[saket77]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

I for one have always believed 'Made-for-India' is just corporate-speak for 'this won't sell anywhere else'.

In our land of 'kitna deti hai', you can't really expect anything else. We get what we demand. What fraction of car sales are top-end variants? Minuscule.

On a broader note, I agree with what you have to say and I will generalize the Indians on 'kitna deti hai' thing because we have to pay about 75 bucks a liter for fuel, which is surely not negligible for most of us.

What I want to ask is that how much the FE will be affected if the manufacturer adds an ABS, Airbags and a more robust platform? I am sure, not more than a km or two per litre.
The main issue is the higher initial price that the customer has to pay for the car itself and what I believe is that making them mandatory on every car will surely not affect as much as it affects the prices now due to economy of scales.

Regards.

[k_ajay]

Originally Posted by veyron_head

I own the k10, my only car and daily drive.

As far as safety goes, the less said the better. The car is a hoot to drive, alright. But the brakes need an elephant's leg to stop the car. I could have stretched my budget and sure bought it if K10 came in a zxi avatar with ABS. But there was none on offer. Maruti's widow maker strategy of building powerful cars with poor brakes is contuining with most of their cars: k10, Swift, Dzire (Non abs versions of Swift and dzire).

And now this news about its crash safety. I will sure think twice before taking my family on the highway in this car again.

As an owner, instead of acting silly and defending the car it is refreshing to see you taking a smart and educated approach after knowing the limitation of the car you own. Appreciate your thinking.

Maruti's widow maker strategy --> ROFL.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

I for one have always believed 'Made-for-India' is just corporate-speak for 'this won't sell anywhere else'.

In our land of 'kitna deti hai', you can't really expect anything else. We get what we demand. What fraction of car sales are top-end variants? Minuscule.

Too true and you nailed the corporate speak translation. Largely, made-for-India has simply meant cheap and low cost, because that's what the masses in India want.

And you're right; as long as WE start looking at safety as a NEED and demand for it, surely no manufacturer is going to care to create any such supply (demand, supply and all that, right).

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by saket77

On a broader note, I agree with what you have to say and I will generalize the Indians on 'kitna deti hai' thing because we have to pay about 75 bucks a liter for fuel, which is surely not negligible for most of us.

What I want to ask is that how much the FE will be affected if the manufacturer adds an ABS, Airbags and a more robust platform? I am sure, not more than a km or two per litre.
The main issue is the higher initial price that the customer has to pay for the car itself and what I believe is that making them mandatory on every car will surely not affect as much as it affects the prices now due to economy of scales.

Regards.

One can excuse the poorer entry-level buyer for being cost conscious, but my issue is with the buyer group that can afford a better car, but goes with an inferior option for other considerations.

I'll give you an example.

On of my friends is buying an Amaze Petrol S-MT. The person is single, lives alone and is buying the car for single-person city use (read: definitely doesn't need the boot). I suggested they go for the Brio AT top-end instead (same platform, better equipped car), but the person would rather have the prestige that comes with the 'big car' (someone else from their group is also buying an Amaze, but the top-end) rather than buying the top-end hatch variant of what's essentially the same car. The two variants (Amaze S-MT with extra accessories and Brio top-end are roughly the same price range, give or take a few tens of thousands).

I tried reasoning a couple of times, then gave up. No arguing with a buyer who has his priorities all wrong. Sadly, this is the story of 9/10 Indian car buyers, esp. the lower and intermediate price ranges.

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

It;s About local laws IMO . there are none in india so we get fleeced by everybody in the world . there is a reason why Suzuki closed it's US business & mahindra is struggling to enter US market big time.

Governments everywhere are of+by+for the businesses. It the presence of strong private agencies, like one in US (I think it started as a auto mag, but now is a Bible for the car buying general public), which work parallel to the NHTSA & have often forced the car maker to improve products. A recent example is the US Civic that had to be improved after it downgraded its rating.

This is TBHP come to fore & play an important role in Indian Auto horizon.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

See, that's applicable for every car out there, not just the XUV. Every model tested there has been the one with more than 2 airbags!
.
.
.
P.S.: Scorpio has a 3* rating.

