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Old 18th March 2016, 16:27   #361
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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
responding "off the cuff" to your post, and wondering if there are assertions that more safety devices make people less careful?

Sadly, it is true. (well, I suppose I should append an in my humble opinion!) I believe that one can find posts here that imply that, ABS, for example, allows a person to drive faster and/or with less concern for basic safety.

My thinking is this: I look for ABS when buying a car; after that, I forget it. If it functions at all, then some sort of emergency or problem has occurred. In normal driving, it is sitting there doing absolutely nothing, and I would be very happy if it was to do absolutely nothing through my driving life! Life (including my driving) being imperfect, that will probably not be the case, but, because I have ABS will never, ever actively influence, or be seen to be an enabling influence, in any driving manouvere that I make.
I've thought about this. And recently in a caffeine induced epiphany tried to recall the number of Alto /Auto rickshaws / kinetic scooters /Vespa /chetak scooters /A segment hatches I've come across in accidents.

I couldn't recall any. Not one from my days in Emergency Room as an intern for a year and then 2 years as an EMO.

Then I came to the conclusion that I can't recall them as I hadn't been looking for them.

Now I am more conscious of the cars I come across in Accident cases.


But personally, I ride a scooter around town and never go beyond 40-45, so I imagine it is hard to ride/drive these vehicles at speed as they have poor ergonomics /handling /braking.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the members of the forum who own these vehicles are reminded every time they log on about their 'unsafe' vehicles and probably think about safe defensive driving more than a guy with a zippy TSI or something.


Last edited by drsingh : 18th March 2016 at 16:30.
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Old 18th March 2016, 18:40   #362
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

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Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
I agree that the licensing system in India is not anything to be proud of. But, I must say, it is improving. At least from the part of the country I got my licenses from - Trivandrum, Kerala. License test is 2 step process on the test day.

1. Drive in a H pattern track which involves driving in forward and reverse including turning right and left while on reverse. Engine getting off or going off the track (touching the metal rods marking the boundary) will disqualify you immediately. This step is video-graphed to prevent any sort of corruption. It is another matter that the driving schools train you well enough to tackle this track - but the attempt from RTO is honest IMO.

2. Drive on the open road and here the car has to be driven in all the forward gears. I was told that the evaluation is based on various parameters including adjusting driving position, adjustment and usage of ORVM and IRVM, usage of indicators, usage of hand signals, following speed restrictions and other traffic signals, following lanes, overtaking, regard for pedestrians, etc. Engine getting off in the course of driving will also lead to disqualification. However, the total time on the road will be ~ 5-7 mins only.

This was around 2 years back..
I got my license back in 2005 in Ernakulam, specifically under the Aluva RTO. They had this procedure then. And the AMVI who sat in the passenger seat even looked at how we adjusted the seat, mirrors etc. and whether we checked the instruments and made sure the handbrake was off. The road used for the test had a slope on the way back and he would specifically ask us to suddenly stop by the side of the road, when driving in the fast lane (you had to change lanes properly and get into the fast lane at least once).
He observed whether the driver switched on the indicators and showed necessary hand signals including the slowing down and stop ones. He would then ask the person driving to start off on the upward slope. He didn't mind whether you used the hand brake or half clutch method but if you rolled back, you would get disqualified.

Stark contrast to what I saw when I accompanied a friend of mine in Chennai just last year, where they just asked the driver to drive forward a hundred metres or so and reverse without stalling.
Two wheelers was a bigger joke, 2 stones placed in the middle of a road, a scooty to ride and a mandate to drive a figure of 8 around the stones at any radius of your choice, as long as you managed without putting a foot down or just putting your foot down once you got your license.
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Old 18th March 2016, 18:45   #363
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

The problem is that Motor Vehicle/RTO comes under the purview of the state. The act maybe a central govt act, but complete control to give Driving License, registration, take road tax etc is in the states power. Hence, the way to get a Driving License will vary from state to state.

The only way to overcome this is for the central govt to directly take over the testing procedure or outsource it to a reputed private agency.

