[adit mishra]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

The incident in question was not a frontal impact. It was a side impact. The front end of a car is the strongest due to crumple zones, the engine and other reinforcements. Side doors are the weakest area in any vehicle. There is just an inch or two of the door panel between the occupant and the impact. An SUV or a heavier car crashing in to a small one head on would cause more damage in the smaller vehicle if all other things are equal. However the same small car crashing in to the side of a larger one can inflict tremendous damage as the doors do not have any crumple zones. All you can do is put some crash bars and side and curtain airbags to protect the passengers.

If you consider a large SUV being hit on the side by an Alto car, do you think it will produce enough impact to put the lives of the occupants in danger? I doubt so because the alto's front end barely reaches the foot rest of a Scorpio.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by adit mishra

If you consider a large SUV being hit on the side by an Alto car, do you think it will produce enough impact to put the lives of the occupants in danger?

Certainly. It all depends on how hard it hits it.

Do you think your life could be put in danger by being hit with a cricket bat? It weighs a lot less tha n you do!

I doubt so because the alto's front end barely reaches the foot rest of a Scorpio.

Better fit bars to prevent under-run then!

Ah, the myth of the safety of our metal boxes on wheels. The bigger it is, the bigger the myth. It's a still a myth, though.

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by adit mishra

If you consider a large SUV being hit on the side by an Alto car, do you think it will produce enough impact to put the lives of the occupants in danger? I doubt so because the alto's front end barely reaches the foot rest of a Scorpio.

In a high speed impact it is possible that the occupants of an SUV might be injured due to a side impact with an Alto. However you are suggesting an extreme scenario. My point was regarding a smaller car like the Alto being worse off in a frontal collision with say a Honda City but the same Alto would do a lot more damage if it impacted the City on its doors.

[dr.fixated]

Originally Posted by royfernandez

I have a different take on this altogether to get these death cars once and all out of the way. Let the IRDA pay a key role by making Insurance Companies charge Car Insurance 500% more for anyone considering buying Swift or the Datsun GO. What would probably happen would be that the OTR prices for these 2 death cars would act as a deterrent to anyone buying them.

Even better would be if Car Insurance Companies DO NOT provide Insurance covers for all vehicles who fail the NCAP tests.

I agree with the basic premise. But "mandating" the insurers charge a certain rate will meet problems and perhaps not very effective. As someone remarked in this thread, education and awareness are required.

For example, the videos of the side overlap crash tests shared in this thread were conducted by Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) in USA. It is mentioned on their webpage (http://www.iihs.org/iihs/about-us) that both IIHS and Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) are not-for-profit organizations and are wholly funded by insurance companies. They study and also try to reduce the human and economic losses due to accidents.

We need such a body to perform the tests, insurers to charge appropriate premiums and people to be better informed.

[hserus]

I just posted this link in the technical discussion forum on tbhp. But as one of the cars referenced in the article is rather familiar on indian roads .. Ford bronco 2 rebadged as Ford Explorer .. worth posting here too. Fascinating reading, we may need such attention to detail in local lawsuits before manufacturers move to religiously follow ncap ratings and other safety measures.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...n-lawsuit.html

[joybhowmik]

Interesting news today. It seems the government is surprised also at the way the manufacturers are suddenly developing a case of cold feet.

Carmakers' reluctance to introduce minimum "safety features" in their vehicles, citing "price rise", has surprised government officials. This is because there was a consensus among automobile manufacturers that these norms would be implemented when a government-appointed panel had come out with the timeline to introduce these features.

"We had rounds of detailed discussion with the industry in the past one year. Though the list of minimum safety features had more items, we agreed to come out with the most necessary safety features after consultations with automobile manufacturers and their representatives. Even the timelines were worked out considering their views," said a senior government official.

Further, in a move, quite similar to the product disclaimers made mandatory on alcohol and tobacco packaging, vehicle and road safety experts may lobby for full disclosure about how unsafe a given model is - BEFORE the customer signs on the dotted line to buy the car. All POWER to them!

