[saket77]

Originally Posted by nemesis86

Yes, the pedal was astonishingly hard. I was going over very rough surface (potholes actually, the ones which run a few feet) and there very pretty big stones (not gravel) when I tried to brake. I do not know what the real reason was as I have experienced this in the past also with the same car, although not so notorious.

I have a feeling that its more of an issue with the vacuum hose or the brake booster. IMO, you should get it checked ASAP as you are losing the ' vacuum power' from the power brake system. Either the Vacuum hose pipe which carries the vacuum from the engine to the booster has a faulty valve or a leak or the brake booster needs attention. You can check the vacuum valve by opening the pipe from both ends and blowing air from each end one by one. From one end, the air should blow without any resistance, while the air flow should be blocked while blowing from another. However, professional assistance is probably what you require to be safe.

Originally Posted by Reinhard

This might be my last post on this argument as otherwise I'll end up in the bad books of many fellows for being OT!

He he...Not at all mate, its just a discussion on one aspect of car safety about which this thread is all about. ABS, no doubt should be a must have for all cars, I fully support the system. Just was pointing a drawback and a driver must be prepared for it, else one may panic.

I will also like to have more discussions on the monocoque of the cars we drive. Thanks,

Saket

[Reinhard]

Okay Saket, monocoque is too techie for a guy as naive as me, that too without access to a CAD/CAM and CFD application.
But the monocoques seem to be doing a pretty good job looking at the number of people surviving pretty nasty road accidents. Of course there are thousands of sad fatalities no doubt. But the number of people walking away is also significant.

Again its a bit of statistical nightmare. A kei spec monocoque (say WagonR or AStar) will perform poorer in a head-on highway crash compared to a Punto (for example). But then, its built to the cost & size/weight restrictions. The car is primarily aimed at city use. So we can't exactly expect a roll-cage like performance from the monocoque there.

Another safety feature sorely missed on non-top variant hatchbacks is the rear wash+wipe. Nobody really cares about these, but its a real boon in rains to all hatchback drivers who regularly use the IRVM. It should be available as at least an optional add-on fitting on all variants which don't come with OEM fitment.

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Thats my question. WHY will the braking distance of ABS car be more in "non slippery" situations compared to non ABS?
.

This is a video that i found linked in this forum itself.cant find the post on my phone.

It is similar to the situation experienced by you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnjszE3NS9E&sns=em

,

[saket77]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Again its a bit of statistical nightmare. A kei spec monocoque (say WagonR or AStar) will perform poorer in a head-on highway crash compared to a Punto (for example).

More on it please. Please enlighten me about the difference in various kinds of monocoque offered on Indian cars. I am also told that Tata Nano is a safer vehicle than the M800. I would like to know why? Agreed that M800 is almost 30 years old, but still has Japanese genes from that era. I may be wrong, but is it really that a Nano is a safer bet? At least the general construction of 800 feels more sturdier & robust as compared to Nano. (Really don't intend to start an 800-Nano comparison)

How about other cars like Indica, Zen, tall boys like the Santro, Wagon-R, Estilo, etc.

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Another safety feature sorely missed on non-top variant hatchbacks is the rear wash+wipe. Nobody really cares about these, but its a real boon in rains to all hatchback drivers who regularly use the IRVM. It should be available as at least an optional add-on fitting on all variants which don't come with OEM fitment.

True. The wash wipe feature should be a must for the hatchbacks. Due to their construction and the law of physics, all dirt & dust tends to accumulate on the rear windshield of the hatchbacks.

[delix]

I am currently using Swift Dzire (Zdi variant) for the purpose of daily commute between office and home. The main reason for choosing the Z-variant over V-variant, was ABS and Airbags, otherwise the V - variant suited my budget. And trust me ABS does help considering the condition of Indian roads.
Another important aspect of safety on roads is definitely the skill level of people behind wheels. Driving responsibly is one of the key aspects of road safety in my opinion.
I can site an example: On my way home to office everyday I notice Trax, Sumos, etc (all carrying IT employees), driving so recklessly. Their car is always loaded to the maximum capacity and they tail gate other vehicles like mad rush. I wonder, how they handle emergency braking situations. These cars/vehicles hardly come with ABS/EBD/Airbags.

[Reinhard]

Talking of safety, shouldn't these points also get a bit of attention -

1. Stalk positions. Shouldn't the light & wiper stalks be RHD aligned as a rule? Why should we have to make do with the cut-paste mod job of the EU/NA spec steering column?

2. Wipers - Thankfully not any more, but the old Logan had LHD oriented wipers. Now come on...

3. Reverse lamps. I feel they are a MUST on both rear lamp clusters. A reverse lamp on single side can be missed from some rear 3 quarter angles. I feel MSIL (except SX4 IIRC) & Tata do a good job here. While some other "premium" players are saving on a pair of bulbs by dropping 1 reverse & 1 fog lamp.

4. Side turn indicators. There needs to be a bit of a regulation on the design of these. On some cars (like i10 Magna onwards) where the indicator is mounted on ORVM, it is not easily visible to a biker on side at day. It is one of the most important lamps on the car as it does the job of indicating our intentions to turn to the person who is probably nearest to us AND is possibly in our blind spot too.

5. Not exactly safety in accident, but the outright lack of individual door lock buttons on some newer cars is startling. The electric gizmo locks is good to watch in a James Bond movie, but an individual, manual override lock/unlock button might turn out to be life saving some day.

