[DReddy]

Originally Posted by baahubali

I understand your emotions MHG. But let us all understand at the end of the day its a profit making business for the companies, and they do so within the Government requirements of floating a car on road in India. You are missing the point here, as I said, all the cars mentioned here are perfectly at par with the standards required by the government. All the cars before going on road are tested by ARAI, the relevant authority as required by Government.

Well said... Maybe if we could file an RTI to get the crash test videos and reports of the concerned cars conducted by ARAI, we would be in a position to comment on their relative performance. In the process we might even be heading in the direction of creating an Indian NCAP.
This thread has been one of the most thought provoking ones in T-bhp, with brilliant arguments on both sides. I only wish if some of this energy can be converted into action, we might be able to contribute in making our roads that much more safer.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by gthang

If we know the meaning of the "adjective", and if used in the right context, what is commonly known as "Name Calling", can be allowed?

Name calling as you call it, is a very healthy way of expressing oneself. I dont see any problems calling somebody a hero or a fool, especially if one articulates why, and even better if ones post under ones own name and takes responsibility for what one says in public.

If name calling results in real abusive language I believe it is inappropiate. Usually, the ones that resort to real abusive language tend to be the what I would call "the thickies of the Internet". They do not offer any real insights as to what forms their opinion, just fill up blogs with garbage. For some reason few of them know how to spell and they have a fondness for using capital letters a lot. Unfortunately the internet is full of these idiots, it can not be helped and is best ignored or on forums like these should be moderated/deleted.

I understand you might take exception on me calling certain individuals thick and idiots as you would see it as "name calling", but I would like to think a lot of people actually agree with me on the above paragraph.

I cant define the borderline between what is acceptable and what isn't. Although I would like to think that most people will be robust enough to not take offense if someone is called a fool. But I could be wrong. I've certainly been called a lot worse by people I know really well and by those whom are just an alias on the Internet. I dont loose sleep over either.

Whatever it is there are likely to be a long list of "names" that for the vast majority of us would definitely be not acceptable. But a fairly large grey area of contention exists as well between what is acceptable and what isn't.

Originally Posted by gthang

So, we are hoping that using demeaning adjectives against a person will make that person realize his folly and correct his ways?

Well, I can't speak for anybody else, but I've said it before that I dont think this forum and its content has even one iota of influence over the Car Industry at large, let alone one individual. If a discussion can only be held based on its net result on the topic at hand we'd run out of things to discuss pretty quickly.

This forum, or specifically this thread is just a discussion where individuals exchange their thoughts on a particular topic. It doesnt and probably will not have a conclussion. Nor is there likely to be a measureable effect. Some might adjust their opinions maybe a bit, based on the discussion.

Originally Posted by gthang

Or, are we using the freedom that this forum allows us to express our contempt against a person and his policies by using names?

I havent really seen anything that amounts to what I would call "abusive" language. But again, that is always in the eye of the beholder.

Originally Posted by gthang

Either way, I would like to submit that I am NOT in favor of "Calling Names", is in bad taste and strongly believe that is not the culture to encourage.

So what culture would you encourage then? I am a hardcore liberal, anything that isn't explicitly forbidden is allowed. Whether that makes it bad taste or bad manners is a matter of opinion.

Originally Posted by gthang

I realize now that this thread is dedicated solely to highlight Mr. Bhargava's folly in speaking up. And the discussion is limited to how we can ridicule him personally and in the process hope that Maruti changes it's policies.

No, I think that is "factually" incorrect, (probably just my opinion, but still!) You really should reread the whole thread and SS-Traveller summarized it well in an earlier post. There is a fundamental difference in what members think of Mr. Bhargava based on what he was saying.

Originally Posted by gthang

If the scope of the discussion could be extended a little bit, one could discuss WHAT he actually said, and also Maruti relative to other companies.

Please do, I for one, would be interested.

Originally Posted by gthang

But as I have discovered repeatedly recently, that is not allowed.

Who does not allow this? As long as you are not banned, you can put your thoughts on this or any TeamBHP thread. I certainly do!

Originally Posted by gthang

I sincerely wish this same zeal against Mr. Bhargava would be shown against some other "Scions of Industry", who unlike Mr. Bhargava, a professional answerable to a board, have greater control of their company's policies.