Raj... I believe we are on same page, & with you, go for the W8 instead of W6... when in rome do as the romans do.

I still, however, believe that it is the responsibility of the buyers to buy a recent product which is crash tested because it is his & his family's life which is at stake. But, at times budget plays a spoilsport in may cases. Best decision would be to go for safest vehicle in budget or defer purchase till one has amassed sufficient funds for safe vehicle for himself/ family.

It is better being late rather than being Mr.Late.

[penpavan]

I can connect with this thread. My uncle owns K10 Alto and last week the car met with an accident. There was a Volvo bus that just kissed the car from rear end (left side) when both were moving. Of course I was not present when the incident took place but going by what my uncle says, it was very subtle touch.
But the damage that car suffered is big. The boot got crumpled and is now undergoing a complete replacement along with body work until the rear door.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

Governments everywhere are of+by+for the businesses. It the presence of strong private agencies, like one in US (I think it started as a auto mag, but now is a Bible for the car buying general public), which work parallel to the NHTSA & have often forced the car maker to improve products. A recent example is the US Civic that had to be improved after it downgraded its rating.

This is TBHP come to fore & play an important role in Indian Auto horizon.



Raj... I believe we are on same page, & with you, go for the W8 instead of W6... when in rome do as the romans do.

I still, however, believe that it is the responsibility of the buyers to buy a recent product which is crash tested because it is his & his family's life which is at stake. But, at times budget plays a spoilsport in may cases. Best decision would be to go for safest vehicle in budget or defer purchase till one has amassed sufficient funds for safe vehicle for himself/ family.

It is better being late rather than being Mr.Late.

Agree with you.

Manufacturers fall in line in other markets because the customer is conscious of what he's buying and there are strong, independent bodies to make sure the manufacturer/product image takes a hit if they try to cut corners. No such setup in India, so we're in a situation were the manufacturer dictates by-and-large what's in the market, and are often reluctant to fix issues which would warrant an instant product recall in more evolved markets.

Absolutely agree on the purchase bit too. Buy the 'best' you can afford, not the 'biggest'. If you can't, better be late in buying than be 'late' Mr. X because what you bought isn't safe enough.

[akhilesh51]

I fail to see why people are defending the vehicle just because it caters to low-income buyers of India.

To all those people who see safety as equating to ABS & Airbags, it isn't just that. If you were to study NCAP test parameters, you'll realise that the construction of the vehicle, design, and materials play pivotal role in defining safety of a vehicle.

It is these parameters that Maruti Suzuki has failed to address regularly and consistently. The 'kitna deti hai' attitude has led them to design excessively light vehicles with poor cabin structure and deplorable crash stability levels and that is what earns them a big, fat '0'.

Even Nano, which caters to a segment even below Alto K10 has body construction, and crash safety standards that have made it eligible to pass european norms. In fact, Tata is the only manufacture to have in-house crash test facility in India.

C'mon Maruti Suzuki, you gotta learn from this and really pull up your socks. You are the most trusted auto brand in India and basic safety is the least you can provide to your loyal customers.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by akhilesh51

Even Nano, which caters to a segment even below Alto K10 has body construction, and crash safety standards that have made it eligible to pass european norms. In fact, Tata is the only manufacture to have in-house crash test facility in India.

C'mon Maruti Suzuki, you gotta learn from this and really pull up your socks. You are the most trusted auto brand in India and basic safety is the least you can provide to your loyal customers.

+1. Nano is roomy as a Wagon-R & lighter than the K10 so its not like we are sacrificing safety to get good FE....which was being suggested earlier.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by akhilesh51

I fail to see why people are defending the vehicle just because it caters to low-income buyers of India.

To all those people who see safety as equating to ABS & Airbags, it isn't just that. If you were to study NCAP test parameters, you'll realise that the construction of the vehicle, design, and materials play pivotal role in defining safety of a vehicle.

It is these parameters that Maruti Suzuki has failed to address regularly and consistently. The 'kitna deti hai' attitude has led them to design excessively light vehicles with poor cabin structure and deplorable crash stability levels and that is what earns them a big, fat '0'.

Even Nano, which caters to a segment even below Alto K10 has body construction, and crash safety standards that have made it eligible to pass european norms. In fact, Tata is the only manufacture to have in-house crash test facility in India.

