[su1978]

Have gone through each and every post in detail and can safely reach the conclusion that all the BHP'ians want safer cars. The statement by Mr Bhargava is a clear intention that Maruti as a company is not at all worried about the Saftey of car occupants. He is talking like one of former railway ministers and an accused in one of the scams and is simply sounding ridiculous. I also recall one of the dialogue of Famous comedian-Mr Surender Sharma that Salman Khan got into trouble coz he killed a black Buck. Had he killed some human being, there was no issue coz in india Animal are precious, Human lives are useless.

Yes, it is 100% true that people who do not know 1% about road saftey start driving. This thread reminds me of a very old real life incidence. In the process of obtaining a driving licence in the year 1998, there was a sikh guy in front of me. When he was asked as to why do we wear helmets, he promptly replied-to avoid challan. . Jokes apart but this is the common mindset in India and these car manufacturers are using quirky logics to defend their money milking capability. Also i have observed that these manufactures have been driving their global earnings from India but when it comes to giving back the country its due, they start cribbing for the prices rise. Rather i feel that all the manufactures keep on raising the prices on some pretext or the other. Whether it is the rise in steel price or the rise is plastic cost. I remember that Govt had introduced rear seat belts as mandatory in cars in the year 2002-2003. All the manufactures had raised the prices by 2500-3000 Rs.

As far as saftey is concerned, i personally feel very secure tied to seatbelts even if i am rear passenger. Its high time that the manufactures provide lesser cosmetic/comfort(may be no wheel caps or no electrically adjustable ORVM/All four power windows/music system) but provide ABS & Airbags as standard on even the base variant.

[rajtheindian]

Originally Posted by gthang

3. The top variant is very expensive- I too Agree to it.


Apart from 3rd point, I can convince them for all others. But there seems to be a general mentality that any bad cannot happen with me. And I don't know why?

That's exactly where manufactures can pitch in. Let them bring ABS, Airbags as optional across the variants, why should safety clubbed with luxury!!
Again this won't improve the stability if there is any compromise in the structural build.

[srameshdelhi]

Safety First? Of course yes!

But, What is to be the first priority for the right safety measure. Should we focus reducing Deaths, or Should we focus reducing accidents?This is a matter of debate. Which comes first?

Not crossing on Zebra line, Non-Lane Driving, Sudden braking, No seat belt driving, High Beam driving habit, Driving on wrong side of the road, cattle on highway, Commercial activities alongside highway, Pot-holes, poor street lighting, No tail lamp/brake light, Overloading, Unsafe trucks on city roads, Zig Zag Driving of two wheelers, triples in bikes, no helmet driving, etc.. etc, The list goes on endlessly.

Though Airbag and ABS can help reducing the deaths, why not introduce measures first that will reduce accidents itself? We are comparing with Developed Countries who did that first and then to further reduce, went on developing things like Airbag, ABS etc.

We trying the otherway around. That is where the problem is.

By the way, can somebody suggest how do I check the airbag fitted in the car is in perfect working condition? Or we have no right to check as they are manufactured at World Class plants and we poor Indians better dare not to challenge them. In my opinion, until a solution is found to check the functionality of Airbag by the user, they should not be allowed to be added in a car. It gives a false sense of safety.

Some of the members write in such a way that if Europeans do something (read GNCAP), we better accept it, because we are no one to question them due to the poor standard we live in. Sad!

[Cuatro]

These are outrageous statements by a supposedly responsible person who is sitting at the head of a leading car manufacturing company.
This is unacceptable.

What I don't understand is that the car companies easily give :
- Music system worth at least Rs. 5000 - 6000
- Foot mats worth about rs.2000
- Warranty and maintenance schemes etc
for free?!

And they can't acknowledge that ABS and Airbags which are proven life savers as necessities in the automobiles that they produce?

I am totally perplexed!
Something is seriously wrong with the Indian Auto Industry.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by srameshdelhi

Safety First? Of course yes!

But, What is to be the first priority for the right safety measure. Should we focus reducing Deaths, or Should we focus reducing accidents?
This is a matter of debate.

Certainly we should. The bottom-line cause of Indian road havoc is nothing to do with cars, it is to do with untrained, untested, undisciplined drivers and lack of law enforcement. That is not a matter of debate even!