Rejecting the claim of automobile companies, former vice-president of Punjab Road Safety Council Kamaljeet Soi said, "The price increase that they have been quoting is ridiculous. Why can't they market how safe their cars are rather than offering cash discount?"

Road safety expert Rohit Baluja said vehicle manufacturers may continue the debate on price increase, but they must "inform people how unsafe their vehicles are". He added that consumers must be told how safe the car is so that they can have an informed choice.

[jessie007]

Originally Posted by adit mishra

Sorry I missed the major point. All I wanted to say was-
1. An expensive car may not be the safest. Perhaps the Scorpio, a vehicle with a kerb weight of 2520 kgs may have absorbed the impact forces and transmitted less shock waves to the person's body that might have saved him.

Scorpio doesn't have a Kerb weight of 2520 kgs - this might probably be the gross vehicle weight. The kerb weight is around 1800 kgs only.

[adit mishra]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Certainly. It all depends on how hard it hits it.

Do you think your life could be put in danger by being hit with a cricket bat? It weighs a lot less tha n you do!



Better fit bars to prevent under-run then!

Ah, the myth of the safety of our metal boxes on wheels. The bigger it is, the bigger the myth. It's a still a myth, though.

Point articulated by you in the best manner possible. I think it's time we stopped holding on to such baseless beliefs.

Originally Posted by jessie007

Scorpio doesn't have a Kerb weight of 2520 kgs - this might probably be the gross vehicle weight. The kerb weight is around 1800 kgs only.

I stand corrected-The kerb weight is around 1800 kgs.

[vb-saan]

On the topic of safety and crash tests, here's a Top Gear video from 2003. Fast-forward to 25:00 to see the demonstration of a Renault Megane hatchback crashed at speeds of around 30 mph (with a real driver, not a dummy). Shows how the airbags and seat belts work in tandem, and also how intact the passenger shell is. And at 29:30, you can see a comparison of how some cars fared in a standard NCAP crash test at a speed of 40mph. Its an old video, but helps to demonstrate that bigger and heavier vehicles need not be always safe compared to a small hatchback – a Ford Fiesta or a Toyota Avanza doing better than a Land Rover Freelander.

The video is more than 10 years old, but unfortunately most of the cars (C-segment and below) we have in India in 2014 may do worse than the three-star rated Proton shown in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btv9qKE40Ro

[abhishek46]

What is surprising here is the attitude of car manufacturers, how in the world can you say that safety standards are not needed and dont apply for india?
Giving lame excuses like this and saying that costs will increase and blah blah are just means to downplay customer concerns and keep selling their product.
It came in papers also recently that car makers are trying very hard to try to convince govt to cancel it's ABS and airbags inclusion mandate. Shame on these car makers!

[mithun]

Curious about Ritz, in the Euro market its having 4 star rating.

What about the Indian one ?

[zenren]

Originally Posted by mithun

Curious about Ritz, in the Euro market its having 4 star rating.

What about the Indian one ?

We can expect similar difference as in the case of Swift since Ritz is cheaper than Swift here, with the same engines.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by abhishek46

It came in papers also recently that car makers are trying very hard to try to convince govt to cancel it's ABS and airbags inclusion mandate.

I'd want a sturdier + stronger car inclusive of the ABS and airbags (read 'built like a tank').

Having a tin can with the ABS and Airbags would do 50% good to its occupants but have a safer shell would do is 100%.

Is high time the government does something on the safety aspect.

Anurag.

[balajisv]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

I'd want a sturdier + stronger car inclusive of the ABS and airbags (read 'built like a tank').

Having a tin can with the ABS and Airbags would do 50% good to its occupants but have a safer shell would do is 100%.

Is high time the government does something on the safety aspect.

Anurag.

+1 that.

