[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by sadsack

Here is a question for all of us? When things are so political with the "honest" and "non-governmental" agencies, can we really trust them? If people like Mosley instead of concentrating on safety issues and providing suggestions which are constructive focus on personal issues then they are only confusing the consumer who has nothing to do with these politics.

Fact is that Datsun Go failed the tests and came out as the car with the least structural integrity among those tested. It is the structual integrity (or lack thereof) of Datsun Go that Max Mosley has highlighted. Now, unless someone can show that these results were rigged in some fashion to suit Mosley's agenda, the conspiracy theories and allegations of personal vendetta do not matter at all in my opinion. Even if, for argument's sake, we accept that Max Mosley has an agenda against Renault/Nissan, it is a sub-standard product from Renault/Nissan which has allowed Max Mosley to carry out his agenda.

As Indian customers, we should be asking how Renault/Nissan launched this "India-specific" car? Did they never crash-test it? Or did they crash-test it and determine that the car is safe enough for Indians?

I am not convinced that the test results are in any way behind the Datsun Go's lack of sales. It never set the sales chart on fire anyway. But, if at least one person has chosen to ignore the car due to the test results, I'll view that as a positive development for the market.

[Chetan_Rao]

Politics and ulterior motives exist everywhere, sometimes even in the noblest of initiatives. It's upto us as the end customer(s) to make an informed decision based on the merit of the argument itself, rather than the person putting forth said argument.

Max Mosley may have a questionable reputation in certain circles, but that doesn't take away from the fact that some cars sold in India and other emerging markets have no business being on the roads, and their manufacturers need to be shown up for what they really are, profit-mongering crooks cutting corners at every opportunity, then being asked to either fix their products to acceptable standards (not pre-historic 'Indian' standards) or close up shop.

Whatever happened to not judging a book by its cover?

[sadsack]

Originally Posted by sadsack

Not only did Mosley write the letter he leaked its contents to the media and made this a public affair. People have the right to know, so fair enough.

After being ignored by Ghosn, Max Mosley now says he plans to write to the Prime Minister of Japan about the unsafe construction of the Datsun Go (you can read his interview on this issue on the Autocarpro.in website). This is where things turn most interesting. Nissan maybe a Japanese company but it is not selling the car in Japan. It is an India specific car (at least so far). So if he was really serious about the safety of Indians he should have been writing to statutory Indian authorities and advising them to get the car off the road (though he enjoys no such powers).

Now consider this. All most all Indian cars (with the exception of the Polo/Vento and Figo) have done terribly in the NCAP tests and all of them came back with the same spectacular results. Mosley was quite about all the cars that failed. He was quite about the Swift that failed along with the Go. But he chose to attack the Datsun Go. The fact that he has kept silent about all the other cars that failed the test gives credence to the claims of the respective car makers that their cars meet the standards of construction set by the government of India (apart from Indonesia and Thailand). Otherwise why is Mosley not addressing these bodies and why is he not writing to the Prime Ministers/Presidents of these countries? Why to the Prime Minister of Japan? What jurisdiction does he have over cars manufactured in India?

Here is a question for all of us? When things are so political with the "honest" and "non-governmental" agencies, can we really trust them? If people like Mosley instead of concentrating on safety issues and providing suggestions which are constructive focus on personal issues then they are only confusing the consumer who has nothing to do with these politics. I am sure everyone agrees with that argument.

As far as consumers are concerned we now have to be doubly careful and vigilant. Not only should we now believe that all that glitters is not gold; we should also believe that all that is spoken by the likes of Mosley is not necessarily true of wise. That was the point behind my long post. Thanks for bearing with me.

Originally Posted by StarrySky

. Now, unless someone can show that these results were rigged in some fashion to suit Mosley's agenda, the conspiracy theories and allegations of personal vendetta do not matter at all in my opinion. Even if, for argument's sake, we accept that Max Mosley has an agenda against Renault/Nissan, it is a sub-standard product from Renault/Nissan which has allowed Max Mosley to carry out his agenda.

