[manishalive]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Can you explain the solution in more detail please?

Updates from where!? Do you know any insider in Maruti?

As much as I know Maruti is yet to acknowledge the weak brakes in the Swift/Dzire!

No insider, but bimal service manager Mr Ravi Shankar told me so. One of my fiends work for maruti in Mumbai region and in sales, marketing channel. Will contact him, he will be right person. Above that we have supplied generators to Suzuki so I know their plant maintenance team also. That route can also be used.

[gemithomas]

Forbes India Magazine carries a full fledged article on the New Swift Break Issue.

Its quite ridiculous what Maruti spokesperson Claims:

“The brake is fully functional during such time, irrespective of hardness of pedal.The correct technique is to press the brake and not crawl at half clutch. Please note that the NVH [noise, vibration and harshness] refinement level of new Swift is so good that the engine does not judder even under such abnormally low RPM conditions.”

I guess he is trying to say that most Swift owners DONT know how to stop their cars once it starts moving. And exceptionally good NVH levels could be more of a curse than a boon if you are not from a Maruti Driving School!!!!

Pathetic situation... I would not blame Maruti though. Its more about the Government who never bothered to bring in a system to check such practices / attitudes of companies that have no botheration for the life of those who earn them their profits.

[manjubp]

After nearly 4 months of regular escalations last week during 10K service, the MASS agreed, that the breaks are not effective and they need to replace the break assembly. Parts were not available, and they placed the order.

Yesterday they got the parts and replaced the booster under warranty. Yet to test the breaks. Once done I would update.

[mukeshgoel]

Spurce: http://www.cartoq.com/maruti-fixes-s...aking-problem/

Maruti fixes Swift braking problem!

Maruti has apparently come up with a solution to the new Maruti Swift’s low-speed braking problem. Members of the CarToq community had complained about braking issues in the new Swift, saying that the brake pedal tended to become hard and the car wouldn’t stop at extremely slow speeds, when driving with the clutch pedal half depressed.

The problem

CarToq community members Toms Mathew, Sibiraj, Arun Vijayaraghavan, Mangalam Singhania and others had reported this problem on CarToq in May this year. Read: Braking problems in new Swift

These members had taken the car to various Maruti dealerships across the country but no permanent solution was found and the problem continued to occur. CarToq experts tried to replicate the problem with dealer test cars around the country but were not successful. A detailed note to Maruti about the problem did not get any response either, with Maruti refusing to acknowledge the problem.

In late July, more members across forums had begun to report the same problem with the Swift. However, Maruti did not initiate a recall, but has apparently been silently working on the problem in the background without making it official. Read: Will Maruti recall new Swift for braking issues?

In early August, there was a partial acknowledgement of the issue through the company’s Facebook page, but Maruti’s response was that drivers needed to change their driving style with the new Swift and not use “half-clutch” in peak traffic or slow speed driving conditions. Read: Maruti says Swift owners facing braking issues are driving wrong!

The solution

However, now Maruti has found a solution to the braking problem and is quietly calling customers who have complained about the brakes and fixing it. The problem was because the engine rpm would fall below idle rpm when there was load on the engine when using half clutch, and hence not enough vacuum was being generated to assist the brake booster – leading to the brake pedal becoming hard.

The solution that Maruti has apparently come up with involves updating the software of the Swift’s ECU, which then takes care of this problem. CarToq member Toms Mathew, in Bangalore, got a call from Maruti and was asked to bring his Maruti Swift ZXi into the dealership. There was a technician there as well as the TSM (Territory service manager) and they checked his car. After replicating the problem, the car was taken into the shop-floor and 15 minutes later the car was driven out again, and the problem disappeared.

Two days ago another CarToq community member Sibiraj, in Kerala, was also asked to bring his Swift LXi in and the problem was fixed in exactly the same way. The software on the ECU was upgraded, according to Sibiraj. The problem has not recurred in Sibiraj’s Swift either.

What we think has been fixed is that the ECU now refuses to let the engine rpm drop below idle rpm under any driving condition. As long as it stays above idle rpm, there is enough vacuum being generated for the brake booster. CarToq community member Ayyappa Raj has this problem in his Swift and thinks this is the solution as well.