I'm sure there are even worse CEOs than Mr. Bhargava. But he is still accountable for his own actions or lack thereof. You can never ever (again this is just my opinion) deflect one's own responsibility by pointing at others.

So yes, road safety in India is a very complex subject. But dont point at others what they should be doing. Do what you can and should be doing yourself first. Just because there are worse CEOs then Mr. Bhargava doesnt make him a good CEO. It doesn't excuse him.

I still believe he should be doing much bettter on this particular topic.

Jeroen

[gthang]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I still believe he should be doing much bettter on this particular topic.

Jeroen

This is a more reasonable expression of your opinion and a far cry from the beginning of the thread.

Forgive my adamant behavior and I admit, personal slips.

I don't feel I have anything more to contribute to this thread.

Not that I had anything concrete or useful to offer, but just wanted to offer a different viewpoint.

Cheers

[civic-sense]

I think Mr Bhargava's statement seeks to comfort the Maruti fan-base into believing that nothing is wrong with the car. The last thing Maruti want to do is lose their loyal base. Publication of the crash test results would have produced a lot of doubting Thomas', and all they are looking for is a bit of reassurance so that they can go back to worshiping the brand. Those who are hurt and looking for some comfort would clutch on to the straws thrown by Mr Bhargava. In that sense, it is a job well done by him.

Only when you go and analyse the statements carefully would you find that his statements are indeed hollow. For example, he says that making safety features mandatory would drive prices high and would make upgraders from bike go back to their two wheels. While that could explain the lack of safety features in the base variant of Alto, it does not explain why they should skimp on safety features of a 7-9L Swift or a 10L Ciaz. Obviously, somebody upgrading from a two wheeler is not likely to look at a Swift or a Ciaz. And even if he finds himself short of budget (30K for the ABS and airbags), he can always fall back to the below segment or variant, and need not go back to his bike.

[carwatcher]

This thread has done a lot of damage to the MSIL's image in the eyes of T-BHPians atleast. Even I'll think 100 times before buying a Maruti product... But there's differnt school of thought also exists.
We have many people who strongly believe 'this can't or won't happen with me' so they believe that no one buys a car with the belief that he is going to crash it and the car will not complete its life cycle. To him, the overall package i.e. Purchase cost + maintenance cost incl total time spent in garage + cost of running per km-resale value matters most. In this regard Swift Dzire and Swift come on top with flying colours. Safety is nowhere a criteria.
If you still doubt this, then how can one explain the 'not wearing helmet by two wheelers and not putting seat belts by co-passengers or back seat occupants.
Its the people like them on whom Mr. Bhargava is counting and drawing his confidence.
OT: Its a rule on T-BHP not to make personal attacks, but this thread is full of personal attacks on Mr. RC Bhargava, though in the capacity of The Chairman, MSIL.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by carwatcher

OT: Its a rule on T-BHP not to make personal attacks, but this thread is full of personal attacks on Mr. RC Bhargava.

Are you referring to Rule#6? As far as we know Mr. RC Bhargava is not a member here.

Besides, the comments are against Mr.Bhargava, the Chairman of Maruti, not Mr.Bhargava the individual. That is a huge difference. It is not personal at all.

[arjab]

...so i guess, now, Maruti can quote its honourable Chairman's views and justify the Omni's existence for another 25 years??

[SchumiFan]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Are you referring to Rule#6? As far as we know Mr. RC Bhargava is not a member here.

Besides, the comments are against Mr.Bhargava, the Chairman of Maruti, not Mr.Bhargava the individual. That is a huge difference. It is not personal at all.

Mods, given that the common people have been termed as Mango People multiple times in the past week especially since the release of Alto K10 and the NCAP ratings, can we call the opposing group as Cartels? Like in this case, safety cartel?

Or will there be anything done to stop such practices.

[Equus]

How safe are other cars compared to their european counterparts? The i20s/ecosports?
This thread is very disturbing (much more than what Mr Bhargava has intended to)..

[MaheshY1]

Originally Posted by amitoj

I dont understand this "demand" thing. What exactly are we demanding here?
Don't we already have cars with airbags available in the market?

We are demanding to have ABS and Airbags without having to pay for:
- Alloy wheels
- Music system
- Seat covers
- Body colored ORVM and handles
- Steering mounted controls
and all the other stuff we end up paying for, by having to buy the top variant.

