gearbox, AFAIK. And almost every AMT in India is made by Marelli and Bosch/Siemens.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

Since I've taken apart a lot of these cars, I can tell you the low quality of replicas these companies use to build their cars. It's terrible!

We could really use this information here. Please tell us specifically what is wrong with the XUV700 construction, that you wouldn't EVER buy it. This info could be vital for potential buyers. Generic comments though, aren't worth their weight in sewage unless backed by actual facts. While you're there, also tell us about other fake 4/5 star cars, such as the Tata Nexon, and why you think the rating is fake, and there's a difference between the production cars and testing vehicles.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

You know anyone can quote those numbers. A lot of Made in India products come printed with "Export Quality" or "High Quality" on their flimsy boxes while they're of laughable quality . They can publish anything because who's gonna ask here in India?

First of all, lets stick to cars on this forum. Secondly, we the consumers are "gonna ask here in India", and we have. On this forum alone, we have stood together against auto makers' malpractices on numerous occasions, and raised our voice together to protest, and pooled our resources to help out a fellow customer. While it is sad that there are no anti lemon laws, there is precedent of strong action against companies for false advertising and unsafe practices. Recently, a car owner was able to successfully sue a car maker for not offering a full size spare wheel. But I doubt that a german/japanaese drunk driver would be able to sue their car maker for not protecting them fully in a 100 mph crash.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

Also, those numbers mean nothing if the material being used is not in the right place. I can build a tank like vehicle but it would still be a piece of junk if I didn't reinforce it at the right places. They DON'T mention that!

They do mention that. Almost every car launch nowadays has a model of the car superstructure with steel distribution clearly demarcated.

This is from the XUV700 launch, BTW.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

I'd rather take those numbers with a grain of salt unless Tata/Mahindra is willing to supply a certificate with those numbers and VIN of the car printed clearly for every car being sold so that they can be challenged later on in case of an unfortunate event like this one above.

Have you worked at these plants to be so sure that there is no standardised process for assembling a car? That seems rather absurd. "I have a friend who works at X company saying they don't follow procedure" is just unsubstantiated hearsay.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

It wasn't until 2003 that they had the chance to control the lineup as they wanted to and now they're just capitalizing on a successful recipe that worked for them.

True, it has only been almost 2 decades since Suzuki has been at the reins and it is clearly not enough time to get their act together and make safe cars. When it is the Germans and Japanese doing it, they are "capitalising on a successful recipe" and when it is the Indian brands, they are "playing dirty tricks to make money". Wow.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

You said that Indian companies have improved a lot. Well, it's not called improving. It's called copying and still they can't even do that properly....They will take another 100 years (If at all) to even develop the supply chain and quality policies being followed by the German and Japanese Giants.

What exactly do you mean by 'copying'? What are the companies copying? Design? Manufacturing practices? Technology? Because these aren't secrets any more. It's all out there, for sale if you have the money. You need a good design? You buy Pininfarina. You need a great SUV platform? Buy JLR and take theirs. You need an automatic transmission? Buy it from Aisin, or Punch powertrain. Process/supply chain optimisation? Pay world leading firms to analyse your process and optimise it. A 100 years? Try 10, or less. Toyota and Honda are just now launching Hybrids, while Tata has 3 EVs for sale, and Mahindra is about to launch theirs.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

Foreign brands may be expensive (Due to taxes and duties) but give them the same concession and subsidies as Indian Brands, then let's see how they even survive.

Go through our forums to learn a bit about MSIL's history in India and how they got the government itself to stifle other Indian competition in highly unethical ways, including blocking similar collaboration deals between Tata and Honda, and ensuring a monopoly.

Today, foriegn carmakers are already being offered the same concession and subsidies and incentives to make in India. And you are quite ill informed regarding the government support. Every official will travel in nothing less than an Innova Crysta, and governments are buying them in bulk. When they used to sell the Innova at sensible prices, even the states/police departments used to buy them. Let them develop a cost effective product for the high volume market to beat the Bolero, which should be a cakewalk for them considering their supply chain and quality policies and expertise. What's preventing them from "capitalising on Mahindra's succesful recipe?"

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

You need to get your hands dirty to find out the truth . From low quality bolts with snapped heads to paper thin materials, it's all in there for your to see and experience when you do your own work. Cheers!

Since you've already gotten your hands dirty, post a pic. Factory leaks happen all the time. Why don't you post a pic to show the comparison between a TVS bolt on a Mahindra and a high quality japanese bolt, or maybe a pic of the paper thin material. You're opening up these cars all the time, I'm sure you have a couple of pics, go on, put them up.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

How many factory recalls can you quote for Tata/Mahindra?

You should really google "tata recall" or "mahindra recall" sometime. Might learn something.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

We're talking about Tata/Mahindra here not Mercedes, Skoda etc. some of which have their origins dating back to the 1800s.

Again, Google. Tata and Mercedes go a long way back. You do know that Tata was assembling Mercedes E-Class cars from CKDs way back in the 90s, right? And when you speak about German reliability, do browse through our "Imports gathering dust thread" and count the Germans you see there. Also do a small search for DQ200, which is almost a swear word in this forum.

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

Also, I'm not even getting paid to steer potential consumers clear of these unethical brands. It's just that I feel if I can save someone from making a wrong choice, I've done my bit.

Truly Ironic that you're calling Indian brands unethical, when the term dieselgate was coined for a german company, and it is a japanese firm that is dumping the most no of unsafe cars in Indian markets just because there is no crashworthiness program in place.

[gopi_rm]

I am appalled that some of the learned forum members are trying to bash NCAP rating and some are trying to bash Tata/Mahindra without knowing the actual ground report about the accident scenario (speed & direction of collision, impact on both vehicles, other obstacles on the road when collision happened, road condition, etc.). GNCAP test the vehicles only in a defined set of crash scenarios to asses the vehicle's safety with same set of reference for all the vehicles. It does not mean that a vehicle with 5 star rating would protect it's occupants in any kind of crash scenario.

For those who think that Tata/Mahindra are cheating with GNCAP rating and only Germans/Japs are selling indestructible & safe cars, here are some visuals from precisely laid out German Autobahns where almost 90% of the drivers drive as per the textbook rules yet still the indestructible German cars are crumpled like this.

[snaga99]

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