[tiagoatrix]

Wonderful news, Request mods to move it to home page for more news.

I want to sound optimistic here, increase the production for components like ABS, ESP, etc and bring the cost down significantly. This will eventually help keep the final car reasonable, especially for cars below 10L.

One person cannot implement safety across the country, it needs a collective effort. Government and manufactures will have to work together. GOVERNMENT SHOULD INCENTIVIZE PARTS RELATED TO SAFETY .

Bharat NCAP should set stringent crash rating parameters. Hope the government and car makers will give us safer cars.

SAFETY IN CARS IS SAFE TEA AT HOME

[Aditya]

Bharat NCAP : India-specific crash test norms announced - Posts moved to a new thread.

[Hispaniola]

Dont see the need of another standard when a perfect one is already available.

I hope this is not a cover-up for Maruti cars that have 0 GNCAP rating but might get 5* Bharat NCAP rating.

Also 6 airbags means another 20-30% jump in price of Alto and likes.

Given all this, a 0 star 4 wheeler is still safer than a two wheeler in India in many ways and increased prices are not going to help anyone to switch.

Don't know which side I want to take!

[shancz]

Originally Posted by ron178

I think Bharat NCAP should be the top priority (which is why I am thrilled about the announcement), and six airbags, AEB, etc. should be part of the evaluation. In a few years when they become more affordable thanks to Bharat NCAP, a mandate won't be a problem.

IMO a mix of ratings and special rankings seem like a good solution. Something like IIHS's Top Safey Pick, TSP+ and more on similar lines for outstanding performers who incorporate latest tech while the ratings focus on passive safety and essential kit for active safety.

[Rohan265]

Originally Posted by ron178

What NCAPs do is bridge that gap by accelerating the 'trickling down' of new safety technology to mass segments affordably. I'm just not yet convinced that the Government has understood the difference between regulation and NCAP ratings.

I think Bharat NCAP should be the top priority (which is why I am thrilled about the announcement), and six airbags, AEB, etc. should be part of the evaluation. In a few years when they become more affordable thanks to Bharat NCAP, a mandate won't be a problem.

I agree with the point that NCAP is an effective tool to keep manufacturers on their toes and brings the costs down. However, NCAP has achieved success in developed countries because the tests were designed using the crash data in the respective country. NHTSA used NASS and FARS to start the first NCAP, EURO NCAP started with the help of CCIS, GIDAS, and other European Databases. Japan had ITARDA. The reason these countries have similar crash tests is because all of them predominantly have/had car fatalities (in run-off or T-bone crash configurations) and have similar roads.
Similar tests were adopted by Latin NCAP and ASEAN NCAP at the start of the first UN Decade for Road Safety. Although these regions have been stringent in testing cars over the past decade, I believe they have now started to incorporate their own crash data (MIROS, etc.) and are focusing on their own vulnerable road users i.e. two-wheelers and pedestrians. The ASEAN NCAP now also includes multiple tests for motorcycle safety.

Coming to India, the whole NCAP hoopla started when Global NCAP tested some vehicles sold in India based on crash tests designed for other countries. The poor performance of these vehicles was rightly highlighted in media and the news spread like wildfire. GNCAP should be praised for creating safety awareness in Indian car buyers. This should have led to the creation of government-run or funded crash tests. Instead, Indian manufacturers saw this as a good marketing pitch and started designing vehicles to get a good NCAP score.
On paper, a 5-star rated car looks good. However, crash data from India shows that the 5-star rating might save you in around 20% of crashes involving cars. Even from my professional experience, I can say that I have come across very few crashes that will fit NCAP test conditions or even crashes in which car occupants sustained injuries because the car's body collapsed. Car occupants in India primarily die due to truck underrides, rollovers, and impacts with narrow objects such as poles, jersey barriers, etc. Even the injuries in rollovers and objects are primarily due to a lack of belt usage. No 5-star car is going to save the occupants from these crashes.
The whole NCAP rating thing may even backfire because down the line once we start having fatalities in 5-star rated cars. The government and manufacturers may face fire from customers who paid a premium for these cars and still had fatalities. The average Indian car buyer does not care about the technical details of an airbag deployment, or crash test speeds, etc.

So, if the government does bring about the Bharat NCAP, it should use Indian crash data to design the testing parameters. Otherwise, we will have tests that only focus on about 20% of car crashes. In addition, cars are involved in a small fraction of crashes in India. A classic case of missing the forest for the trees. While we keep on improving cars, we will continue to lose lakhs of two-wheeler riders and pedestrians each year.

P.S: A case can be made for ADAS in preventing crashes. However, the real-world effectiveness of ADAS has only been recorded in developed countries (mainly car-to-car or car-to-truck crashes). European countries are working on checking ADAS for crashes with bicycles and pedestrians. It might take at least a decade to understand the effectiveness of ADAS in India.

Originally Posted by ron178

I highly doubt most passenger cars are engineered to maintain survival space in a crash with such an unusual configuration that not even the most advanced NCAPs test for. But it would require a thorough post-crash analysis. NCAP tests cover daily urban and interurban scenarios, which still claim a lot more lives than people think.

