[chinkara]

Originally Posted by V-16

How could team-bhp help in the implementation of this rule? Firstly, when this rule does not exist?

The first and foremost rule is that buses and other commercial transport vehicles do not come in the extreme right lane. The last lane is for them and the middle one if they need to overtake.Where is that followed. Then there is a speed limit on these buses and in many states there is a mandatory limiter put in these buses. Thats what i think is necessary.

What is so difficult in putting up boards along the highway/expressways that use the extreme right lane only for overtaking. There are idiotic drivers who drive at snail speed and refuse to give you the side, forcing you to overtake them from the left. On top of it all when you pass, you get a dirty glare, as if it is you who is in the wrong. I think the highway and traffic authorities need to check this primary folly made by many a driver, rather than try and catch erring drivers for the stupidest reasons to fill their pockets.

Please educate our nitwit drivers in the rules of the road.

But why is this the case? In the first year or so of the Mumbai-Pune expressway opening, the right lane actually used to be free for overtaking. The cabbies also used to be very scrupulous about it.

Somewhere down the line, it all broke down.

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by V-16

How could team-bhp help in the implementation of this rule? Firstly, when this rule does not exist?

The first and foremost rule is that buses and other commercial transport vehicles do not come in the extreme right lane. The last lane is for them and the middle one if they need to overtake.Where is that followed. Then there is a speed limit on these buses and in many states there is a mandatory limiter put in these buses. Thats what i think is necessary.

What is so difficult in putting up boards along the highway/expressways that use the extreme right lane only for overtaking. There are idiotic drivers who drive at snail speed and refuse to give you the side, forcing you to overtake them from the left. On top of it all when you pass, you get a dirty glare, as if it is you who is in the wrong. I think the highway and traffic authorities need to check this primary folly made by many a driver, rather than try and catch erring drivers for the stupidest reasons to fill their pockets.

Please educate our nitwit drivers in the rules of the road.

To the best of my knowledge there's no rule which prohibits heavy vehicles from driving in the right-most lane. Yes, the rightmost lane is (supposed to be) reserved for overtaking, but no rules state the heavy vehicles can't use it for overtaking.

Also to the best of my knowledge the expressway does display boards (at least near the toll plazas) advising the heavy vehicles to stick to the left lanes and has boards advising use of right most lanes only while overtaking and also a general advice on following the lane discipline.

There's a speed limit of 80kmph on the expressway, and if I am driving within that limit I can take up the rightmost lane for overtaking. And if then an SUV comes flashing its lights and honking right at my heels, I am not going to oblige. Just like the speed limiters on buses, there should be speed limiters on cars as well. I have frequently been annoyed by these so called 'drivers' who conveniently forget that the 80kmph speed limits apply equally to their Mercs and Audis and Toyotas as it applies to the Marutis and Hyundais.

[Suess]

Originally Posted by honeybee

To the best of my knowledge there's no rule which prohibits heavy vehicles from driving in the right-most lane. Yes, the rightmost lane is (supposed to be) reserved for overtaking, but no rules state the heavy vehicles can't use it for overtaking.

Also to the best of my knowledge the expressway does display boards (at least near the toll plazas) advising the heavy vehicles to stick to the left lanes and has boards advising use of right most lanes only while overtaking and also a general advice on following the lane discipline.

There's a speed limit of 80kmph on the expressway, and if I am driving within that limit I can take up the rightmost lane for overtaking. And if then an SUV comes flashing its lights and honking right at my heels, I am not going to oblige. Just like the speed limiters on buses, there should be speed limiters on cars as well. I have frequently been annoyed by these so called 'drivers' who conveniently forget that the 80kmph speed limits apply equally to their Mercs and Audis and Toyotas as it applies to the Marutis and Hyundais.