Maruti technicians are being cagey as to what they changed, but the gist of it is that the parameters on the ECU were not correct and these were set right. But they are not officially calling this a recall as it perhaps has other legal connotations. SIAM had issued a code of conduct for manufacturers to recall cars that had a problem, but that was a purely voluntary role. Another plausible explanation as to why the company isn’t officially recalling cars, but only calling customers who have this problem is perhaps because it’s not prevalent in all Swifts or perhaps a change in ECU configuration requires ARAI certification again.
What to do if you have this issue?

Now if you are a Swift owner and you are facing this particular braking problem at slow speed, here’s what you can do. Call your local Maruti service station and detail the problem to them. Ask if it can be fixed and do inform them that service centers in Bangalore and Kerala have already done this. If it’s an official fix, all service stations will have the information about this and will be able to fix it for you.

[rameshnanda]

There is no solution yet from Maruti.

Country's largest carmaker , Maruti Suzuki is re-working the software of its popular Swift hatchback to rectify widespread customer complaints of soft braking at low speeds, but denied any 'technical recall' of the car.

The company hasn't released any other information on the issue as yet and said, "There is no recall of Swift in India. We have no issued any technical or engineering checks on the car so far," the company intimated on a query on the issue.

This is ridiculous in my opinion. No checks done even after so much of complaints. This is such basic and serious safety issue which is taken very lethargically by the Auto Company.

Source - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/16603299.cms

[vvb8530]

I bought my Swift Lxi in March this year. I had read a lot about the poor braking of the swift however in general i have not found the braking to be inadequate but i have continuously experienced the issue of brake pedal going hard at low rpms. This mostly occurs during parking specially parallel parking with not too much room and as soon as i get close to the car parked behind and the rpm is very low suddenly the brake pedal becomes hard. I had to always press the accelerator pedal a few times for the brake pedal to become normal again. I have faced this issue only once while driving forward when i was driving in bumper to bumper traffic.

I have sent the car for the 2nd service today at Shivam Autozone one of the dealers for Maruti in Mumbai and gave them the complaint. I know the owner of the dealership as well as most of the staff there so spoke to the GM service who confirmed to me that quite a few Swifts have come with the same problem and that Maruti has done a lot of R&D and found a solution. He has informed me that they will send my car to the regional office of Maruti in Mumbai and they will upgrade the ECU software and it will be sorted. He also mentioned that ECU related issues are very sensitive and they have no control of the car once they hand it over to the Maruti engineers, who sort out the issue and give it back to them in 15 minutes. Lets see when the car comes back tomorrow hopefully the issue would be sorted permanently. Will keep you all posted.

[whitewing]

Originally Posted by mukeshgoel

Spurce: http://www.cartoq.com/maruti-fixes-s...aking-problem/
....
CarToq member Toms Mathew, in Bangalore, got a call from Maruti and was asked to bring his Maruti Swift ZXi into the dealership....

I thought this problem was limited to LXI and VXI models?

Originally Posted by mukeshgoel

Spurce: http://www.cartoq.com/maruti-fixes-s...aking-problem/
...
Now if you are a Swift owner and you are facing this particular braking problem at slow speed, here’s what you can do. Call your local Maruti service station and detail the problem to them.....

My experience till now has been that I contacted the M.A.S.S around a month and a half back. The service center persons did not acknowledge the problem (If they feigned ignorance or were really unaware, I do not know) further persistence lead to an assurance that they would contact Maruti and take it further. That was the end of it.

Two weeks back, I contacted Maruti by e-Mail, that triggered the M.A.S.S to enquire about the issue (Maruti apparently wanted feedback from the M.A.S.S) - and wanted me to handover the vehicle for 1 day of "tests", this I refused. Again, have been assured that "someone from Maruti" will contact me.
In the mean time, I am yet to get a reply from Maruti - I have not even got an acknowledgement of the complaint.

Wonder why Maruti is in denial ? Customers would have more faith if they acknowledge the problem AND fix it.

That too, It is now documented that they did "fix" something in several cars - but they refuse to accept that there is a "fix" and want their customers "earn" the right to have safe brakes !!