I guess I did not explain my point clearly. What I felt from the minister's comments was that the inclusion of all these safety measures was reactionary and for appeasement. The minister commented that "six-airbags" would have saved the lives of those young doctors. I agree that there was no technical backing to his comments.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by Rohan265

I believe they have now started to incorporate their own crash data (MIROS, etc.) and are focusing on their own vulnerable road users i.e. two-wheelers and pedestrians. The ASEAN NCAP now also includes multiple tests for motorcycle safety.

I really, really hope they study crash data for India instead of blindly syncing with a foreign NCAP regulation. As you pointed out the MIROS-UTAC motorcycle safety tests are region-specific and based on crash data, which is impressive. (Also impressive are MIROS' efforts at cracking down on driving schools who hand out undeserved licences, something that would be of great help in India). It's also why I'm happy this will be a local Bharat NCAP and not linked to Global NCAP. As much as I respect the latter, thanks to the FIA links, their ultimate goal would be to synchronise India protocols with Euro NCAP sometime in the future, like they're doing with Latin NCAP.

Originally Posted by Rohan265

crash data from India shows that the 5-star rating might save you in around 20% of crashes involving cars.

That is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks a lot for sharing this. I had no idea we had this kind of data for India at all. And it does not look good.

It needs to be recalled that most of the research work for Euro NCAP is done by TNO and data collected in the Netherlands and other parts of Europe. The actual figures may be (in fact, as you pointed out below, they are) very different for India. For example, the test speed and overlap were chosen at 64km/h and 40% because it was a 50th percentile crash speed for fatal injuries. In Europe. Even the deformable barrier (the blue element) is built to represent a typical European family car.

Similarly with the IIHS: they studied data for the USA and concluded that crashes where the longitudinal beams were missed (the '<21% overlap' in the document you linked) were quite common, so they did experimental tests and then launched a consumer test based on it. Euro NCAP still maintains that those crashes are not common in Europe. Similarly with NHTSA's FMVSS 208-Unbelted test.

Originally Posted by Rohan265

Even the injuries in rollovers and objects are primarily due to a lack of belt usage.

The seatbelt usage figure you have mentioned is shockingly low, even lower than I would have thought.

I would also be interested in knowing child restraint usage figures. That would probably be far lower. I've known of an infant who should be sitting rearward facing in a Group I seat, instead standing unrestrained on the front passenger seat with an active airbag. It's really hard to convince many people that CRSs are of any use at all.

Originally Posted by Rohan265

So, if the government does bring about the Bharat NCAP, it should use Indian crash data to design the testing parameters. Otherwise, we will have tests that only focus on about 20% of car crashes.

Unfortunately, there also seems to be a sort of a sense of acceptance of EU standards as supreme. It has already happened with the regulatory crash tests (AIS 98 and 99) which are almost identical to ECE regulations (94 and 95) with diluted rules for conformity of production. Even the news article seems to claim that Bharat NCAP would be similar to Euro NCAP. The problem is that anything countering copying ECE/Euro NCAP will likely be dismissed as an excuse from the industry to delay introduction.

Originally Posted by Rohan265

However, NCAP has achieved success in developed countries

I was referring to the overall concept of an NCAP. Even if it's a crash designed for India, Bharat NCAP could create a market for a good performance in that kind of crash using a star rating, then make it more commonplace and finally pass it on to regulation. The actual tests may be different but I think the concept still holds.

Originally Posted by Rohan265

The whole NCAP rating thing may even backfire because down the line once we start having fatalities in 5-star rated cars.

It's actually already started to backfire and is causing problems. The bigger problem is the growing belief that cars have some sort of an aura around them called 'build quality' which can help in all types of crashes, and that NCAP tests are a measure of this. It's hard for many to understand that they are engineered to withstand certain types of impact. That same load path that prevented intrusion in an offset frontal crash might have not even been engaged in, say, an underride. If a car somehow manages an impact it was not designed for, many assume it's also going to repeat that in other crashes of the same kind because of some sort of 'inherent build quality'.

I've seen an article from a fairly reputed publication pointing out which cars are safest for children, and get this, the child in the banner is not restrained, and is looking out of the window. NCAPs need to make it clear with a prominent disclaimer that the results are valid only for the child seats and installation position used in the test.

(Translated: "With regards to child safety, these are India's safest cars, they have achieved a four star rating, these companies are ahead" "A safe car can prevent or mitigate any type of undesirable situation in an accident".)

I'll still admit that I'm not going to stop looking at current NCAP results with interest, I still think that protection in 40% offset crashes is better than nothing, and it's a very repeatable test that can be used to keep track of what manufacturers are selling over the world. It's just that as long as there's going to be a permanent Bharat NCAP with full-fledged funding they need to study data before just adopting Euro NCAP protocols, because if you ask me, the Bharat NCAP thing seems quite rushed. I will let Global NCAP off the hook on that because they get philanthropic funding. I don't really think any NCAP is ever going to do away with the 40% ODB test (or equivalent MPDB), but it would be really nice if Bharat NCAP could work on developing new supplementary region-specific test configurations. But I don't think it's likely because they seem to be interested in aligning with Euro NCAP.