If you have applied for a passport lately you will find that most of the document verification, initial interview, etc has been outsourced to TCS. The passport officer only does the last and final interview after all the formalities are complete. This essentially reduces corruption to a large extent.
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Old 18th March 2016, 23:46   #364
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by drsingh View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the members of the forum who own these vehicles are reminded every time they log on about their 'unsafe' vehicles and probably think about safe defensive driving more than a guy with a zippy TSI or something.
I used to be a hobby sailor, and have always been a guy who just loves messing around in boats --- but I can't swim. Now, I can, and do, say that I never forget that I can't swim and makes me, in some ways, a safer sailor than one who who underestimates the danger of the sea and overestimates their own capability. But, perhaps at times my safety relied on me remembering that, and I wonder how often we all forget just how unsafe our cars actually are, whether they are M800s or Mercedes. Me? Well, most days, I guess. I do try to remember that it is just a thin metal box, and my idea of its strength is mostly illusion.

So would I advise potential small-boat sailors not to learn to swim? Of course not! I'd advise all the safety measures.
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Old 27th August 2018, 21:55   #365
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

The Cat is finally out of bag. Maybe there are more hidden cats in the bag?

https://www.rushlane.com/cars-to-get...-12279335.html
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Old 27th August 2018, 22:33   #366
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

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Originally Posted by ckranjan View Post
Hmm, that kinda explains why my 10+ year old Grand Vitara is still holding up well.

Last edited by Samurai : 27th August 2018 at 22:39.
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Old 20th December 2022, 09:45   #367
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

Mr. Bhargava makes few more ridiculous statements post Swift, Ignis and S-Presso scoring 0 in NCAP tests.

https://www.evoindia.com/motorsport/...h-test-results

Given the price point at which Maruti offers it's car and the features included with them, safety definitely takes a back seat. We would not see any changes unless cars with less than 3 star rating are being prevented from getting sold in the market.
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Old 20th December 2022, 10:00   #368
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

Cannot grow an auto sector with 50% taxation: R C Bhargava

Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements-fkzdvrgayauhnoh.jpg
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Old 20th December 2022, 12:32   #369
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

At this point of time I don't even expect MSIL to work on the safety aspect. Would be interesting to see how the Grand Vitara will fare. Because I don't think it will be able to get more than 3 stars.

As far as safety comes at a price is concerned. The Swift is more expensive than the Tiago. So I don't get the narrative of safety coming at a price.
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Old 20th December 2022, 14:07   #370
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

Every time one gets into the car, they are exposed to some amount of risk and the point of safety ratings and regulators making them mandatory is to reduce that risk significantly. Can't imagine the chairman of the market leading manufacturer trying to show the regulators in a bad light.

This is the problem when safety is called a feature. Theoretically, every accident can be avoided so the root cause is the person behind the wheel and not the car itself but all that he claims costs money, are absolute necessities. While road infrastructure, educating drivers and pushing offences are all important, the human element may still cause accidents just like in the developed nations; in fact, more so in our country where stray dogs and cattle are a normal part and parcel of everyday driving. Instead of emphasising on the added importance of safety in our country, blaming the driver for accidents and shying away from safety equipment is senseless banter.
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Old 20th December 2022, 14:21   #371
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivek.ks View Post
Mr. Bhargava makes few more ridiculous statements post Swift, Ignis and S-Presso scoring 0 in NCAP tests.
Without for a moment defending the abysmal safety ratings on the Maruti vehicles, if you read the article you yourself have quoted, you will realise that the points mentioned have merit:

Quote:
When talking about road safety in India, Bhargava focuses on reducing the number of accidents rather than the crash safety in itself. “Putting NCAP standards into cars in India will have no significant impact on number of accidents at all,” he says. This is a fair argument to make, because NCAP tests determine what a car does after the accident happens. He continues to elaborate on what he believes are the big concerns that need to be addressed.

“There are two major areas we [India] are way behind others. [First is] Vehicle fitness. How do you ensure vehicles on road remain as compliant with safety features [that were installed during manufacturing]? There are no laws, no regulation, to govern that. [There is] No certification for vehicle fitness. Lots of accidents due to failure of some systems,” he says.