[Viju]

Originally Posted by Sankar

I guess the brochure clarifies why the new Swift brakes poorly, please see the attached pages - look under Safety & Security. The old one says it's got Brake Assist in all the variants and its NOT optional. In the new Swift brochure Brake Assist is only on the Z variant.

If brake assist feature is not supposed to be given on a non ABS equipped vehicle, then how come it was given in the non ABS L and V variants of the previous generation Swift? Why isn't it provided in the new gen vehicle?


If this brake assist thingy is inside the brake booster i think swapping out the new Swift's booster with the old one's might get some bite back into the brakes. Just my thoughts.

Hello Sankar, madmax here. Small world.

Sorry for the late reply. Couldn't post this earlier since I was still working for MSIL R&D.

The brake assist feature given for L & V grades in the old Swift brochure was a typo. It was there only in the Z grade (and so is the case with the new Swift). If you want Brake Assist in your V grade vehicle, you can fit the Z grade booster in it, but it is definitely not recommended since it would lead to wheel lock. The whole purpose of Brake Assist is to build up the boost upto lock pressure at the wheels (when ABS would cut in of course). This is the best case scenario for maximum braking force with minimum braking distance.

Regards
Viju

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Viju

Hello Sankar, madmax here. Small world.

Hi Viju, small world indeed Hope you still have that mint silver 350 that was a lucky find!

Ok, so Z booster isn't a good idea! Then what if i use the booster from the old model non Z variant, will there be any change in braking? How come the older Swift have this better braking efficiency? Is it because of the state of tune of the engine or VVT that its not developing enough vacuum in the booster? Any other reason?

I have faced this issue couple of times while reversing.

Regards,
Sankar.

[zenren]

Originally Posted by Viju

The brake assist feature given for L & V grades in the old Swift brochure was a typo. It was there only in the Z grade (and so is the case with the new Swift).

How about the VXi ABS/VDi ABS option in the old model Swift? Did they not have brake assist?

[manishalive]

Viju, why on earth did maruti stopped providing vxi with abs option. And totally understand that using the zxi booster alone will not work. I have 2 questions -

1.) What has maruti done to overcome this issue, I came to know there was a software update. Has that cured the issue. My driving style is different so have faced the issue only once.

2.) How easy/difficult is to have abs installed in a vxi.

[piyush78]

What I feel about the issue is that the braking modulation/ assist is less as such for the diesel models also since it has higher torque & require higher gripping power. Would like to know from you people, will upgrading the OEM brake pads of the disc brake to performance pads (TMD Friction Brake Pads) do any good to swiftD's braking performance?? I just want some extra bite at low to moderate speeds.
MSIL should have provided all 4 disc braking for the new swift to really give it atleast class equal braking. BTW , I happened to have a small drive in a friends punto MJD & I was surprised by good braking that this car has, definitly better than my zdi.

[Viju]

Originally Posted by Sankar

Hi Viju, small world indeed Hope you still have that mint silver 350 that was a lucky find!

Ok, so Z booster isn't a good idea! Then what if i use the booster from the old model non Z variant, will there be any change in braking? How come the older Swift have this better braking efficiency? Is it because of the state of tune of the engine or VVT that its not developing enough vacuum in the booster? Any other reason?

I have faced this issue couple of times while reversing.

Regards,
Sankar.

Hi Sankar, yes Rusty is still very much with me.

It is most probably a combination of the factors you've mentioned - related to engine (and EMS software parameters in some cases) and tuning of booster.

I cannot suggest a solution other than to wait till MSIL comes up with a cure (like they did a mid-life change for earlier Diesel Swift / Dzire models by retuning the booster).

Originally Posted by zenren

How about the VXi ABS/VDi ABS option in the old model Swift? Did they not have brake assist?

Hi zenren, the spec is quite simple. With ABS = with Brake Assist. Without ABS = without Brake Assist. Sorry I did not mention the optional variants explicitly in my previous post.

Originally Posted by manishalive

Viju, why on earth did maruti stopped providing vxi with abs option. And totally understand that using the zxi booster alone will not work. I have 2 questions -

1.) What has maruti done to overcome this issue, I came to know there was a software update. Has that cured the issue. My driving style is different so have faced the issue only once.