Which comes first?

How about both. It doesn't have to be a choice.

Though Airbag and ABS can help reducing the deaths, why not introduce measures first that will reduce accidents itself? We are comparing with Developed Countries who did that first and then to further reduce, went on developing things like Airbag, ABS etc.

The argument is a bit vague, but that's partly because Airbags and ABS are two things that have been focussed on. You should certainly add car body design and build as being more important, possibly followed by seat belts, which we have already (but sure, how many ignore).

The big problem is that changing all the problems with the drivers cannot be don in less than a generation --- or possibly even two. Making vehicles safer can be done right now. So it looks like the candidate for immediate action. But I'd hate to see it used as an excuse for putting off the other stuff.

I'm not happy with the comparison with "developed countries." Stuff didn't really happen in a linear fashion like that, and even if it did, that would be no reason to say that we must go to the start of the line and follow on.

One thing is sure: it is better to learn from the mistakes of others. It hurts more and costs less than insisting on learning it all for oneself, from scratch. This goes for countries as well as individuals.

India is a huge country with a huge and growing number of motor vehicles: it must address all the problems all at once.

(No idea how to check that an airbag is even there, let alone working.)

[srameshdelhi]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

(No idea how to check that an airbag is even there, let alone working.)

How come the self-help-manual-happy Europeans have developed such a thing called Airbag, fitment of which can't be checked and verified by a buyer for its use and deployment. Just think about it, as we often find small petty things missed out in car assembly by a stupid technician who is in a hurry to complete his job, if Airbag is forgotten to put inside/wrongly folded/properly not connected etc., etc how on earth you and me are going to check that. May be after becoming a ghost?

As basic rule, are safety equipments not meant to be periodically inspected for its working? what went wrong in this?

[tbppjpr]

Whole discussion has took the wrong direction.

There is another dedicated thread discussing about airbag/ABS. This thread was started when CEO of Maruti ruled out need of safe cars. Add to that, few of their vehicles sold in India were found compromised on structurally compared to what they sell elsewhere in the world.

Airbags and ABS weren't even in question here.

[srameshdelhi]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

Airbags and ABS weren't even in question here.

These are the two things that are being considered to be added as a Compulsory Fitment for all cars by Govt which made Mr. Bhargava to make those comments as it might increase the price of his Alto/A-star (Entry level) cars by 30K to 40K. Therefore they are being discussed.

[tbppjpr]

Originally Posted by srameshdelhi

These are the two things that are being considered to be added as a Compulsory Fitment for all cars by Govt which made Mr. Bhargava to make those comments as it might increase the price of his Alto/A-star (Entry level) cars by 30K to 40K. Therefore they are being discussed.

But the discussion has now got stuck only around Airbags and ABS, majority of posts are talking only about airbags/ABS. Basic problem is what about the quality of car's structure? If car's structure itself is not crash worthy then no airbag/ABS gonna save the occupants. Mr. Maruti is also refusing relevance of the crash tests. That is major concern than the airbags etc.

[saket77]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

But the discussion has now got stuck only around Airbags and ABS, majority of posts are talking only about airbags/ABS. Basic problem is what about the quality of car's structure? If car's structure itself is not crash worthy then no airbag/ABS gonna save the occupants. Mr. Maruti is also refusing relevance of the crash tests. That is major concern than the airbags etc.

True. All that we are discussing is SRS - Supplemental. The car's structure is the Primary safety feature. If the primary is not in place or upto the standards, do not expect wonders from SRS. Now, this is obviously blatant costcutting - substandard monocoque of the car. I was not too disappointed when I read the results for the Alto K10, but it was really really disappointing to read the results & comments for the Indian Swift.

I would also like to know if Maruti cars manufactured before the cost-cutting era, say like before year 2K were also that weak in terms of structural integrity? That may not be too much relevant now, but the what gives rise to this thought is that body panels of that era of Maruti cars feel a lot stronger and thicker than the present ones.

[tbppjpr]

Originally Posted by saket77

but the what gives rise to this thought is that body panels of that era of Maruti cars feel a lot stronger and thicker than the present ones.