As Indian customers, we should be asking how Renault/Nissan launched this "India-specific" car? Did they never crash-test it? Or did they crash-test it and determine that the car is safe enough for Indians?

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Politics and ulterior motives exist everywhere, sometimes even in the noblest of initiatives. It's upto us as the end customer(s) to make an informed decision based on the merit of the argument itself, rather than the person putting forth said argument.

Max Mosley may have a questionable reputation in certain circles, but that doesn't take away from the fact that some cars sold in India and other emerging markets have no business being on the roads, and their manufacturers need to be shown up for what they really are, profit-mongering crooks cutting corners at every opportunity, then being asked to either fix their products to acceptable standards (not pre-historic 'Indian' standards) or close up shop.

Whatever happened to not judging a book by its cover?

I hesitated a lot before making this post, because I feared exactly this would happen. People will leave out the grain and concentrate on the chaff. Please read what I have put as my own post on the top and the ones that I have quoted from Starry Sky and Chetan Rao.

Did I say anywhere that the tests were rigged? Did I disagree with the results? All I asked is why is only Datsun being singled out for letter writing by Max Mosley? Why not the head honchos of all the other Indian car manufacturers whose cars fared no better. And why write to the Japanese Premier? Are we a colony of Japan?

Why has Mosley not questioned that minimum standards of crash testing in the developing world? Again why has he not written to the respective governments?

Politics pervades everywhere so we just accept them? I want to know what is coming out of Max Mosley's letters to Carlos Ghosn and the premier of Japan? Is that stopping the sale of any of the products that failed the test including the Datsun Go. We are all like activists. We shout ourselves hoarse go home and forget the story. And get back to our daily activities till some one stirs the hornet's nest. That is why nothing changes in this country. Since we confuse the chaff for the grain. And Mr. Chetan Rao, which book are you talking about when you say it has been judged by its cover? Wrong metaphor Sir, find a better one next time. And please read the last sentence of my post which I have quoted above and you will see what I mean. I would say whatever happened to reading posts before replying to them?

I have begun to think that it may be better to quit automobile forums. They increasingly remind me of the sheep in the Animal Farm of George Orwell's. And dear Mr. Rao, I have read the book and seen the cover before I came to the judgement.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by sadsack

Now consider this. All most all Indian cars (with the exception of the Polo/Vento and Figo) have done terribly in the NCAP tests and all of them came back with the same spectacular results. Mosley was quite about all the cars that failed. He was quite about the Swift that failed along with the Go. But he chose to attack the Datsun Go. The fact that he has kept silent about all the other cars that failed the test gives credence to the claims of the respective car makers that their cars meet the standards of construction set by the government of India (apart from Indonesia and Thailand). Otherwise why is Mosley not addressing these bodies and why is he not writing to the Prime Ministers/Presidents of these countries? Why to the Prime Minister of Japan? What jurisdiction does he have over cars manufactured in India?

That's because the Datsun Go crumbled like a piece of papad. Compared to that, the Swift and Alto held up better. Datsun Go deserves to be pulled off the streets.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by sadsack

I hesitated a lot before making this post, because I feared exactly this would happen.

Putting the current debate aside for a moment, I'd just like to say you're taking offense where none was intended. The whole point of a forum is to bring together diverse opinion, and there will always be disagreements, esp. on a touchy topic like safety which has long been a forgotten step-child of the Indian automotive industry. None of that means we should go about taking personal potshots at each other. I have no control over what you say (nor do I intend to), but I don't appreciate the tone of your previous post. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion doesn't mean they're trying to shut you out of a debate or taking away your right to have an opinion. Yours is as valid as mine or anyone else's.

I don't believe I have language comprehension or attention deficit issues, and I did read your whole post (and the entire thread over a course of time) before commenting.

My point about not judging a book by the cover comes from your argument about Max Mosley being a controversial figure during his days in FIA and questioning his motives based on that, instead of focusing on the argument he puts forth. I'm not asking you to side with Max, I'm only asking you to consider the argument on its own merit, independent of the person making the said argument. You still have a right to disagree post-consideration, if so inclined.