C'mon Maruti Suzuki, you gotta learn from this and really pull up your socks. You are the most trusted auto brand in India and basic safety is the least you can provide to your loyal customers.

Agreed that safety is above and beyond just gadgets. Actually, badly implemented/integrated gadgets can do more harm than good, so we need to be careful in the decision-making process.

But we as a market are not even buying the 'best' available to us, which itself is pretty poor compared to what's available globally, because of our misplaced cost-consciousness. We'll readily spend money on non-essential things, but suddenly pinch pennies when it comes to the important (possibly life-saving) stuff.

As for Maruti, they're milking their 'brand' for all its worth. I was shocked reading GTO's review of the current-gen Swift. The ultra-thin glass, practically useless boot-space, intentionally inadequate brakes on the L & V variants (which incidentally happens to be the one that sells most). But does all that stop the average Indian buyer from buying such ill-engineered cars? No Sir! It's VFM, however convoluted our definition of VFM may be.

[hothatchaway]

Originally Posted by k_ajay

As an owner, instead of acting silly and defending the car it is refreshing to see you taking a smart and educated approach after knowing the limitation of the car you own. Appreciate your thinking.

.

I am a K10 owner and while its appropriate to appear 'restrained' and 'balanced' for the sake of appearing 'dignified' pardon me if what I'm about to write appears impassioned since its not a tube of toothpaste or a can of soda, but a passenger vehicle which represents the fruits of my labour and is an integral part of me and my families by dint of the memories that a personal vehicle comes to be associated with it. Feeling like a leper because I happen to own a particular (and very popular) make of car, add to that the trouble taken to arrive at the decision of buying it, not to mention the monetary investment, does not make for a very pleasant acceptance of the situation. The referred to limitation here is not a minor one, I would not want to fell like am stepping into a warzone every time I take my car out.

Originally Posted by veyron_head

I own the k10, my only car and daily drive. When I was in the market a year ago to replace my 800, I was trying to choose between the Wagon R and Alto K10. I chose the K10 based on two factors: One, I thought K10 would be a lot more safer from a construction standpoint as its a fresh new car from the maruti stable built along the lines of today's modern cars. Two, all reviews including TBHP's predicted good mileage in real world conditions. I couldn't care less about its power, I am a sedate driver.

My k10 has never given anything above 12 KMPL in the city, with about 50% AC (my 800 used to consistenly give 18 KMPL). As far as safety goes, the less said the better. The car is a hoot to drive, alright. But the brakes need an elephant's leg to stop the car. I could have stretched my budget and sure bought it if K10 came in a zxi avatar with ABS. But there was none on offer. Maruti's widow maker strategy of building powerful cars with poor brakes is contuining with most of their cars: k10, Swift, Dzire (Non abs versions of Swift and dzire).

And now this news about its crash safety. I will sure think twice before taking my family on the highway in this car again.

I and am sure scores of other K10 buyers had a similar train of thought while deciding on this model viz fresh design leading to current (albeit basic) safety features, FE, performance and the like. Value conscious we may be but I would doubt that a sane individual would plump for something which is a potential 'widow maker' as you put it. The fact that people are willing to pay more for better performance, comfort et al means that the cheapest common denominator is not always at play, at least not for those who can afford it, otherwise our roads would only have sported Altos and Nanos. To lump the Indian auto buying category as 'cheap' with scant respect for safety conveys an incomplete picture, I would put it down more to lack of awareness of what an ABS can do for e.g. After all, what % of the Indian passenger car owners are members of communities like TBHP or the like?

