[ramzsys]

Originally Posted by gthang

It is paranoia. Hope it doesn't keep you away from driving altogether.

It does.

The sort of accidents reported(here in this forum or in the newspapers) are forcing people to avoid taking their own cars and book a seat in a Volvo B9R instead.

......................

By the way, the poor i knew are buying used Ikons, palios, corsas, astras, Uno, Sienas, Petras. Because they cannot afford to buy a used Maruti 800- higher resale is to blame.

The Bhargavas of the industry got anything to say about that?

[rajtheindian]

@ Gthang : Interesting thoughts..... make me thinking, Why should one give vaccines to their babies, there are other deceases out there in the world. The best way to keep healthy is really to keep away from people with illness, not taking vaccines!!!
What Maruti and many other manufactures does is tie Safety with Luxury, i.e. only the fully loaded top end will get safety features, the lower end is neglected! Why can't they give it as an option across board, i.e. LX, VX, let them have a safety option pack. Let the customers have the right options to chose what they want.
I feel the ABS is needed in RURAL india, where the roads are slippery, twisted. Once I have experienced the benefits of ABS on a Rural road.

[jfxavier]

The link or "suggested" link between safety and Luxury has been a major hurdle in getting the best product for an Indian car buyer.
Even the so called luxury cars are over priced in India.
In another country, someone can buy a car in a segment higher for the same price that we pay for a "safe" car in India.
The price of a vehicle probably has less to do with the actual cost of manufacturing and more to do with the purchasing capacity of the targeted customer.

[GrammarNazi]

I wonder what makes him think he's qualified to represent the Indian buyer.

Just because they sell many cars, nobody at Maruti(or any other company) holds any brief for the Indian consumer. They're just sellers.

In my criticism if I say that "Maruti is incapable of selling cars with airbags", I would definitely be questioned, since nothing qualifies me to make such a claim.

Maruti cares 2 hoots for our safety, and IMO Such press releases by senior officials at he company are meant to mislead the government and people.

For example, It's understandable for the sake of internal discussions where we at team bhp try to consider different perspectives, but supposing if the official announcement takes such a stand, wouldn't you'll be furious?

... Thanks to shrewd businessmen, mobility of several Lakhs have improved.

True, but it's going too far when they do it at the cost of safety.
People have lost lives (if that matters to you). And it will continue. This is what makes things a bit too serious. Else if it was something else, we're the lenient Chalta-Hai crowd.

It won't make a bit of difference because anyone in touch with reality and those that make these decisions know well what the majority of Indian consumers want and need.

We're all quite well in touch with reality, hence we ask for safer cars. What Indian consumers want is what we want, it's a different thing if many people have decided to make-do with what Maruti / the Auto-market sells.

It's not as though Maruti does not have cars with safety features, but at a cost. Whether you want to pay that cost is and should be a personal prerogative in a cost-conscious and predominantly POOR country like India.

We may be a poor country, but we pay just as well as others.

Now, if all over the country we had good roads, and high speed driving is the norm, then the required safety features should be as well. But it is NOT so in India.

Btw, if you have ever even seen an Indian highway, you wouldn't say that it's OK to sell cars that are structurally unsound at crashes in speeds higher than 64kmph.

[gthang]

Wow!! What Hypocrisy!!

Used to think this was a forum to discuss ideas. Did not know that the manifest has changed and is now pushing agendas.

Originally Posted by ramzsys

It does.

The sort of accidents reported(here in this forum or in the newspapers) are forcing people to avoid taking their own cars and book a seat in a Volvo B9R instead.

Isn't that a good thing? Shouldn't public transportation be encouraged in the interest of pollution and fuel conservation?

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

We may be a poor country, but we pay just as well as others.

Really? The cost of entry to a four wheeler in India is the same as rest of the world? The driver training requirements are the same? Are you thinking of the developed world, or only our immediate neighbors?

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

Btw, if you have ever even seen an Indian highway, you wouldn't say that it's OK to sell cars that are structurally unsound at crashes in speeds higher than 64kmph.

What level of crash worthiness does Indian highway need? 3 stars? 4 stars?
Is it OK to sell 3 wheelers that offer no safety at all? Is it OK to sell goods carriers with no safety at all? Is it OK to sell rickety bodied school buses?