Originally Posted by Rohan265

What I felt from the minister's comments was that the inclusion of all these safety measures was reactionary and for appeasement. The minister commented that "six-airbags" would have saved the lives of those young doctors. I agree that there was no technical backing to his comments.

Yes I believe that is what I meant to say. That "gut feeling" that six airbags would have saved those lives is exactly what is dangerous about vehicle safety.

[MSC]

While I fully support that all cars must be adherent to some basic sort of safety. It would be much better to get all cars, right from base to top model having six airbags and the other load of safety gadgets. Only thing I wonder is that what will most manufacturers do to differentiate the top most model from others as these equipments are usually reserved for the top most ( read costliest) model.

[Maky]

Very good.
Now to see how stringent it will be. There were many mentions of Global NCAP and others being incomparable to Euro NCAP because of the latters much stricter norms. I hope it will be more in line with Europes Assessment Programme and thus be modern and current in testing procedures and loads.

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by Hispaniola

Also 6 airbags means another 20-30% jump in price of Alto and likes.

No, it will be much cheaper than that. The cost to the manufacturer is low - they just charge more for top end models because a) they can and b) they throw in a bunch of other unrelated equipment

[reinhardt93]

I do agree, we need some more standardisation of basic safety equipment here in India. However, I do believe it will all be in vain as even the best of safety systems won't help you if someone is driving in the wrong lane right towards you at high speed.

I would say they should put more effort into making the driving license tests stricter and stop the brokerage stuff that goes on in the RTO's. Also, make sure that most people follow the rules and impose strict fines if they don't.

[Cresterk]

From what I have seen in the US, many cars who end up scoring 5 stars cannot even be compared among themselves because some of them like the teslas and volvos exceed the 5 star requirement by a lot. Hopefully, we come up with a system of 10 stars or atleast tweak the 5 star requirements so we can represent the range more favourably rather than all cars without a child seat attachment or active collision avoidance getting 0 stars. Remember, if the range is too narrow then it will just become another 'J.D power award' used as a talking point to upsell average cars.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by CArspeed

They should also ban cars scoring less than atleast three stars.

That would make having a star rating pointless. Better then to just make the old three-star limits the new zero-star limits and then start scoring up from there. That's how NCAPs work anyway, they're always tougher than local government regulation.

In government regulation crash tests (eg. frontal offset deformable barrier at 56km/h), the dummy has to keep injuries low enough to show a high probability of survival.

To score well in an NCAP frontal crash test, the injuries have to be far less than even those required to survive (even at the higher 64km/h speed), i.e., the dummy readings should represent a high probability of full integrity of the body part after the crash. In addition, NCAPs have a lot more provisions to apply penalties if the solution is not robust enough to provide protection had the crash been slightly different, eg. if the occupant was larger or seated differently, or the impact was slightly more violent.

Regulatory government crash tests are a matter of life or death*.

In NCAP tests (at least GNCAP) zero stars (even one star to an extent) vs anything above that is a matter of life or death* (but at a slightly higher speed).

Two stars vs five stars is a matter of simply surviving a crash* vs being able to walk away from it*. That choice is best left to the consumer, i.e. you will never see a mandate for a minimum star rating.

*only refers specifically to car-to-car frontal crashes at typical urban speeds, with an offset wide enough that the frontal longitudinal beams are engaged (if they are not, that could result in excessive collapse of the passenger compartment regardless of performance in the 40% overlap NCAP test).

[Sarath_]

There should be a Fast tag like system for horns. Every unnecessary horn will invite a small charge.

Or 100 honks free per year and charge for more—some chip inside the car to make it work or a better idea.

The above words might sound like a joke, but many drivers, especially cab drivers in Bangalore, think their horns are connected to the car's accelerator in front of them.

[CarNerd]

New month, New stuff Local NCAP? Very nice to hear! Just like he wanted to have a 120 kmph Speed limit. Instead of taking steps to prevent accidents like making trucks, buses stick to the left side mandatory, implementing strict driving licence tests, taking action against violators, etc, He wants an unnecessary NCAP which is of no immediate use when different NCAPs exist all over the world. We first need people to know traffic rules and follow them with fear of law. Without that, no amount of safety tests will make our roads safe.

[sandeepmdas]

Much needed, long-awaited ( at least by me ) reform. Though unrelated, this should have been implemented along with the appliances' energy-efficiency star rating system and Bharat Stage emission ratings. All three directly affect the nation's exchequer, future and wellbeing.

Just like the BS6, the Bharat NCAP can be on par with EuroNCAP which is far more severe and stringent than Global or ASEAN NCAPs. A lot of models will disappear, just like the Kodiaq Diesel, the Innova 2.8 D etc. which were discontinued due to the BS6 emission norms.