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-   -   ASEAN NCAP Q3 2014 Crash Test Results (Honda City & Tata Vista) (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-safety/154875-asean-ncap-q3-2014-crash-test-results-honda-city-tata-vista-3.html)

As already mentioned in previous posts, this test only represents head-on collision and we still do not know how safe the car would be in case of side impact. Or how safe the thin sheet metal would be in case the car topples over. I remember seeing photos of a dumper toppling over a Linea and still the occupants escaped unhurt, can the same level of safety be expected from Honda City? (I dont know..)
I feel classifying City's safety rating as being very good, solely on the basis of head-on crash test, does not present the whole (and true) picture.

Totally agree to the fact that these results, or in fact any such results will never guarantee a fool proof scenario. But, these kind of tests are performed to ensure the 'basic minimum' in terms of safety and security and might not cover lesser probable scenarios like a concrete mixer tumbling on top of the car. That would require an over dedicated guardian angel, more than sheet metal or airbags.

With a risk of sounding insensitive;
If this factor has to be considered by car companies as part of their life saving effort, they should be trying to invent something which would save others from being getting killed by such drivers, rather than the safety of the driver as such.

Dear Anurag,

The thickness of sheet metal does not forms a base for rating the safety. It is the monocoque or the structure of the car's basic frame that helps the most. And that has to be rigid and designed smartly so that vibrations during the crash are diverted to correct areas and make the passenger cabin safe. Hence, if the structure is strong, I would not worry anytime while sitting in a City. After all, the test report shows that it is as strong and safe as any other in business.

Regards,
Saket

Not taking anything away for trying to crash the Honda lovers out here, but for all of us to be really assured that we are comparing apples to apples, it would make sense that a India manufactured car results are put up against another India manufactured car.
As has already been pointed out - and we have read in multiple forums (say the Thar threads) it has been pointed out that these vehicles get "spec'ed-up" to be compliant to those markets.
Not taking anything away from Honda - but to say Honda is the Gold standard and everything else bites the dust seems a little too patronizing.

Simple question -

You are hit by a football or a bicycle or even a parking lot mishap - well, the light weight sheet metal ensures there is a big dent, and the monocoque construction ensures it takes all the impact. Crumble zones destroy the chasis while trying to protect the occupants, while better strength sheet metal could have reduced the impact itself.

If i am to allowed to use an analogy - Giving ultra light weight sheet metal and then giving crumple zones to compensate for it its almost like the hospital ensuring that the doctor is in the house, so we are giving you ebola virus.

stupid:

An ideal case would have been strong sheet metal AND monocoque with crumble zones. From my experience, some cars from the same segment - Ford Fiesta and VW Vento fare much better in this regard. Yes, no one denies the city will save your life, but so will these cars. But will they city protect itself as well as these europeans? No way! This opinion of mine applies to other cars with ultra thin sheet metal as well.

Yes, agree that the thinner sheet metal will be more dented when compared to thicker gauges, but I would also like to know that would stronger sheet metals transfer more impact directly to the passenger cabin?

I know that the comparison is unfair and may not be relevant but our Fiat 1100D used to have a tank like build. The front area, esp. the metal near the headlamps running towards the A pillar was so thick and strong that once a friend of mine took a challenge that he can dent that area with his 'karate' hand. Leave alone a dent, he suffered a tender wrist for about a week or so. But I am sure this will not help the passengers during a crash.

Edit: Would also like to invite your views that despite the City being made of thinner gauge sheets, how was it able to outscore the more solid Fiesta and the VW Vento on adult protection parameters? In fact the City 2014 beats the Fiesta & Vento in all parameters; except Vento beats it for Child occupant safety; though by a small margin. If the design philosophy of German vs. Japanese is to be taken into picture, even the ASEAN City 2014 should be made of thinner metal sheet compared to a Ford or VW, which are known to make heavy & solid cars.

I would take these results with a big pinch of salt when applying them to cars sold in the Indian market.

If you remember the recent Global NCAP tests conducted on Indian vehicles, the Hyundai i10 failed the test miserably, infact they labelled its body shell as unstable. The i10 in the Euro NCAP testing got a 4 star. And we are not talking about missing airbags or ESP or features like that. It is the basic shell itself that different.