No, i think it doesn't apply to them. They have spend million Rs on car so they are not going let the pleasure of those machine down by just stupid things like speed limits and traffic rules!...even if it is going to kill someone(mostly) or them.

yesterday, we were coming back after watching a movie at 1:45hrs on a (good) road within the Chennai City(speed limit 40kmph), i was doing like 48-50kmph, one Toyota Corrolla, i saw it in my left ORVM, with those blinding white lights, overtook us from left at 80-90kmph at least! and just 500mts. slowed down to take a left when it was red. so, that usual for them. if fact these deserted time are only time they can test and taste their super cars.

[Zed]

Thanks, Speedsatya, for having started this discussion.

The larger issue that needs to be urgently addressed is road safety. And one of the biggest challenges, which differentiates the road environment in India, is the sheer variety of vehicles that share limited road space. (Lets keep aside the variety of road users, languages, geographic conditions and so on for the sake of this discussion)

In order to address the larger issue there necessarily has to be specific solutions for sub groups of vehicle types. And Public transport is a sub group rife with opportunities for improvement.

Creating awareness on a national scale even is certainly possible - some instances that come to mind are family planning program(s), TB \ Malaria \ eradication drives and so on, where our official machinery reached out across linguistic lines creating the necessary impact. However the pre requisite that trigged such projects was the authorities coming to terms with the fact that that these were serious issues with potentially devastating consequence for the nation if not addressed in time.

From what I gather our able administrators continue to remain spectators to the epidemic of road fatalities \ injuries.

Even with the best of intentions & resources forums like our \ NGOs can only do so much if the government machinery, or whatever passes off for it these days, chooses to remain silent.

Creating awareness about seat belts in public transport vehicles is certainly part of the solution. But there are pieces of the jigsaw that are as or perhaps more important and some of the earlier posts in this thread have highlighted some pertinent ones.

The point im trying to drive home is that we need to start at step 1 - which is get the authorities to recognize & acknowledge the problem. Unless there is political \ administrative will (and resources) it would be impossible to improve the situation.

[honeybee]

Zed, I had raised this question in my first post, and let me pose this question again: Is this forum, i.e. Team BHP the right place? Is it the objective of TBHP to undertake such initiatives? Perhaps someone such as GTO or one of the other mods can clarify this point.

[V-16]

Honeybee you seem to have taken my post in its strictest sense. I will elaborate below what i meant.

Originally Posted by honeybee

To the best of my knowledge there's no rule which prohibits heavy vehicles from driving in the right-most lane. Yes, the rightmost lane is (supposed to be) reserved for overtaking, but no rules state the heavy vehicles can't use it for overtaking.

It is understood, that BASIC driving courtesy should exist,unfortunately which does not. Though this rule may not be penned down as a clause, its understood that heavy vehicles do not use the extreme right (or left, its country specific) lane for themselves, unless they are overtaking. You must have seen this in your travels abroad. The same goes for driving courtesy when tackling a roundabout. That rule is not penned down wither,its plain courtesy which we have forgotten but which suspiciously is awakened when we drive in another country. The fault lies in the implementation and not so much in the driver. One can see that when the police in Mumbai decided that there would be a zero tolerance attitude towards drunken driving of wearing of seat belts, they cracked down on erring motorists and the results are for anyone to see.

In this context, saying that because there is no rule penned down, we are ignorant and will implement flock mentality on the road is not done. Therefore when i made a mention of the heavy vehicles hogging the lanes meant for cars, the fault also lies in the car drivers who randomly choose to occupy the lanes meant for buses and heavy vehicles.

Also to the best of my knowledge the expressway does display boards (at least near the toll plazas) advising the heavy vehicles to stick to the left lanes and has boards advising use of right most lanes only while overtaking and also a general advice on following the lane discipline.

I dont know which expressway you are speaking of. If you referring to the toll plaza boards, they are just to regulate traffic and not to be mixed with larger vehicles to stick to one side, though it does imply it. The toll plazas have dedicated lanes for cars and buses, how many of us stick to that demarcation?