As for him targeting a particular brand, I believe even one unsafe model off the road is a small victory. Would I rather have him go on a crusade against all manufacturers dishing out sub-standard products? Absolutely. But would I take a 'all or nobody' stand on it? Nope. Like I said, every small step counts.

Renault is a global manufacturer and provides competent and safe products all around the world, then why should Indians like you and me accept a below-par product like the Go that can't even keep its structural integrity in a moderate speed crash? I don't buy the entire (note I don't say yours) 'exceeding the brief' argument, because that angle is usually used by everyone to get out of explaining themselves. Isn't the debate more important than who started it and whether their 'brief' gives them the right to do so?

None of the players involved are above reproach. Max Mosley has a Nazi lineage and a controversial stint in FIA, while any manufacturer you can name is after profits first and foremost, wherever and however they can get it. That being said, as long as the long-overdue debate about safety stays in its rightful place front and center, I don't really care for the antecedents or morality or brief of the people perpetuating the debate. When everyone is pushing their own interests (profits, politics or whatever), why shouldn't the consumer care for his own (quality and safety)?

To close an unusually long post, I'd just say we're all part of a forum that prides itself on impartial conduct and standing up for the consumer. Anything you and I bring to the debate only adds to it, so I'd never want any of us to be shut out of it. Whether you choose to stay, participate and occasionally disagree, or quit because you think it's not worth your effort, the choice is yours. Cheers!


P.S. I appreciate your book-reading habits. I've read Orwell too and find him brilliant, even if a bit disconcerting at times.

[djpeesh]

Originally Posted by sadsack

As far as consumers are concerned we now have to be doubly careful and vigilant. Not only should we now believe that all that glitters is not gold; we should also believe that all that is spoken by the likes of Mosley is not necessarily true of wise. That was the point behind my long post. Thanks for bearing with me.

Sadsack: valid point however, if I remember correctly, Mosley said that the reason he wrote to Ghosn was that while the other cars in the test would have passed with the installation of airbags, the Go was so structurally poor that even airbags wouldn't have saved them.

And with all due respect, saying that safety standards in India are the ones that should be acceptable is like saying hypothetically that if India didn't make a statutory warning mandatory on cigarette packets and the US did, smoking cigarettes in India were alright and wouldn't cause you harm.

Do take a moment to look at the Accidents in India Thread and then decide whether we need or don't need safer cars

Nissan maintains that there's nothing wrong with the Datsun Go and it meets existing Indian regulations. A company spokesperson had earlier said, "We want to reassure you that the Datsun Go meets the required local vehicle regulations in India as well as in Indonesia and South Africa. The Datsun Go was developed with a strong intention to deliver the best adapted solutions to the local conditions.” The company says that the GNCAP results and its criticism will not make any change its plans for the Datsun Go. In an interview last month, Guillaume Sicard, chief of Nissan's India operations, said, "We know what we are doing, how we are doing it, why and at what speed we are doing it. Our vision and strategy are very clear. This is not because of certain articles that you read and certain statements from NCAP. We have trust in our strategy, our brand and product." Sicard says that, for its price, the Go offers the maximum possible technology some of which also help in avoiding a collision. - See more at: http://www.autocarpro.in/news-nation....NOINGBct.dpuf

The bold highlights mine. If you look at any of the statements from Nissan, none of them deny that the Go is structurally unsound. They refer to brakes, steering, etc. If the Go was really structurally sound, why don't they come out and say it straight up. They won't, as if you or me sue them for making such claims, they'd have a high paying lawsuit on their hands.

And lastly, we're a forum of automobile enthusiasts. We know a little more than the man on the street, and anything we can do to bring down the fatalities on the World's DEADLIEST roads will be a step worth taking.

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by sadsack

Did I say anywhere that the tests were rigged? Did I disagree with the results?

Well, you said this at the end of your original post:

Not only should we now believe that all that glitters is not gold; we should also believe that all that is spoken by the likes of Mosley is not necessarily true of wise

Originally Posted by sadsack

All I asked is why is only Datsun being singled out for letter writing by Max Mosley? Why not the head honchos of all the other Indian car manufacturers whose cars fared no better. And why write to the Japanese Premier? Are we a colony of Japan?