It's this very thought that convinced me to go for Zest XT, the top variant.
Comes with dual airbags, ABS and corner stability control.
The built is quite robust and sturdy in comparison to tinny Maruti/Honda.
With my budget of 7L, this is the best product out in the market today.

[sadsack]

This post of mine is not about how compromised the safety of cars sold in India is or about the necessity of various passive safety elements. That has been discussed at length on this thread.

What I want to know is the intent behind the witch hunt that Max Mosley has launched against Nissan and Carlos Ghosn. We all know that Max Mosley who was the ex President of the FIA is a highly political and therefore controversial figure. His role in the Ferrari/McLaren spy gate is well documented and he did not hesitate to try and bankrupt McLaren by imposing a 100 million British Pounds fine on the company. McLaren boss Ron Dennis had to make way for Martin Whitmarsh to escape further victimisation by Max Mosley.

Rumour has it that it was Ron Dennis who was at the forefront of a sting operation on Max Mosley's involvement with prostitutes and his playing a Nazi in a sex orgy that was broken to the world by the News of the World tabloid. Somewhere in all that print were the names of Flavio Briatore and Carlos Ghosn mentioned because of the Alonso gate scandal that happened along with the spy gate scandal. Carlos Ghosn was the head of Renault-Nissan and it is believed that there was a problem between Mosley and Ghosn.

After the Datsun Go failed the NCAP tests, Max Mosley exceeded his brief by writing a letter to Carlos Ghosn about the abject lack of safety in the car's construction and even suggested its withdrawal from the Indian market. This was the second time that Mosley was writing about safety to Ghosn and both the times Ghosn ignored his letters. Nissan came up with a statement that the NCAP was not a statutory body and that it did not have the power to recommend the withdrawal of cars from markets. Not only did Mosley write the letter he leaked its contents to the media and made this a public affair. People have the right to know, so fair enough.

After being ignored by Ghosn, Max Mosley now says he plans to write to the Prime Minister of Japan about the unsafe construction of the Datsun Go (you can read his interview on this issue on the Autocarpro.in website). This is where things turn most interesting. Nissan maybe a Japanese company but it is not selling the car in Japan. It is an India specific car (at least so far). So if he was really serious about the safety of Indians he should have been writing to statutory Indian authorities and advising them to get the car off the road (though he enjoys no such powers). If you read the many posts on this thread, a number of readers have been scathing in their criticism of Maruti because the Swift also failed the NCAP. Whenever, the spokesmen of either Maruti or Nissan have said that their cars were built to the standards set by governments in India, Indonesia and Thailand, the members of the Team-BHP have expressed outrage.

Now consider this. All most all Indian cars (with the exception of the Polo/Vento and Figo) have done terribly in the NCAP tests and all of them came back with the same spectacular results. Mosley was quite about all the cars that failed. He was quite about the Swift that failed along with the Go. But he chose to attack the Datsun Go. The fact that he has kept silent about all the other cars that failed the test gives credence to the claims of the respective car makers that their cars meet the standards of construction set by the government of India (apart from Indonesia and Thailand). Otherwise why is Mosley not addressing these bodies and why is he not writing to the Prime Ministers/Presidents of these countries? Why to the Prime Minister of Japan? What jurisdiction does he have over cars manufactured in India?

Meanwhile sales in November have got into three figures as far as the Datsun Go is considered. So it is obvious that Max Mosley has a hidden agenda (which maybe known to Ghosn). Here is a question for all of us? When things are so political with the "honest" and "non-governmental" agencies, can we really trust them? If people like Mosley instead of concentrating on safety issues and providing suggestions which are constructive focus on personal issues then they are only confusing the consumer who has nothing to do with these politics. I am sure everyone agrees with that argument.

As far as consumers are concerned we now have to be doubly careful and vigilant. Not only should we now believe that all that glitters is not gold; we should also believe that all that is spoken by the likes of Mosley is not necessarily true of wise. That was the point behind my long post. Thanks for bearing with me.