I have yet to see a single signboard on any expressway i have traveled (western and northern regions) on which mentions to use the right lane only for overtaking. That should be the way. I have driven extensively in many parts of the world and many (not all, mind you) have boards which advice you to keep the extreme right (or left, as the case may be) for overtaking only. These boards i have yet to see on Indian expressways.

There's a speed limit of 80kmph on the expressway, and if I am driving within that limit I can take up the rightmost lane for overtaking. And if then an SUV comes flashing its lights and honking right at my heels, I am not going to oblige.

But you are also only in that lane for overtaking, why would you not oblige? The right lane is for overtaking as it is the lane to be in when you are in speed. Why would you choose to drive you car on that lane even if you are doing the legal limit. Im sorry, it does not give anyone a right to hog a lane just because one is within the legal limit. If one wants to drive slow, get to the slower lane, one has no business hogging the fast lanes and disturbing the faster cars, for whatever reason, especially the one that since the legal limit is 80 so im doing 80 on the fastest lane so others can go fly a kite. That i would term as selfishness.

And for your information i dont think i have ever seen anyone go exactly 80 or below on an expressway. It sounds all righteous here but lets be practical. Im not saying that one should exceed speed limits but even the law will let you go safely to 100-110, when the legal speed is 80.

Just like the speed limiters on buses, there should be speed limiters on cars as well. I have frequently been annoyed by these so called 'drivers' who conveniently forget that the 80kmph speed limits apply equally to their Mercs and Audis and Toyotas as it applies to the Marutis and Hyundais.

You are taking it personally and are not going to change anything. You will only encourage the driver to overtake you from the wrong side, all because you think you are right in hogging a fast lane. Does not make sense. Instead you are now responsible for making another driver go against the rules here just because you are stubborn. You should try driving in the middle or last lane.

Originally Posted by Suess

No, i think it doesn't apply to them. They have spend million Rs on car so they are not going let the pleasure of those machine down by just stupid things like speed limits and traffic rules!...even if it is going to kill someone(mostly) or them.

I think that is a wrong statement you are making and generalizing that any person who can afford an expensive car is a speed goon.

yesterday, we were coming back after watching a movie at 1:45hrs on a (good) road within the Chennai City(speed limit 40kmph), i was doing like 48-50kmph, one Toyota Corrolla, i saw it in my left ORVM, with those blinding white lights, overtook us from left at 80-90kmph at least! and just 500mts. slowed down to take a left when it was red. so, that usual for them. if fact these deserted time are only time they can test and taste their super cars.

It is good to know that there are still people like you who adhere to the speed limits but one cant try and correct erring drivers as one can be a victim. Best to leave the speed hogs alone and not try to correct them as mostly these are kids who are making the most of their day out with their dad's car.

Besides, Toyota is not a super car

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by V-16

. The fault lies in the implementation and not so much in the driver. One can see that when the police in Mumbai decided that there would be a zero tolerance attitude towards drunken driving of wearing of seat belts, they cracked down on erring motorists and the results are for anyone to see.

I wish it were true, as I have yet to see any substantial evidence that drunken driving or other violations have reduced. For e.g. I see about ten to fifteen motorists every day who are busy talking on their mobiles while riding/driving.

Originally Posted by V-16

In this context, saying that because there is no rule penned down, we are ignorant and will implement flock mentality on the road is not done.

I don't agree with this, whatever is not written down is not a law and therefore cannot be enforced. Period. When you see people abroad following the rules, they are doing it because the rules are strictly enforced, and they can be enforced only when they are written down. Lawmakers will usually not leave interpretation to the general public and the rules are quite explicitly worded to include all possible scenarios.

Originally Posted by V-16

Therefore when i made a mention of the heavy vehicles hogging the lanes meant for cars, the fault also lies in the car drivers who randomly choose to occupy the lanes meant for buses and heavy vehicles.

Noted, appreciated and agreed with!

Originally Posted by V-16

I dont know which expressway you are speaking of

I think the Mumbai Pune expressway does have signages to this effect. I shall try and take photos (or have my copassenger take them) if I can, the next time I travel on the e-way.