Why has Mosley not questioned that minimum standards of crash testing in the developing world? Again why has he not written to the respective governments?

The other cars fared better than Datsun Go (although they still scored 0 stars) on structural integrity. The Go's body shell was rated extremely unstable. I hope you will agree to that since you have also accepted the test results. By watching those videos, I think even a layman can clearly see which is the worst car of the lot.

So in my view, Mosley chose to go after the worst car of the lot because it is unsafe and not just because of the lack of airbags. Fair enough. In my view, he wrote to Japanese PM because Nissan is from Japan. Considering that this particular test was aimed at cars manufactured and sold in India, I don't see why Mosley should write to any govt other than the Indian govt based on these tests. The Indian govt already had plans in place for its own crash tests before the NCAP test results were announced. After the tests, the govt has also announced its intentions to make airbags mandatory in new cars within a specified time frame. In my view, any letter from Mosley to the Indian govt on vehicle safety standards at this point is moot.

I really don't understand what the rest of your post is about.

Just because Mosley's past or his alleged hostility towards Ghosn, why should I feel any sympathy for Renault/Nissan which has put a non crash test worthy car on Indian roads?

[sadsack]

Dear Starry Sky and Chetan Rao,

I am sorry that what I started has become a heated debate. This is the last post I will make on this subject. I think I have been misunderstood. Let me just remove the names of all parties concerned and say what I have to.

1. My first point is that voluntary agencies such as GNCAP should not have any issues with one or two companies. All should be treated as the same. That has been fine till the rating of all tested cars from India (except Vento, Polo, Figo) getting the same scores, a shameful zero. It is after this that the head of GNCAP chooses to go after one manufacturer and not all of them.

2. There is no point in going to the PM of Japan; he has no legal jurisdiction of Nissan in India. Same would be true if the President of France was written to.

3. If the desired effect of GNCAP is to make cars more safer, the acts of the head of the GNCAP have not made a difference to us Indians. I am not interested in communication going around the world; action is required in India and none of the statutory bodies have been written to, so nothing changes though the BJP government says that they will put an agency in place by 2017. Crash testing agency itself is not sufficient you have to change the norms of construction of cars, keeping in view the peculiar traffic conditions of India and not just lifting some other standards as was done in the case of the pollution norms.

4. One of you has expressed displeasure at the tone of my posting which you felt was rude. You have my most sincere apologies for that, it was not my intention to be so. Just let us all shake hands and close this argument which does not seem to take us anywhere. Thank you and yet again, apologies if you felt offended.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by sadsack

Just let us all shake hands and close this argument which does not seem to take us anywhere.

Let's agree to disagree and get along by all means, but let's keep the safety debate alive (both on the forum and out in public), because it's vital that automotive safety takes (and stays) center stage in India., however late it may be.

Ultimately, we all want safer cars for all Indians (even those reluctant/unable to buy safe ones today for whatever reasons) so we're on the same side in principle. All of us may disagree on some aspects, but that's hardly reason to say the argument is going nowhere and should be put to rest

[anjan_c2007]

Long Term Test of the Datsun Go by Autocar India - article by Ms Renuka Kriplani

http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-rev...t-394483.aspx#

The main excerpt about its safety here:

Sometime back, the light build of the Datsun Go was driven home by a Jaguar, which literally drove into the side of it. The driver of the Jag misjudged his car’s long nose and gave the Go’s door a firm nudge. Only a nudge, yes, but the large dent on the Go’s rear door made it look much worse than that. There’s no getting away from the thin sheet metal the Go is built with, which once again raises a question on the Go’s body structure.
The truth is that most of the Go’s rivals are equally poor when it comes to crash worthiness. And while I didn’t feel vulnerable driving it in the city, I would think twice before I venture out on the highway.

[alavandar]

All said and done...End of the day, when I drive on the highway, I really pity those who push their tinder boxes to limit without realising the risks, to reach their destinies sorry... destinations swiftly!