Have you seen any of the above in an Indian highway?

Guess your angst is limited to only vehicles that are in your scope of purchase. Damn the rest!!

Cheers

[jfxavier]

Originally Posted by ramzsys

So the same NCAP ratings were used to sell the Swift here and when caught with pants down, then the same NCAP ratings are a farce?

If this is true, then the swift owners, especially those with the high end versions have been sold a lie.
They believed that they are getting the best that the car maker has on offer.
They should file a case in the court or consumer protection forum.

[wilful]

If making a car more affordable to the aspiring Indian 2 wheeler owners is by not including safety features that would otherwise push the prices up by inclusion beyond his reach, why not remove some more and make things even more affordable?
Let's not have seat belts or headrests (whiplash injuries are pretty rare anyway in India) or crumple zones. Let's go back to the good old Ambassador days of the 60s and 70s. Till India makes good safe roads or adopts better driving practices or has better law enforcement etc.
In any case the man who graduates from a 2 wheeler is safer driving a car like the good old Amby minus all these new fangled safety features features.
Oh- but let's keep features like the aircon and power steering on most models. Those anyway do not push it beyond his reach.

[noopster]

Originally Posted by lillios

Yes but thats the issue here isnt it? How do we know that Global NCAP will maintain such standards? If their results can be bought, what is the point of getting them over here in the first place? We are better off setting up something indigenous no? Not forcing an opinion, but rather would like to see your point of view on the issue, as were all in the same boat here.

It's a fair point but the only parallel I can think of is Big Pharma pushing their own corrupt agendas on one hand and providing life-saving drugs where needed on the other. I agree that there is no substitute for solid homegrown legislation (and implementation of the same, needless to say) but since we fall woefully short on that right now, adopting a readymade template like NCAP's makes sense, despite its flaws. Hope this clarifies.

[Carophilic]

Originally Posted by noopster

What do you expect from a company that omits airbags and ABS from all its AT variants just to keep prices down?

As for that other misguided fool, I can only pity him. No point discussing what he has blogged and give him even more credence than he deserves.

Just because we do not agree to someone's opinions doesn't make the other person a "fool". As a mod, it would be best to comment in a more balanced manner.

[noopster]

Originally Posted by Carophilic

Just because we do not agree to someone's opinions doesn't make the other person a "fool". As a mod, it would be best to comment in a more balanced manner.

It is a personal opinion- feel free to counter it. I honestly feel anyone who writes a blog titled To Hell With NCAP Safety Rating and equates road safety norms with

global warming "scams"

deserves all the contempt they get.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by gthang

Wow!! What Hypocrisy!!

Used to think this was a forum to discuss ideas. Did not know that the manifest has changed and is now pushing agendas.
...
...

I guess the anger here is more because he trivialized the issue of safety to justify his organisation. And then he said that in India only 16% of the fatalities happen inside the cars. That only 16% accounts to around 24000 deaths, which by no means is a small number.
-------------

Even if we ignore the jibes on ABS and airbags, there is no reason to provide a global model (Swift) with inferior structural rigidity. If the so called premium hatchback cannot prove its crash-worthiness, what about those models below? Atleast a minimum responsibility should be shown for their target customers who graduate from unsafe two-wheelers to the safety of cars.

And why bother to highlight on safety (in their website), if he don’t see it as a key requirement for the cars they produce?

It says "Safety Reborn"...! Really?

[Equus]

The masses want the safety now - MSIL seems to be getting it wrong! They usually are perfectly in sync with the pulse of the consumers!
Maybe they think they cant compete as much once the safety based ratings are norm!

I thought Mahindra was the worst when it came to safety, but MSIL seems to be intent on taking that crown! I rated TATA also much higher than M&M.
EU has made ESP (or ESC) mandatory now!

[lurker]

We have now reached a situation where Maruti cars except Grand Vitara and Kizashi on highways is unsafe. Even SX4 has proved unsafe ever since the Gopinath Munde incident. A slight nudge on it's side proved fatal for occupant.

This problem is magnified now since cars are being increasingly used for highway travel. And highway speed limits have been increased repeatedly. As a result, any Maruti on a highway is not a safe feeling for the driver as well as the passenger.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Xeno

The Swift is structurally unstable as determined by NCAP. Even the addition of abs or airbags will make no difference to the safety.