Originally Posted by V-16

But you are also only in that lane for overtaking, why would you not oblige?

For the simple reason that I am in the process of overtaking another vehicle and I should be allowed to complete the overtaking before I can move back into a left lane. If I am driving at 80kmph and the driver I am trying to overtake is at 78kmph, you must understand that I cannot finish the overtaking within two seconds.

Originally Posted by V-16

That i would term as selfishness.

Irrelevant as I am not talking about 'hogging' the lane.

Originally Posted by V-16

And for your information i dont think i have ever seen anyone go exactly 80 or below on an expressway

That does not mean someone can come at me flashing his lights and honking at 120kmph. I for one don't like that.

Originally Posted by V-16

I think that is a wrong statement you are making and generalizing that any person who can afford an expensive car is a speed goon.

Although that generalization is wrong, I have yet to be honked at and flashed at like this by a driver of a Maruti 800 (and believe me it can go fast!).

Originally Posted by V-16

... as mostly these are kids who are making the most of their day out with their dad's car.

Now that's another generalization which isn't true.

I think it would be a nicer step if we look at the passenger car drivers and start educating them first. On the e-ways at least, it's the car drivers who are one of the most misbehaved and ill-disciplined lot.

[Suess]

Originally Posted by V-16

.......
And for your information i dont think i have ever seen anyone go exactly 80 or below on an expressway. It sounds all righteous here but lets be practical. Im not saying that one should exceed speed limits but even the law will let you go safely to 100-110, when the legal speed is 80.


................


I think that is a wrong statement you are making and generalizing that any person who can afford an expensive car is a speed goon.



It is good to know that there are still people like you who adhere to the speed limits but one cant try and correct erring drivers as one can be a victim. Best to leave the speed hogs alone and not try to correct them as mostly these are kids who are making the most of their day out with their dad's car.

Besides, Toyota is not a super car

Yes, It might have came across as a generalization, but what i meant, was that driving style(in particular; speed) depends a lot on the car/vehicle one is driving. for example, when i drove my Polo in "no limit zone", i never went above 120-130kmph but when i drove BMW X1/Audi A3, I felt comfortable even at 220-230kmph on same highway. So, it's not about being speed goon in good car. It is more about being stupid in any car. I have seen speed goons in M800, Inidcas etc. and even on bikes without any protection whatsoever.

And i know these are not super cars, anyway. I just used the adjective to stress my point that they think they are in some super car which can do fly and break all the rule if they want to.

Law doesn't allow 100-110 in 80 zone, but law enforcers allow you to do anything you like to do. you can go away with patty fines like 500-1000Rs which largely depends on price of your car. would thousand Rs matter to me if i have can afford a car worth multi miliion Rs.!? i don't think so, it doesn't even matter to me now when i can only afford a small car.

I don't try to correct anyone. I try to leave ample space for them to do their stunts. Sooner or later, they will understand, it will come back to them, I just hope that it doesn't come hard way. there is saying that you shouldn't teach anything to anyone until unless you are paid handsomely for it. I believe in that.

[V-16]

Originally Posted by honeybee

I wish it were true, as I have yet to see any substantial evidence that drunken driving or other violations have reduced. For e.g. I see about ten to fifteen motorists every day who are busy talking on their mobiles while riding/driving.

Check the papers and the official number of accidents that have gone down. It was in the papers the other day, i will try and find the cutting. Anyways it is proof enough that these particular violations have decreased and drastically as i experience it frequently. I find that there is hardly anyone willing to drive after a few drinks which was not the case earlier. Go to a party and see how many people are now being chauffeur driven or have designated drivers who dont drink. I have personal experience of this, besides, the figures will speak themselves.

I don't agree with this, whatever is not written down is not a law and therefore cannot be enforced. Period. When you see people abroad following the rules, they are doing it because the rules are strictly enforced, and they can be enforced only when they are written down. Lawmakers will usually not leave interpretation to the general public and the rules are quite explicitly worded to include all possible scenarios.