Instead of running this model to the ground, we need to understand the issue in context and to that effect I would like to propose the following questions which are worth reflecting on (especially K10 owners)

• Is this test in Latin America sufficient for us to conclude that K10 is the most ‘unsafe’ car in India?
• Is this applicable only for K10 or also to the regular Alto and if yes, we are potentially talking about a fifth of all passenger vehicles on our roads being patently unsafe?
• How safe are the other cars from the Maruti stable? Since Alto/K10 is almost a category by itself, how much ‘safer’ (if at all) is a Wagon R, A*, Swift et al? If the answer is in degrees then its acceptable owing to the higher price they command, if the answer is Alto/K10 is unsafe period and the other checks the ‘basic’ boxes, then we have a problem
• This leads me to ponder on the fundamental question, what is an ‘acceptable’ degree of safety/crash worthiness for cars in India; how do we define that in the absence of NCAP like certifications available elsewhere? While its intuitive and inevitable, is it fair to consider random test samples done elsewhere for a select number of Indian models when we are assuming that some ‘made to export’ models use better material for stocks meant for export. How do we know for e.g. that model x in India, which is both exported and available in India, has not achieved a better rating on its ‘export’ quality stocks while peddling stocks sporting an inferior quality of sheet metal in India
• Finally the damning question, if a Nano, which in terms of price point seems to be a gazillion segments below even the Alto, sports a far superior safety rating, then this is a scam of epic proportions. The K10, fun to drive while it is, is no V8 and the pricing difference cannot be explained in performance alone. Considering both the Nano and the Alto are Spartan in every respect, what explanation does MSIL have for peddling something so shoddy? This mind you, is assuming that the ratings which we are talking about, represents a 2x/3x qualititative difference in safety for Nano and Alto models available in India

Am not out of questions but have run out of words to express them. I do not plan to take this lying down if this is true, but would like to be absolutely sure that the first two questions are true before I damn my precious possession which so far has been the highlight of my acquisitions. I can live with the fact that m K10 may not have the structural rigidity of a model which commands a much higher price point as that is the truth of basic economics. I will leave people to draw the conclusion whether that makes me a ‘cheapo’ as this is a democracy and we have a right to our opinions. But lets ask some of these probing questions and determine if this a feature of most cars in the Indian passenger car industry and the difference is in degrees and K10 owners need not feel like pushing their cars off the nearest cliff.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by julupani

Of all the vehicles you have mentioned its only the Bolero which can be severely bad.

I say so because:

1. Rexton, Vista, Scorpio, Safari either are or were sold in Europe. Thus they must have at least passed the safety norms, if not done great with respect to safety.

Hi,
Sometime back MM tried to introduce in the US market a small diesel pickup. Could not because it consistently failed safety norms. What platform was it based on?

Regards
Sutripta

[Chetan_Rao]

@hothatchaway
This isn't just about the Alto, or Maruti Suzuki alone for that matter. The Indian automotive consumer is getting majorly shortchanged by almost all players in the market.

We either get stripped-down models, or pay a huge premium over effective global prices for the same models elsewhere (when available).

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

• Is this test in Latin America sufficient for us to conclude that K10 is the most ‘unsafe’ car in India?
• Is this applicable only for K10 or also to the regular Alto and if yes, we are potentially talking about a fifth of all passenger vehicles on our roads being patently unsafe?

Its just a test where a car crashes against a wall. Basic!

Real life situations are worse because cars usually end up submarining under trucks. (which have no under-ride bumpers in India)

Check the accident thread to see the different types of scenarios. The fatal ones are all 'head-on' & T-bone collisions with heavier vehicles

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Hi,
Sometime back MM tried to introduce in the US market a small diesel pickup. Could not because it consistently failed safety norms. What platform was it based on?

It was just a Scorp with longer wheelbase and pickup bed instead of back seat. IIRC it could not meetT2B5 ...US emissions standards.

Not sure about crash..but IIRC you can still sell cars with 1 or 2 star rating...if you can survive the media beating & humiliation. The passing grade is below that

[Sutripta]

^^^
Thanks, though that was a rhetorical question!
IIRC it was crash test norms.
Given their subsequent problems (legal) with the US dealer they had appointed, am sure all the dirty laundry is there somewhere on public record.

Regards
Sutripta

[julupani]

Originally Posted by Mpower

Its just a test where a car crashes against a wall. Basic! Real life situations are worse because cars usually end up submarining under trucks. (which have no under-ride bumpers in India)

The test is actually not a full head on collision, but a 40% offset one, ie only 40% of the front width actually hits the wall/block.

A bit OT, but all new trucks sold in India do actually have front, rear and side under-run bumpers for quite a few years now. Though I agree there are still a lot of old trucks on the road which dont have it. Hopefully by the end of the decade the older trucks would have been phased out.