[venkateshkm]

Our govt is busy inventing ways to make money from the industry, money of the bribe kind. Look at how they introduce and withdraw the helmet rules, how they wanted to redefine the small car length to 3.8M, how they will now milk the CV guys with the ABS rule etc. The politicians are least bothered with road safety because they drive in a cavalcade.

As for people, they are more keen on audio controls on steering, body coloured OVRMs etc. Traffic police have safety awareness week once a year and in that week they penalize more number of people than in other weeks. They put out banners and maybe have a seminar too. They stop people on the road based on the road users attire and age!!

So safety is not a well understood or priority topic in our society and so the vehicle manufacturers get away with a bare bone product on the street. But things will change since by way of differentiation, new brands and products will have to come with some additional features and looks like Airbags are the new fad.

[shinuak]

Originally Posted by julupani

Well, that is difficult to do because safety features do cost money. Making such features mandatory will have an effect on the prices and thus on overall sales. And if you see, the Indian automotive and automotive component industry is a major contributor to the Indian economy, and is heavily linked to a lot of other industries directly and indirectly. And at this point of time when the car makers are facing a huge down turn, along with the economy, economic constraints probably make such a decision a very very tough one..........

Well, I disagree on this one, anyone who can afford to buy a car, should be able to spend a few thousands more for basic safety features like ABS and airbags. Else some amount of subsidy should be given by government and later on reimburse from the buyer indirectly through additional premium on insurance , if it is too much load on the exchequer. This is just one of the few examples and there are several ways to deal with this, and by adopting such ways govt should come up with a legal mandate to have ABS and airbags mandatory in all vehicles. OT, if the govt can make even the poor to buy a set top box to watch TV, then this should also be done.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Talking of safety, shouldn't these points also get a bit of attention -

4. Side turn indicators. There needs to be a bit of a regulation on the design of these. On some cars (like i10 Magna onwards) where the indicator is mounted on ORVM, it is not easily visible to a biker on side at day. It is one of the most important lamps on the car as it does the job of indicating our intentions to turn to the person who is probably nearest to us AND is possibly in our blind spot too.

I stand a little corrected here. Paid attention to all such designs since yesterday and most are properly visible, with a dedicated LED at the edge aimed at vehicles right besides. Turned out that the colleague who's i10 I am used to look at, seems to have dead LEDs there, so no light on the mirror edge.

[Oranger]

Bang on, great thread guys!

One more small but important feature is the seat belt alarm, which I think would cost close to nothing but helps the less aware and negligent ones push towards safety. For instance, I used to drive a esteem LXi a couple of years ago, wherein I merely thought of fastening the seat belt as the car never asked me to.
Lately I started using a Linea Emotion pack, stuffed with safety features. As and when the speed exceeds 20 kmph, the doors lock automatically and a harsh alarm strikes your ears, which is rather unbearable and continues till you fasten the seat belt. Now the situation is, even if I'm driving a santro or say a maruti 800, I fasten the seat belt even before starting the car. This is how a small feature can help people change their perspective of looking at safety while driving. Kudos to fiat for their attention on such details.

[kumards]

Originally Posted by shinuak

Else some amount of subsidy should be given by government and later on reimburse from the buyer indirectly through additional premium on insurance.

This set me thinking... I know that insurers offer a rebate on the insurance premium for vehicles equipped anti-theft devices. Do they offer a similar rebate for safety equipment like airbags and ABS? If they do that and if the rebate is significant enough, people would be motivated to consider paying extra for those 'features'. When all else fails, money talks.

[gk01]

Originally Posted by kumards

This set me thinking... I know that insurers offer a rebate on the insurance premium for vehicles equipped anti-theft devices.

Yes, because there is a lesser chance for theft so the insurance may never be used which means the Insurance issuer makes money.

Originally Posted by kumards

Do they offer a similar rebate for safety equipment like airbags and ABS?

Airbags only protect us, not the car. So again, the insurance issuer is not bothered.

Originally Posted by kumards

If they do that and if the rebate is significant enough, people would be motivated to consider paying extra for those 'features'. When all else fails, money talks.

No one will be more concerned about us than our own selves. Rebate is only an external influence, the motivation for safety needs to come from within.

It probably boils down to who should drive the change - the manufacturer or the consumer. Or maybe, Both.

[virtualdanger]

Originally Posted by EagleEye

Excellent point. Most Indians are penny wise, pound foolish when it comes to these things so enforcement of certain features would go a long way.

Agreed; Indians are so largely cost driven, that an extra cost for safety features would be skipped by most. So 'penny wise and pound foolish' kinda nails it. Variants loaded to the gills with safety features, which obviously comes at a higher price will always see low volumes, if not be discontinued all-together in time.

Add to that the point that safety features are seen as luxury. A feature like ABS is indicated on the back of the car, and potential buyers are more likely to buy the higher model with ABS for its prestige value, than its safety benefits. There is perceived pride in buying the higher variant; what others see matters more than the safety benefit.

[kumards]

Originally Posted by gk01

the motivation for safety needs to come from within.

Well, that's the ideal scenario. But we don't live in an ideal world. How many motorbike riders would wear a helmet if it was not mandatory?

[gk01]

Originally Posted by kumards

Well, that's the ideal scenario. But we don't live in an ideal world. How many motorbike riders would wear a helmet if it was not mandatory?

I had the same question sometime back and actually went on to count the heads with the helmets on at a signal. The rule is not being enforced here, no wonder the count was less than 10%

That's exactly my point. External influence only helps in the short term.

IMHO seeking safety is not Utopian, its just plain common sense