Or in simple words:

We need ABS and Airbags—at least as an option—even on the base variants of all cars.

This is the only reason I couldn't get the ABS and Airbags when buying Beat D recently.

There is an LT(O) variant to add ABS and Airbags to the LT variant but there is no LS(O) variant and PS(O) variant.
The LT(O) variant also comes with features I DON'T WANT; and I'm forced to cough up additional Rs. 1 Lakh if I want to be safe.

My recommendation is always the same:
1. Bring a car and set its base price
2. Add two optional packages for the car
2a. Safety Package
2b. Comfort Package
3. Price the two packages appropriately
4. Let the buyer decide whether he wants to go for the flashy rims or safety or BOTH...or none

That makes four variants for each car: None, Safety, Comfort, and Safety+Comfort.

These manufacturers want to sell Alloy wheels and Music system to the safety conscious among us. BRAVO! BRAVO!!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Equus

How safe are other cars compared to their european counterparts? The i20s/ecosports?
This thread is very disturbing (much more than what Mr Bhargava has intended to)..

I'm not entirely sure but this is what it amounts to in Europe roughly speaking:

ABS is mandatory on all new passenger cars sold in the EU as per 2007 or 2008 thereabout. I think it is also mandatory in the US although from a later date and also I think it is in combination with stability control

I don't think airbags are mandatory in all European cars, (depends per country) but I'm not aware of any car sold on the European market that does not have at least two airbags as standard. There might be the odd exception. Our 1998 Ford Fiesta in the Netherlands has airbags as standard, but no ABS.

In another thread the structural integrety of cars in India is discussed in much detail. I do get the impression its less then in other parts of the world even on apparently the same model.

Although it would be difficult to make one swooping statement it appears that in Western Countries cars do come better equipped on the passive and active safety front, either by law or otherwise. Its probably fair to say that this difference is more pronounced in the low to mid section of the market. Put differently, the more high end you go, the more safety goodies you will get as standard.

Jeroen

Jeroen

[2000rpm]

WoW!! So much emotion!

My view (which has been expressed in multiple other threads on same topic).

Indian customer are to blame for the situation along with the manufacturers. Its all about supply demand. We demand, OEMs supply.

We BHPians are concerned about a "guy with 2 wheeler" but the same guy will never think of affordability while buying a car. What he thinks of is image.

They don't mind travelling with wife, teenage boy between, 8-year old girl on the tank and new born baby in wife's arms - on a 8 year old splendor, but they will not buy a Nano base model. Why? Because it has cheap image! Thinking about this makes me furious.

We as a forum are discussing what Indians deserve, but most car users in India have already decided what they want. And going by the sales figures, this is the priority I think

1. Power Steering
2. AC
3. Music System
4. Alloy Wheels
5. Fog Lamps
6. Adjustable Steering
7. DRL (latest useless fad)

We as BHPians should increase awareness about safety and try to convert as many people as possible to opt for safety features. I think we should do our part honestly and let the country decide for themselves. I hope this government pays some attention to the safety norms.

And about Maruti, I think that message from a senior leader does indicate the mindset and attitude of the company towards its customers (in our case, that's what we deserve because we are at fault in first place).

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by baahubali

I understand your emotions MHG. But let us all understand at the end of the day its a profit making business for the companies ...

No customers, no profit.

The UK Ratners lesson is that that can happen very fast.

[carwatcher]

I slightly disagree with the list,
Power Windows (atleast the front ones) should come third.
Next is Chrome Garnish on Boot and wherever possible.
Body decals also score high.
(Source: Any car's Limited Edition feature list)

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

WoW!! So much emotion!
1. Power Steering
2. AC
3. Music System
4. Alloy Wheels
5. Fog Lamps
6. Adjustable Steering
7. DRL (latest useless fad)

[SchumiFan]

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

Indian customer are to blame for the situation along with the manufacturers. Its all about supply demand! We demand, OEMs supply!!


We as a forum are discussing what Indians deserve, but most car users in India have already decided what they want.

It's called Free Will. This is a democratic country and what seems important to one need not necessarily be of the same importance to others.

If one wants to ensure safety of their loved ones, please travel in tanks (like they wish) . But don't demand/compel others to do so. They might have different priorities in life.