I am not sure if this not written. It might be if im not mistaken. Will check re that too.

Re rule implements, in fact they do leave loopholes for understanding so that they can squeeze their pound of flesh by misinterpreting the law themselves. Classic example is that of tinted films. Constables have just been extracting money by stopping all and sundry saying that their film is too dark, unless a tint meter of sorts was formed and the tinted glass certificate is now given by tinted film manufacturers.

I think the Mumbai Pune expressway does have signages to this effect. I shall try and take photos (or have my copassenger take them) if I can, the next time I travel on the e-way.

I have not seen even one, maybe they are small and illegible. They should have more such signage to make people more aware.

For the simple reason that I am in the process of overtaking another vehicle and I should be allowed to complete the overtaking before I can move back into a left lane. If I am driving at 80kmph and the driver I am trying to overtake is at 78kmph, you must understand that I cannot finish the overtaking within two seconds.

Agreed, if someone is so impatient that he cannot wait two minutes, well then he deserves not being given way. In any case im sure he can see that you are in the process of overtaking. However if ou continue to be on the overtaking lane than it would not be right to keep the faster car pinned behind.

That does not mean someone can come at me flashing his lights and honking at 120kmph. I for one don't like that.

As per you above explanation i agree.

Although that generalization is wrong, I have yet to be honked at and flashed at like this by a driver of a Maruti 800 (and believe me it can go fast!).

Doing excessive speeds on the Expressway in a Maruti 800 is unsafe too. In any case i dont think one would find a Maruti 800 in the extreme right lane, doing 80, overtaking other cars.

Now that's another generalization which isn't true.

Not a generalization, newspaper reports will prove this, although not all of them can be measured by the same yardstick.

I think it would be a nicer step if we look at the passenger car drivers and start educating them first. On the e-ways at least, it's the car drivers who are one of the most misbehaved and ill-disciplined lot.

I agree. For this, the RTO has to draft stricter norms before giving licences, have stricter implementation procedures and have strict follow ups.

Oone mor epoint id like to add is the strict following of rules like having your brake lights or signal lights working. did you know that there is a fine for that too but where is implemented. Abroad, you will be pulled over and handed over a warning ticket which will turn into a violation if the fault pointed out is not rectified in the time given.

Originally Posted by Suess

It is more about being stupid in any car. I have seen speed goons in M800, Inidcas etc. and even on bikes without any protection whatsoever.

Exactly what im trying to say.

And i know these are not super cars, anyway. I just used the adjective to stress my point that they think they are in some super car which can do fly and break all the rule if they want to.

Of course i know, was just kidding.

Law doesn't allow 100-110 in 80 zone, but law enforcers allow you to do anything you like to do. you can go away with patty fines like 500-1000Rs which largely depends on price of your car. would thousand Rs matter to me if i have can afford a car worth multi miliion Rs.!? i don't think so, it doesn't even matter to me now when i can only afford a small car.

its not about what you can afford, its about the attitude you keep. Im sure when you will (and hope its very soon) be able to drive your own super car your responsible attitude will remain.

[scopriobharath]

Originally Posted by Suess

Law doesn't allow 100-110 in 80 zone, but law enforcers allow you to do anything you like to do. you can go away with patty fines like 500-1000Rs which largely depends on price of your car. would thousand Rs matter to me if i have can afford a car worth multi miliion Rs.!? i don't think so

Well, it is also the attitude of Law enforcers too. A private volvo bus doing 100 kmph in a 60 kmph sone will be left scott-free but a honda city doing 63 kmph at a 60 kmph zone will be fined 500/-. So the rule must be implemented in parity for all road users, irrespective of thier contacts. Only if stringent rules are implemented like license seizure / vehicle seizure (not accpeting bribes), it would deter law breakers.