Provide the link or the source which states what you have written above, the part highlighted in bold with regard to the Swift.

[allajunaki]

Wow, this thread is really long, and either side making some of the perfectly valid opinions (IMHO).

First, regarding any crash tests. NCAP, GCAP, PCAP..err, sorry not the PCAP (Techies may giiggle now).
If you watch these videos closely, almost all of them show crash against a non-deformable object, and hence, the car in question takes all the impact. But in most of the real life scenario, you hit another car, a building, or a pole. These tend to absorb most of the impact, so even if the impact speed is 64, your vehicle may not be the sole entity absorbing the impact. Another aspect is, NCAP has a few template crashes, but accidents are anything but template. So, YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary), when it comes to actual crash.
So, does it mean NCAP is useless? No, not by a long shot! NCAP is like ARAI rating in Fuel Efficiency, Sometimes you barely get there, other times you tend to exceed. Like I said YMMV, but generally a good indicator of safety of the car.

Second, Making the Acronyms mandatory : ABS, EBD, TCS, Infy (Hehe, repetition of same joke, this time all non techies can giggle).
Making these acronyms mandatory will achieve little. It is similar to making helmets mandatory.
What's wrong with mandatory helmets? Well, first, at least here is Bangalore, almost no-one Straps the helmet, and majority of those who strap, does so with a very very loose (Reference : ). None of which is going to help you in an instance of a crash. In fact, an unstrapped helmet means one less video/photo of a guy withering in pain on the road. Why? Because, at a collision, the helmet turns out into heat seeking missile that will take out the closest pedestrian. And with nothing outside (or inside) the riders head, it will dent like an Aluminium utensil (or bend like the iphone6).
So before you call me an intellectual (or a hippie) asking against helmet rule. I wear a full face Helmet (LS2). I wear "Rjays", padded, nylon Mesh Jacket, Spartan Leather Gloves with double stitching and impact guards, Denim pants and woodlands leather shoes that goes upto ankles. My wife wears full face helmet, reasonably padded jacket,denims and shoes while riding with me. Yes, this is how we travel to office on Bike.
So what was the point about the entire paragraph, that you wasted your 0.0001% of your life, all about? Acronyms are ONLY useful if the shell is strong. In fact, some of the cars sold in India had Cabin intrusion in crash. So even with Airbags and Seatbelts will make sure that you wont die immediately. But with a logo of your beloved manufacturers in your chest or face, and a tight embrace of steering wheel.
Again, unless Government MANDATES structural rigidity, most of the acronyms are wasted. So, yes crash tests are needed.

Third, chalta hai! :
Educate the drivers! Why? Airbags are useless without seatbelts. ABS is useless, if you did not know what it is meant to do. And none of these are substitute for sensible driving, but aide, when things do not go as per your plan. When I see an Audi ripping through the highway, I sometimes try to compete with him, but ultimately realise that, his car has more acronyms to save his derrière when things not go to his plan than I do (not to mention vastly superior brakes, suspension and Shell). So I will NOT take the same risks as he does, nor will I maintain similar distances has he does. His car will probably have a pair of camera eyes, radar and bunch of supercomputers working with him. His car is probably more aware of the environment than he is.For my car, Im the whole world, all it does is respond to my pedal inputs and my commands to steer, only thing she'll worry about is getting the fuel air mix right.

Fourth (Yes, Im not done):
What is the point of all the safety rules, when the ARAI itself is corrupt! Yes, there are corruption in ARAI. Believe it or not, we do have "Some" crash norms in India, and some of our cars do not even meet them! Come on, do you really think an OMNI will pass ANY crash test at all? But palms greased, engineers with new LED TV / Bike / Car later, we have Omni selling along side Super safe Swift and Wagon R (Relatively of course). In fact one of the best sellers had the entire seat rip off from the floor during a crash test. Do you think seat belts and airbags would help you when you and your seats are bouncing in gay abandon inside compromised shell of your car. But ARAI passed the car, and one or more of the ARAI's engineers had a temporary boost in their standard of living.

I may have ruffled a few feathers here, I tried my best not to. But I had to get it off my chest. Of course my thinking may be wrong (and in some instances I really wish I was wrong).