[ashwin489]

When something critical is being said about a brand or a specific car, I believe we shouldn't take it so personally. We always tend to idolize the things that we like. So, any critical opinion is perceived as bashing.

If someone criticizes a brand/car, it is not a full-on character assault on all the people who own the said brand/car.

Some even say that negative opinions should be curbed/moderated, but what else do we talk about then? Its not like we have local rally circuits or active performance modding communities. A car is still a luxury or an instrument of commute for most of us. By and large, our priorities and discussions are centered around economics, new launches and other practical aspects of the car. So, aspects such as safety and reliability would naturally get top priority.

One needs to realize that consumer criticism is good in a capitalistic setup, as it forces corporations to better themselves (which they will NEVER do on their own). Our safety rants on t-bhp will eventually spread to the public consciousness, which will also hopefully force lawmakers to enforce minimum safety standards (of course in a few decades time).

[subratasenn]

Originally Posted by anshuman_v

I am tempted to quote an adage here: In our family, in the earlier generation, we had a good old Premier Padmini. It had been with us for some 20 years. When the time came to sell it off, I was wondering who would buy it, and if I should give it off as scrap. My mother then made a very telling comment: 'In India, there is a market for everything, at all price points'. There is always a person who aspires for a car, and can maybe only afford 30k. And indeed, I sold our then family car for around that price, without any hassles at all.

Ah, may be it was me who bought your car.
In 1992 I bought a 20-year old Premier Padmini at around that price and sold it off after three years for 28K.
By the way, I always felt safe driving a Padmini because of the long bonnet and heavy sheet metal. That safe feeling was all gone a few years later with my new Maruti 800.

[madroxx]

I think that a lot of people have misunderstood the purpose of this thread. The motive of this thread which I think is to make people to stay away from unsafe cars. But on the contrary this has changed into a brawl between the brands. We as a well informed customer know the value of safety and should advise or motivate prospective buyers to value safety more than the price. So it would be really helpful if we start talking about cars and variants which have been certified safe in each segment rather than blaming manufacturers. The main reason manufacturers have these safety features in the top variants is because the majority of sales happens on the low variants without safety features. If all customers opt for the variant which has all safety features then manufacturers will be forced to provide these features as standard.

[heavenlybull]

Swift is considered a premium hatchback and is priced like a premium hatchback. So its expected to at least have a stable body structure if not have ABS/airbags in lower variants. Even buyers who bought zxi variants were in for a rude shock when test results came. Swift's criticism in this thread is justified.

A two wheeler guy on a tight budget and graduating to a car would probably look at an Alto or Wagon R etc which of course offer him better safety. At that price range I think it wrong to attack only Maruti, I'm pretty sure all cars in A, B1 segment offer poor cabin structure today.

[saket77]

We also need to understand that car buying is still a luxury in India. For many of us, car buying is an event of lifetime, more so like an aspiration rather than just buying decision. Hence, it is quite natural to go for entry model cars/ cheaper variants as they are easier on the pocket of average Indian families. This is how an average Indian family rolls on a budget. Frankly evaluate ourselves, which was the first car our family brought home; even if we are currently driving bigger & safer cars. For one may have crossed that phase but for many, they are still to get there. Hence, blaming the owners of such cars and thinking that they do not value their lives or the lives of their loved ones is not justified. Safety is relative. We feel more than safe here with 2 airbags, but someone used to US/ UK standards may feel unsafe in a car with just 2 airbags. They are used to 6 airbags in the car. Will that mean that people driving cars with just 2 airbags do not value their loved ones lives? In the same way, the someone who has just upgraded to an A segment car from his 2 wheeler has climbed a safety ladder. Agree that they should not take it as an elixir of life, but a situation like this has to be appreciated.

However, the problem will be solved to an extent by making the safety features standard on all cars. This will result in localization of manufacturing of concerned parts and economy of scales will further see a price drop. We should not construe that prices will go north based on the prices of current models offering those safety kit. It has to be & will be substantially lower.