[Gansan]

If all operators are to be pressed to provide seat belts in buses, first the Govt buses should have them. And there should be no standees allowed in the bus. Both are impractical to implement.

They can at least do away with the handrail on top of the seats in many of the city / mofussil buses. The passengers will bang their foreheads right on this rail if there is a crash! And also do away with protruding nuts, levers etc in buses built by STC workshops. What a stupid design!

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by V-16

Check the papers and the official number of accidents that have gone down.

Well, it's just that I don't tend to trust the newspapers much, and it's likely there are instances which go unreported, but anyways if it's having any effect towards safety I am glad.

Originally Posted by V-16

Constables have just been extracting money by stopping all and sundry saying that their film is too dark, unless a tint meter of sorts was formed and the tinted glass certificate is now given by tinted film manufacturers.

I remember a few years back there was a case where a guy was fined for speeding, the cops having a speedgun to prove, and the guy went to court and won the case by arguing the speedgun was not calibrated properly and so its readings could not be relied upon. So I see it not as a loophole in the law, but a flaw in execution. And we don't insist on the cops producing an objective proof of their claims because we don't have time to go to court and get the process set right. Mind you, I am not blaming the motorist but just stating a fact.

Originally Posted by V-16

I agree. For this, the RTO has to draft stricter norms before giving licences, have stricter implementation procedures and have strict follow ups.

Look at the transport vehicles. The drivers have to have a minimum education, the vehicles undergo periodic certification tests and cops regularly seem to stop these vehicles for various reasons. You still find that they are some of the worst followers of traffic rules.

Originally Posted by V-16

One more point I'd like to add is the strict following of rules like having your brake lights or signal lights working. did you know that there is a fine for that too but where is implemented. Abroad, you will be pulled over and handed over a warning ticket which will turn into a violation if the fault pointed out is not rectified in the time given.

Spot on. However the remedy for this is to increase the fines for such violations to some astronomical figures. To the best of my knowledge, no cop today bothers to look at the back of a vehicle (since they are always positioned in the front). The moment you start charging Rs. 10000/- as fine for a non-working light, you will see the situation reversed.

Originally Posted by Gansan

... The passengers will bang their foreheads right on this rail if there is a crash! ...

Oh, I used to do that while dozing off. It didn't need a crash.

[V-16]

Originally Posted by honeybee

Look at the transport vehicles. The drivers have to have a minimum education, the vehicles undergo periodic certification tests and cops regularly seem to stop these vehicles for various reasons. You still find that they are some of the worst followers of traffic rules.

Yes they are the worst of the violators but not because laws dont exist but because of implementation problems. More than half of the older taxis were hackneyed. Their lights never worked (if they had lights) and they almost never had a suspension. Still they passed the RTO test. You will notice even today that the taxis hardly have wipers and their tyres are almost always bald. Strict implementation of rules and follow up to the person who has declared the vehicle for for plying and holding him responsible will correct this problem to a larger extent.

Spot on. However the remedy for this is to increase the fines for such violations to some astronomical figures. To the best of my knowledge, no cop today bothers to look at the back of a vehicle (since they are always positioned in the front). The moment you start charging Rs. 10000/- as fine for a non-working light, you will see the situation reversed.

Lol! that means their bribes also shoot up from 50/- to at least 500/- minimum. Ouch! Will work wonders.

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by V-16

Lol! that means their bribes also shoot up from 50/- to at least 500/- minimum. Ouch! Will work wonders.

If we agree that the implementation of the rules is the problem, then we must incentivise the cops to implement the rules. If the fine for a non-working tail light is Rs. 10000/-, the cop won't let you off with just Rs. 500, mind you. It works out to something like 40%-50% of the fine. And once the cop has charged you a few thousand bucks for a non-working tail light you are not likely to risk it again. You will probably pay a hundred bucks to the mechanic and get the light fixed.

A side effect of this would be there would be a sudden demand for mechanics who can repair such issues, and their rates will shoot up too.