2.) How easy/difficult is to have abs installed in a vxi.

Hi Manish, decision by an OEM to carry over certain features, colours, variants during a model upgrade is made after studying the sales of the running model. Most probably, the optional variants with ABS sold so little (compared to the overall sales figure) that the planning / marketing guys would have thought it is best to axe the configuration in the new model. Moreover, it is always better to have less optional models from an assembly line perspective.

1) As I left MSIL sometime ago, I am really not in a position to answer this.

2) Very difficult if you ask me. During my tenure in MSIL, I have had to do both the conversions (ABS to non-ABS & non-ABS to ABS) multiple times on proto vehicles for testing etc, and believe me, you wouldn't want to do it on your own car. For starters, it would involve replacement of vacuum booster, almost all brake pipes, addition of ABS unit, bracket, wiring harness, steering knuckle, wheel speed sensors, rear brake assembly, rear hub (in case of integrated encoder) and if you want your ABS warning lamp, change of meter cluster. And I am sure I am missing a few parts from the list.

You could calculate the efforts and cost involved, but I am pretty sure that if you buy all the parts from MASS at MRP, it wouldn't cost less than 6 digits.

And even if you do all this, except the warrant to be null and void, and the reliability would always be a question mark.

Hope this helps somehow.

[manishalive]

Originally Posted by Viju

Hi Manish, decision by an OEM to carry over certain features, colours, variants during a model upgrade is made after studying the sales of the running model. Most probably, the optional variants with ABS sold so little (compared to the overall sales figure) that the planning / marketing guys would have thought it is best to axe the configuration in the new model. Moreover, it is always better to have less optional models from an assembly line perspective.

1) As I left MSIL sometime ago, I am really not in a position to answer this.

2) Very difficult if you ask me. During my tenure in MSIL, I have had to do both the conversions (ABS to non-ABS & non-ABS to ABS) multiple times on proto vehicles for testing etc, and believe me, you wouldn't want to do it on your own car. For starters, it would involve replacement of vacuum booster, almost all brake pipes, addition of ABS unit, bracket, wiring harness, steering knuckle, wheel speed sensors, rear brake assembly, rear hub (in case of integrated encoder) and if you want your ABS warning lamp, change of meter cluster. And I am sure I am missing a few parts from the list.

You could calculate the efforts and cost involved, but I am pretty sure that if you buy all the parts from MASS at MRP, it wouldn't cost less than 6 digits.

And even if you do all this, except the warrant to be null and void, and the reliability would always be a question mark.

Hope this helps somehow.

I can very well understand the rationale behind the removal of abs. Instead of providing chromed and aluminum ascents, power windows and central locking, they should give abs, airbags and rear wipe.

I thought that for abs conversion only modulator and sensors are required. Rest of the wiring and hardware would already have been in place (just like for example steerio wiring). That would have money for company, having common parts and similar build except for sensors and modulators.

Thanks for enlightening me, now do globally maruti faces the same issue, I think the engine is India specific, so in other countries, they will not face such issue.

[whitewing]

Originally Posted by whitewing

My experience till now has been that I contacted the M.A.S.S around a month and a half back. The service center persons did not acknowledge the problem. Wonder why Maruti is in denial ? Customers would have more faith if they acknowledge the problem AND fix it.

That too, It is now documented that they did "fix" something in several cars - but they refuse to accept that there is a "fix" and want their customers "earn" the right to have safe brakes !!

And update.. my service center called up and took the car for re-verifying with and engineer from Maruti. Then they claimed that they did brake bleeding! The job card also mentions the same.
I tried to reproduce the issue a few times, could not get it (again this occured to me only a few times since I have done half clutch only a few times), so, can't say with certainity the issue is gone.

The service engineer was not able to explain what brake beeding had to do with the issue I reported, anyway chose to let sleeping dogs be, don't have the patience to get an acknowledgement on what they did.

On the changes seen (or it must be placebo effect according to Maruti)
- the clutch adjustment seems to be altered a bit
- The realtime mileage indicator in general seems to be showing higher efficiency (similar road/driving) when compared to previous values.
- the power delivery in 2nd gear seems to be altered (more flattish response).