There are two things - one is thicker panel and second is stronger and better quality panel which may not weigh as much as a thicker panel. But more important is the strength of outer panels don't matter in safety assessment. If that was the case then no body would have died in the buses, trucks, jeeps, tractors etc. What matters is the strength and design of the internal chassis/structure.

If you talk about Maruti car models of pre 2K then one thing has to be noted that the models available were like M800, Zen, Gypsee, Esteem etc. where none of them can be called stronger vehicle. Swift was kind of first safer offering by Maruti in India and I still feel that the first generation Indian Swift might also have had a compromised built quality but it was far better than the ongoing Swift.

[saket77]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

There are two things - one is thicker panel and second is stronger and better quality panel which may not weigh as much as a thicker panel. But more important is the strength of outer panels don't matter in safety assessment. If that was the case then no body would have died in the buses, trucks, jeeps, tractors etc. What matters is the strength and design of the internal chassis/structure.

Of course, that is the fact. But was not my point exactly. Going by the theory of what's outside, is inside; I was thinking that would those cars be any stronger? It is almost certain that the reduction in sheet thickness had more to do with costs than use of stronger & thin metals when it comes to Maruti. However, better to leave the point here as it may derail the discussion on this thread.

And now I think it is unfair to bash only Mr. RCB on this comment as many other manufacturers are echoing the same sentiments as stated by recent news.

Bhargava's views are echoed by other top manufacturers. Rakesh Srivastava, senior VP (sales & marketing) at Hyundai Motor India, said that companies are not averse to providing high-end safety features on cars. "But is it required? Some customers may want to look at affordability. Enhanced safety features would also mean increased costs. Would we be affordable then?"

"The average driving speed in India is slower than Europe. So mandating air bags and other features will not be of much help. Rather, we should ensure road discipline and adherence to traffic rules," said a manufacturer.

Jnaneswar Sen, senior VP (marketing & sales) at Honda India, said the government should mandate safety norms, but not how they need to be achieved.

Pravin Shah, CEO of Mahindra's automotive division, said that companies are already providing an option of high-end safety features to customers through top-end variants.

Link:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...w/45244930.cms

There are some ridiculous arguments in there. Mahindra says that they are providing the safety kit with the top variants - So is safety same as luxury?

Honda says that Govt. should only mandate the norms, not the methods - So how do they plan to achieve the 'mandated norms'? By superhuman methods?

Other one says that driving speed is slower than Europe, so no need for safety features - SO what is the number of Indian fatalities is among highest in the world?

Hyundai has the heart to ask that is 'safety required in India'? Why? Are we, Indians immortal or are we not entitled to be safe as others in the world?

Time for Govt. to mandate things. We all know that if Euro emission norms would have not been mandated in 2000, we would have been still getting our carburetors tuned and burning more fuel and polluting the environment a lot more. Not to mention the seatbelts too. The manufacturers, esp. Maruti made a lot of hue and cry then too.

[DReddy]

Since the topic has moved towards structural strength of chassis, I have a question for the well informed Bhpian. Assuming that a maruti 800 and an ambassador are crashed against a wall in similar conditions independently(similar to NCAP), which one would be safer for the occupants and why?

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by srameshdelhi

How come the self-help-manual-happy Europeans have developed such a thing called Airbag, fitment of which can't be checked and verified by a buyer for its use and deployment. Just think about it, as we often find small petty things missed out in car assembly by a stupid technician who is in a hurry to complete his job, if Airbag is forgotten to put inside/wrongly folded/properly not connected etc., etc how on earth you and me are going to check that. May be after becoming a ghost?

As basic rule, are safety equipments not meant to be periodically inspected for its working? what went wrong in this?

When did you last take apart your brakes? When did you last disasemble your engine, just to make sure that all the bits were there, ticked off against the service manual diagrams?

I am not really sure what point you trying to make, but I am pretty certain you are not succeeding.

[srameshdelhi]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

When did you last take apart your brakes? When did you last disasemble your engine, just to make sure that all the bits were there, ticked off against the service manual diagrams?

I am not really sure what point you trying to make, but I am pretty certain you are not succeeding.

Of course all the above are being done periodically when the car is given for service, and we can very well have a look at it if we want to.

However, you are entitled to your opinion that these things does not require periodic inspection, if that is what your view is. I will respect that. Also, will appreciate if you can avoid personal remarks.