He then goes on to the second bit of his argument: “How much does a person who gets a license know how to drive safely and correctly? There’s no such thing in India (referring to rigorous training and licensing laws in other countries). Driver error is major cause [of accidents]… not only driver, but other factors like wrong side driving.” He goes on to talk about other seemingly unimportant factors on the road that do go a long way to contributing to road safety. “We can’t do a simple thing like putting proper signages.” Circling back to the safety systems on cars, he says, “We are looking at safety features that make them [cars] more expensive. [But] Is it not as important to have proper vehicle and driver fitness?”
I must say that both points are spot-on. Look at the number of accidents reported on the Mumbai-Pune expressway or the Mumbai-Ahmedabad highway for instance. There have been high-profile fatal accidents that are directly attributable to one or more of the following factors: poor road design, unscientific speed limits, vehicles "losing control" because they are just not roadworthy anymore, driver error etc. etc. You could travel in a 5* rated vehicle and still be killed because a 30-year old truck jumped the median and hit you head on. Or a speeding motorbike came the wrong way with the same outcome.

India is fast heading towards a situation where we will have the safest cars on the most unsafe roads. How is this a desirable outcome?
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Old 20th December 2022, 14:50   #372
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

Quote:
“Putting NCAP standards into cars in India will have no significant impact on number of accidents at all,” he says.
Fair. Buutt..

Quote:
This is a fair argument to make, because NCAP tests determine what a car does after the accident happens.
Exactly! Isn't this important? While avoiding accidents are critical (via better safety regulations, infrastructure, driver training etc. etc.) eventually when an accident does happen, it needs to protect the occupants. That's why safety rating is not an option. It is the last failsafe.

We can argue left right and center and ask would a 5* car protect against a plane doing an emergency landing on it. This kind of argument defeats the whole point of discussion. The safety rating in a car minimizes the probability of causing serious injuries/death to occupants. It neither prevents accidents nor does it guarantee safety all the time.

By Bhargava's logic, if we have all the bells and whistles in terms of safety regulations, infrastructure, driver training etc. it is okay to have cars with poor safety ratings? Well.. let's look at western countries where all of these systems are in place. We do know how that story goes right. Suzuki's own cars in these markets fare better in safety in these countries.

I'm not dissing on Maruti cars. They are excellent in terms of VFM but I think focus should be given on Safety without compromises and hiding behind a deflection which, while true, only makes the case stronger for better safety ratings.

Last edited by krishnakumar : 20th December 2022 at 14:52.
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Old 20th December 2022, 15:07   #373
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

Road safety is such a wide topic that we need to work on ALL fronts SIMULTANEOUSLY!

While all the points he has made are perfectly right, it does not mean we stand and watch from the sidelines waiting for the other things to change.

Global NCAP started the India campaign back in 2014, so Maruti had all the time in the world to engineer new platforms to be ground up strong enough to perform well in crash tests. Instead they continue to give this area very low priority and perfer to stick to statements justifying their actions
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Old 20th December 2022, 15:27   #374
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by noopster View Post
India is fast heading towards a situation where we will have the safest cars on the most unsafe roads. How is this a desirable outcome?
Bullseye

I am glad that crash-safety has finally got the much needed popularity it truly deserves. While the positives have been well known there are some important fallouts/side-effects of this, in order of importance :

1. I feel that the biggest cause/contributors to the accidents are getting side-stepped i.e. drivers and roads.
To be more specific :
- The Quality of Drivers which includes training and licensing
- The Quality and Design of our Roads which includes markings and signages which are legible and contribute in averting an accident rather than being hidden away and used only for collecting fines.
- Enforcement of Rules which in turn leads to better drivers and less chaos

With the attention on the star rating for cars, no one is asking the authorities for even basic accountability and sense in what they do or rather what they don't do. They are happy not doing what they get paid for from public funds while the public pays for safer cars and in quite a few lakh sad cases with lives and livelihoods.

2. Some buyers of the star-rated cars somehow have started to get this air of invincibility about them and their vehicles. This is just wrong and while they're entitled to wrap their cars around or into whatever structure or ditch they choose, in a lot of cases they're fellow motorists and public. That is not right.


Safety is an attitude and a never ending process of improvements but if this becomes a shouting down of reasonable arguments, its not achieving its objective, IMHO.

Last edited by shancz : 20th December 2022 at 15:32. Reason: expl
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Old 20th December 2022, 19:55   #375
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re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivek.ks View Post
Mr. Bhargava makes few more ridiculous statements post Swift, Ignis and S-Presso scoring 0 in NCAP tests
Next time he will claim that they make structurally unsafe cars to make the Indian drivers more safety conscious
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