[Leoshashi]

Datsun Go gets 2-star rating in ASEAN NCAP tests


I had read somewhere that Nissan/Datsun had acknowledged the weaker body shell, and they were in the process of adding reinforcements. Well, seem it has really worked.

Go, the Nissan Group's entry level car under its Datsun brand, has got a 2-star rating in a crash test conducted by the New Car Assessment Program for Southeast Asian Countries (ASEAN NCAP). The Go equipped with one airbag scored 6.82 points for its Adult Occupant Protection (AOP). This makes it eligible for a 2-star rating. Its Child Occupant Protection (COP) also achieved a 2-star rating with 46 percent compliance. In a previous test by Global NCAP in November 2014, the Go failed to get any star rating for Adult Occupant Protection. For Child Occupant Protection, it had received a 2-star rating. In June this year, Nissan offered a driver's side airbag as an option in India. It is learnt that the car's body shell has also been reinforced.

Link to the youtube video-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po5DiDTHDjQ

For those members who are unable to access Youtube, here are some images

1. Older Crash test image


2. Newer crash test image(with improved shell)



The difference is instantly appreciable. Hope this newer version makes to India soon.

Regards,

Shashi

[tbppjpr]

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

Datsun Go gets 2-star rating in ASEAN NCAP tests


I had read somewhere that Nissan/Datsun had acknowledged the weaker body shell, and they were in the process of adding reinforcements. Well, seem it has really worked.

This is indeed a great and welcoming news.

Will have to verify if its applicable for Indian 'Go' as well. If found genuine then now I have one good option in low cost segment to suggest to my knows.

Hope the other 'failed' manufacturers also start waking up and stop playing with the lives and sentiments of their customers who show belief on them and spend their hard earned money on their cars without reality check.

Nissan not only gained two stars safety ratings for this little car, they gained 2 stars of respect also from people like me for the move.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

This is indeed a great and welcoming news.

Will have to verify if its applicable for Indian 'Go' as well. If found genuine then now I have one good option in low cost segment to suggest to my knows.
Nissan not only gained two stars safety ratings for this little car, they gained 2 stars of respect also from people like me for the move.

It seems that the car scoring 2 stars was Indonesian made, not Indian. Given the previous records, we should trust the manufacturer's claims, if any, for having similar change incorporated in Indian model once the models on sale in India are tested.

Here is the link.

[Rehaan]

SP writes in with the following comment :

Crash Test: Suzuki Swift

European Made Suzuki Swift.6 Airbags, ABS, ESP etc. Note- no body deformation during crash. A perfect 5 Stars.



Indian made Suzuki Swift. Base LXi with no Air bags, ABS, ESP and blamed for a weak structure (note deformation on A Pillar). 0 Star.



Malaysian made Suzuki Swift with 2 Air Bags and ABS as standard. But take a look at the deformation on A Pillar. It’s the same as Indian made Swift. And the Malaysian made car managed to score 4 stars with a weak body, No ESP, no 6 Air Bags when compared to the European made Swift.



Indian made Suzuki Swift ZXi. 2 Air Bags and ABS.
Test Requester: NDTV
Results: Not published
Since this car (Indian Zxi) is similar to the Malaysian made Swift, it deserves a 4-stars rating? Or does the Malaysian made really deserve a 4 Star rating? Think about it.


Sources:
Maruti Swift crash test - zero star safety
ASEAN NCAP - Suzuki Swift - 4 stars in frontal offset crash test
NDTV Second India crash test with Swift ZXi
2011 Suzuki Swift - CRASH TEST EU

----------------

I guess what I have to say in reply is:

1) This is assuming that the Malaysian made & Indian made Swift are exactly the same. However, we've seen (and it's been mentioned on the forum several times) that even if it looks like the same car, there could still be differences in what's under the hood. Including parts that are put in specifically to help the car score better on crash test...

2) Surely there's other factors to the rating than simply the deformation of the A-pillar.

Keen to hear others' opinions too...