Maruti, as a market leader and credited to change the automotive scene in India should step ahead and change things for better in its cars. Sooner or later, they have to do it, so doing it now will bring them goodwill as well. Others also do not have the choice. I am not a VW fan in anyway, but respect them for what they did to Polo when it failed the NCAP test. I would like to see more and more manufacturers doing the same and contribute to building safer road travel experience in India.

Thanks,
Saket

[anb]

Originally Posted by heavenlybull

A two wheeler guy on a tight budget and graduating to a car would probably look at an Alto or Wagon R etc which of course offer him better safety. At that price range I think it wrong to attack only Maruti, I'm pretty sure all cars in A, B1 segment offer poor cabin structure today.

Polo and Figo without airbags were already tested. Both cars have stable cabin structure. I am sure that the punto will also have a stable cabin structure.

[heavenlybull]

@anb Of course Polo and Figo have stable cabin structures. Just to clarify I only said I suspect A and B1 segment hatches (Eon, Santro, Wagon R etc) Figo is classified as B2 if I am not wrong and Polo of course is a premium hatch.

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by anb

Polo and Figo without airbags were already tested. Both cars have stable cabin structure. I am sure that the punto will also have a stable cabin structure.

Figo scored zero stars also. Polo also fared badly, stable cabin not withstanding.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by srishiva

Figo scored zero stars also. Polo also fared badly, stable cabin not withstanding.

Just to clarify that point, a car is given zero stars if it does not have dual airbags, stable cabin or not (Airbags are mandatory to get qualified for a star rating). So obviously, the Figo and Polo without airbags will score zero stars! The same Polo with dual airbags was awarded 4 stars. But the Figo with airbags was not tested and so, we don't know what star rating it would have got. But one thing we know for sure is that the Figo with airbags would fare better than the Swift with airbags as the cabin was stable under impact, unlike the Swift, which gives Figo the edge.

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

Just to clarify that point, a car is given zero stars if it does not have dual airbags, stable cabin or not (Airbags are mandatory to get qualified for a star rating). So obviously, the Figo and Polo without airbags will score zero stars! The same Polo with dual airbags was awarded 4 stars. But the Figo with airbags was not tested and so, we don't know what star rating it would have got. But one thing we know for sure is that the Figo with airbags would fare better than the Swift with airbags as the cabin was stable under impact, unlike the Swift, which gives Figo the edge.

Car is not given zero stars just because it lacks airbags. Its the effectiveness of air bags that reduces injury to the occupants providing restraint that counts in the stars. Not a direct correlation of no airbags so no stars.

[PVPal]

Firstly, apologies for the long post. Bear with me please.

Originally Posted by prakhar1998

I Another thing is that this certainly doesn't suggest that the Alto,Nano or in fact the i10 performed any better.

Why GNCAP has only asked Datsun, and not any other manufacturers is highly unclear.

GNCAP may have started with a brand with the lowest market impact. It allows them to do two things: (1) make a strong message to the Indian auto industry, (2) and at the same time, not have a major financial impact on the market as a whole. In any case, they had to start somewhere, if at all. One may argue that they could have done it with the Nano, but I guess they realize that the Nano is the cheapest car in the world, and does not come from European, Japanese, or American brand, though the Tata’s are no less global, with more than 70% of the groups US $ 100 Bn coming from outside India.

Also, I think the first batch of tests on the Polo and Figo generated a lot of reaction from the Indian press, and Indians in general. This may have played a role in encouraging GNCAP to take this bold step.

Originally Posted by Astleviz

You are drawing the wrong inference from these tests. The Swift didn't fail the tests because it uses lighter sheet metal but because it is poorly designed and engineered.

Just to add to your post: Agreed its design and engineering. But the word “poorly” may unintentionally imply that its lack of capability. While in this case it’s a glaring lack of intent, for whatever reason, justifiable or unjustifiable. It is not like any of these manufacturers do not know how to make a care safe. It’s more like a deliberate, planned and conscious decision to include or omit key aspects of a car that make it safer than what is sold today: missing welds points which are expensive, using lower grade steel , etc.