The i10 is manufactured in India and exported overseas. So both the cars, meant for the Indian market and overseas market are manufactured in the same plant, but with totally different standards. Please refer to the following link

http://www.topgear.com/india/car-gal...urrentid=10866

Two questions:

1. Is there a difference in the test results for the same car with petrol and diesel engines?

2. Also, placement of engine - say traverse engine powering rear wheels will further strengthen the body as there is a continuous and strong link between the front (engine) and the real wheel (complete wheel base) whereas for front wheel drive, the engine and transmission ends before the passenger cabin.

Cheers

In my opinion, engine variants may not result in variances of such test reports.

I think that such designs would pose more challenges for safety. According to your idea, it will be more unsafe as the vibrations will be transferred to the rear area as well. I think the propeller shaft and differential couplings would break for good if the impact is strong enough to be carried so far.

Ultra light weight sheet metal is the norm now for all Cars world wide. It is the tensile strength and dent resistance capability of the steel sheets that define the Crash and Dent performance respectively. Even the so called European Tanks (Vento, etc.) are made of ultralight thin gauge material but possibly of higher tensile strength sheets. IMHO, results of all NCAP tests should be taken with more than a pinch of salt (may be a handfull!) as they have their own agendas as well and are not as altruistic in their objectives as made visible.

Comparing Honda City and Vento for example, if the Vento is very solidly built and you can see those areas on the periphery of the car, it means the meat of the car (the chassis etc) should weigh the same for both the cars. Or maybe the Chassis is sturdier in City since the weight difference is not much?

In international markets- a 2014 car is expected to beat the other two which are almost at the end of their life cycle. Unfortunately, we don't have similar generations to compare here in India.

The perfect comparison here would have been Thai City v/s Indian City.

And that brings me to my initial point, although the ASEAN City is light, it is still significantly heavier than the Indian version- pointed out in an earlier post. So unless someone can prove otherwise, it is not believable that Indian City is built the same way as the Thai ones and hence- is safe.

It is very difficult for a person to survive a crash at 120 km per hour regardless of how safe the car is. Even if the cabin survives the impact, the resulting forces would rupture the organs of the occupants. Most of the time, people are able to brake and slow down to a slower speed before crashing. E.g. one is doing 120 kmph, sees an obstacle and slams on the brakes. Even though the person can't avoid hitting the obstacle, the few seconds of braking slows the car down to say 60 kmph at impact. This video shows a test with an actual crash occurring at around 105 kmph (70 mph) and explains the results. Listen specifically around 5:10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju6t-yyoU8s

I have been following this thread and some other crash Tests thread.

So Honda City 2014 scored 15.8/16 and there are doubts that Honda City (Indian Market one) has thin sheet metal and not at all safe as the crash test shows.

On Similar Lines, Volkswagen Vento scored 14.51/16 in the ASEAN NCAP.

Weight of Honda City Tested - 1102 Kgs.
Weight of Indian Spec Honda City - 1049 kgs. (Similar Variant)

Weight of Volkswagen Vento Tested - 1180 Kgs.
Weight of Indian Spec Volkswagen Vento - 1140 Kgs.

So there is reduction in the weight reduction in both the Honda City as well as Vento when it comes to the Equivalent Indian Spec.

Furthermore, Honda City tested was with 2 Airbags whereas Volkswagen Vento tested was with 4 Airbags.

I don't want to say that Indian Spec Honda City is safe and well built. (I will let that be decided by our own Crash Tests) But even Vento's weight difference hints at probably reduction in the Steel thickness.

So all in all, these tests while they are there, give an indicative picture but a conclusion cannot be drawn based on these tests whether a car is safe or unsafe. (A car unsafe as per ASEAN NCAP would certainly be unsafe for India, but the vice-versa or otherwise may not be true).

Thickness of metal sheet used for outer shell doesn't really play a role in crash safety. Difference in weight is most likely due to the difference in weight on tyres & other equipment which is offered as standard in ASEAN model & removed from Indian version.