Originally Posted by Hayek

That's also the issue I have with Maruti. By taking structural members OUT from the Swift, they are letting their customers down. In some senses it is worse than what Nissan has done. People who buy a Swift or Corolla or Accord in India reasonably expect it to be the same product as the one sold globally - with missing features appearing (or not appearing) on the brochure. Making a product that has been deliberately engineered to be less safe in a manner that a customer can't detect, and selling it under a global brand name is betraying the customer. Certainly a fit case for someone to file a complaint with the CCI in my view.

Allow me to add to your post: The Swift can touch 8+ lakhs on road in many cities. By no means is it a cheap car. By no means is the ZXI variant equipped with ABS and Airbags expected to fail. By no means is the Lxi variant expected to have an unstable structure, that too if other manufacturers are able to provide a safer car at the same or lower price point.

The point I want to make is: Lets make no mistake, this is a vicious circle. Any company which is making huge profits because of such cost saving measures, and because of the sheer numbers it sells, has an unfair advantage in terms of its cash flows, its profits, and most importantly in its ability to invest in newer and more diverse products, which in turn make room for it to generate more market share and more numbers and more profit, as well as more returns for its share holders. Ultimately that’s the end game.

Will it be unfair to question if Maruti would have the same sales figures if its cars were 30-50,000 more expensive because they had to make them as safe as their European products. I guess the other manufacturers who make relatively safer body shells and equally decent products (Polo, Punto, Figo) would have a better chance to sell in such a scenario, improving their business prospects, and their future in the Indian market.

Wouldn’t it be fair that these other manufacturers get returns considering that they were every so slightly more considerate of the Mango Man and his safety, though the real reason may well be that they may be playing to their strengths and distinguishing factors.

Just want to add a disclaimer here: I own a Maruti for the past several years, and am not trying to bash anyone. I am trying to analyze the far reaching business and social implications the combination of cost cuttings on safety, and still selling huge numbers may have.

Originally Posted by aseem

Cost of life in West is more then cost of life here unfortunately however sad it's the truth. None of our factories regulations follow the same safety standards as US.

However that's just singling out one thing. Let's begin with roads, pollution, noise pollution, road worthiness of busses trailers, lane driving, speed limits, proper marked speed breakers. The thing is driving in India is not safe period!

Originally Posted by sadsack

So let us make a beginning by setting in place procedures for issue of licences, procedures for licence cancellations for habitual offenders, let us build better roads without potholes or let us not build NHs that go through villages bisecting them, let us enforce the compliance to safety features like working tail lamps, head lamps and flashers, let us ensure that our cars are in decent condition, let us not try to save 1ml of fuel by driving on the wrong side of the road instead of going to the U turn, let us drive in lanes and follow speed limits, let us not have buses that are jam packed and travelling at 2 kmph over inclines, forcing others to attempt overtakes, let us stop using cell phones while driving and parking in the middle of the road to complete a call.... I can go on.

May I just say that each of the above issue is definitely a reality somewhere or the other in India. However, each has a different set of solutions too, and each gets highlighted, discussed and debated in various forums. Each needs due and careful attention and some need more government intervention than others, but all need the attention and focused support of citizens to bring about change.

So I do not think that there is anything wrong that in this particular thread we are discussing one such important aspect of car safety. I am sure no one will mind starting other threads about some of the aspects you mentioned.

This particular thread is also about whether one gets his money’s worth, among other things I and others have already mentioned earlier. Nothing wrong if individuals feel a need to comment on that aspect of their purchases.

Originally Posted by saket77

We also need to understand that car buying is still a luxury in India. For many of us, car buying is an event of lifetime, more so like an aspiration rather than just buying decision. Hence, it is quite natural to go for entry model cars/ cheaper variants as they are easier on the pocket of average Indian families. This is how an average Indian family rolls on a budget.

While I take your point that budgets are important, there are three points that I would like to share:

1. consider a 25,000 increment due to ABS and Airbags, and a 20,000 increment in consolidating the structure of an Alto (these numbers which are conjectures, and the model chosen, are for the sake of argument only) which costs around 3.2 Lakhs ex-showroom Delhi. The difference in EMI for a 5 year 10.5% loan is less than 1100 bucks. Now in a culture where safety of the entire family is considered very important, this would not be a big barrier. However, in a culture where 10,000 bucks are sometimes spent on a music system this difference of 1100 bucks could be too much.
2. A safer car is also your insurance towards lower hospital bills. We all know how insurance works right. Paying 1000 bucks a month may avoid potentially expensive medical bills later, let alone the threat of permanent disability. Healthcare is no longer cheap in India, I would say, prevention is better than cure.
3. While I completely agree that each individual may have a different need, I have something else to highlight about our non-regard to safety as a culture. There are 9-10 lakh two wheelers sold in India monthly, a good number of which are the high end ones, costing close to a Lakh, if not more. A part of this population use them as leisure bikes over weekends, but a majority use it in daily commute. I am not saying that individuals, who buy such expensive bikes, should not buy them, but the humble Nano is relatively safer than them. Still the Nano gets less than a 1% of those 9 lakh bikes sold. There is a message there, if one cares to read.

Originally Posted by saket77

However, the problem will be solved to an extent by making the safety features standard on all cars. This will result in localization of manufacturing of concerned parts and economy of scales will further see a price drop. We should not construe that prices will go north based on the prices of current models offering those safety kit. It has to be & will be substantially lower.

Absolutely. I am not sure about the exact rates, but for every doubling in production volume, most products show a 12-22% decrease in cost. And in India, we need more like a 20 fold increase in volumes of safety equipment, not two fold. So a lot of scope in price reduction.

[INJAXN]

Swift scored zero star in crash test. Now what?

I have a swift vxi, I knew ABS and Airbags are important but still I bought a vxi version. Did not expected the car to be this poor. Now it really does not matter whose fault it is, only my loved ones and I are at risk and not Maruti.

So what should I do to minimize the risk?

1) Sell current vehicle and buy a safer vehicle ( a 5 start only)

I can really think of this option as of now, please advice.

[supremeBaleno]

^^^While stars do provide a way to gauge relative safety of cars, do bear in mind that no car guarantees that occupants will come out alive from any accident, even if rated 5 star.
So whether you retain the car or replace it with some other 'comparitively' safer option, take care to drive safe.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by INJAXN

Swift scored zero star in crash test. Now what?

I have a swift vxi, I knew ABS and Airbags are important but still I bought a vxi version. Did not expected the car to be this poor. Now it really does not matter whose fault it is, only my loved ones and I are at risk and not Maruti.

So what should I do to minimize the risk?

1) Sell current vehicle and buy a safer vehicle ( a 5 start only)

I can really think of this option as of now, please advice.

I'd say thats a knee-jerk reaction. Don't suddenly lose affection to your car. Till now you've lived happily with the same car. It hasn't changed overnight. Only your perception has changed. Just drive with care & you'll be fine.

When its time to change your car after some years - at that time buy one that has all the safety features. Don't blindly fix the "5 star criterion". The tests are indicative. A 5 star safe car may also perform poorly in a particular situation.

[coolboy007]

Originally Posted by INJAXN

1) Sell current vehicle and buy a safer vehicle ( a 5 start only)
I can really think of this option as of now, please advice.

If you can, please do. More than Swift being an unsafe car as the structure was deemed unstable during the crash test, even bigger factor is that your car neither has ABS nor Airbags. ABS is a life saver on many occasions and if that does not save, then its the airbags which save both you and your co-passenger from smashing their heads against the hard plastic.

I request every one to please get a car with abs and airbags, most of us team bhpians do go for a car which have abs and airbags and i request others to do the same. Yeah, budget is a constraint in some cases but you and your family's life is more important than a lakh or two saved in some bank or fixed deposit.
Accidents can happen to any one, its a matter of time, be prepared.

If you can, please go and get a good built 5 star rated car with abs and airbags. Drive safe