[Car-go-man]

What a lame excuse for not being able to provide the safety features as standard.

If not standard, at least provide it as an option on all the variants including the base so that people looking for safety features are not forced to buy an overpriced top-end variant.

[Diesel_convert]

Thanks gthang for the valiant attempt at a rational defense.

I will just say this.

Given a choice between a structurally strong car with out airbags and structurally weak car with airbags/abs which one would you pick ?

I know where I want that extra 20,000 to go.

Same thing, with a car for Rs 1.5L vs an expensive motorcycle with a family on it.

Its a choice that people must make. And currently there is no lack of choice in the market!

The information to make the choice is what the government should provide with out any bias.
so a indigenous testing program without European influence is needed!

As an example of why not euro standards :
European manufacturers/safety organisations are increasing bonnet heights to prevent pedestrian injuries. This is firstly designed based on average hip heights of Europeans and not Indians, it might do more harm than good!

I would also say this measure increases risk to pedestrians greatly due to reduced visibility in our scenario.

Airbags also are dangerous for people below approx 5' in height, these systems are not redesigned for us!

They are known for killing Asian women in US/EU.

Do no harm is also applicable to safety systems I think and not just doctors!

Raising awareness about safety is important, but it must come from the government and not an industry body trying to push certain products down our throats. Removing stars just for not having air bags is a case in point.

Anyway, in my opinion raising awareness on safety is important, but the same money spent on driver training will probably reduce more deaths than anything else.

Lets pick the low hanging fruits first and not be pushed into something in a hurry because someone wants to make some money!

[ramzsys]

Originally Posted by allajunaki

we have Omni selling along side Super safe Swift and Wagon R (Relatively of course).

The least the government could do not to let Omni be registered as a passenger car. Not that the Tata Ace is not ferrying passengers, it may act as a deterrent.

Now wait, SIAM will come to Maruti's defense!

Originally Posted by Diesel_convert

European manufacturers/safety organisations are increasing bonnet heights to prevent pedestrian injuries. This is firstly designed based on average hip heights of Europeans and not Indians, it might do more harm than good!

So this is why i couldn't see the immediate few feet or the sides of the road when i sit in the Ecosport, eh

[baahubali]

What Mr. Bhargava said is right from the Indian perspective. The NCAP is rating the Indian cars as per European standards. However, all the cars mentioned here are perfectly at par the standards required by Indian Government Regulations.

The kind of safety norms everybody is talking about will be implemented in India only in 2017. The revised crash test norms will be effective sometime in 2017.

Hope all understand my point here.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Carophilic

Just because we do not agree to someone's opinions doesn't make the other person a "fool". As a mod, it would be best to comment in a more balanced manner.

Little of topic, but personally I don't see any difference if I say I don't like the BMW 7 series and everybody that buys one needs his/her head examined, the Jaguar F-type is the best thing since slice bread and owners should be credited for their exquisite taste in car or calling somebody a hero or a fool. It is just opinion and it just emphasized the feelings of whoever post such messages. If anything it says something about the person venting his/her opinion.

This forum is 98% void of facts. That is a considered opinion and not a fact of course. Also, it doesn't make this forum better or worse perse, because just about all forums are like that. As I have stated before, facts are extremely boring and those of us who like to use facts, in practice tend to interpret the fact to suit their opinion. This is of course just my opinion, but I will say this, never ever think I will give you any facts. Everything is say or write is opinion and that is a fact!?

Personally I have never understood why anybody on a public, largely anonymous forum, (just about everybody here uses an alias) could feel offended in the first place. If you don't even want to be known by your own name, how can you take offense to something some anonomous joker says, it is just somebody giving his/her opinion in a enthusiastic way?

I said

Mr Bhargava is deflecting the discussion by pointing towards others that need to take action. That is easy and cheap. He fails to take responsibility for his own area of direct control, making (safer) cars. That, in my opinion, makes him not only a mediocre business leader, but also a pathetic human being.

That is not a fact, just an opinion. It should not need moderation, but it can and should be challenged by those who see it differently or just want to understand why I feel this way.

This forum and its mods pride itself on having proper articulated language. And I applaud that policy. So lets make sure we understand the meaning of calling somebody a fool. Just google the definition of fool, a few examples:

One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding
a person who lacks good sense or judgment

I call Mr Bhargava pathetic because I get the impression he lacks good sense of judgment and is deficient in understanding, what I believe, should be his own responsibility.

Pick your choice of words, look them up on line in the Webster; it's still down to individual personal opinions.

Some are more articulate then others, but there is no difference between calling somebody a fool and saying that "your considered opinion is that given all what was said, hearing the various pro and contra arguments one believes that here we have a case of potentially somebody who would benefit from a more balanced way of forming his/her judgement.

Lets just call a spade a bloody shovel, shall we?

Jeroen

[noopster]

@Jeroen I agree with the sentiment but just to clarify I never called RC Bhargava a fool. Indeed it would be foolish of me to do that given what he has contributed to the industry. My reference was to that anonymous blogger who was also mentioned in the opening post.

Indeed Bhargava's comments are so dangerous primarily because he is who he is. There's going to be a whole lot of people out there going, "See? As long as we drive safe and follow the rules we don't need these fancy safety devices. Maruti chief says so...good enough for me!"

[Dr.Abhi]

going the way the India made swift has performed in crash test, an intelligent guess would be maruti's latest launch Ciaz will perform no better as it has no substantial extra weight for that extra 700 mm length or so. so much for the latest sedan from our reputed car maker.
another point proved is Ford Figo is the most safe, most vfm provides most space in its segment.

[The Observer]

Originally Posted by gthang

So I take it you have immediately stopped driving your car, and are in the process of buying a new, safer car.

It should have ABS, for sure. ABS + EBD? Ventilated discs?

Airbags? How can one drive without them? 1 or 2? Curtain bags? Knee bags? Hope the backseat passengers remember to buckle up.

Structurally sound. Roll cage, perhaps?

You're right. It is paranoia. Hope it doesn't keep you away from driving altogether.

Cheers

Nope have not stopped driving , so still living with the risk.

Well yes all of this would be great, why not ??( except a roll cage perhaps) because here in India all these are pegged as a luxury !

Nope, cant stop driving altogether, but every time i am on the road the "paranoia" does kick in, definitely the probability of taking it on long drives has decreased quite well - atleast in my case.

[StarrySky]

I'm sure that the Maruti chairman is fully aware of the benefits of the safety features. I also guess he's not worried about maybe a few hundred lost sales due to base variants of Maruti's cars costing few thousand rupees more. His real problem is probably that if the regulations on crash testing (BNVSAP, isn't it) and airbags are fully implemented by Oct 2017, then he is looking at potentially losing 30% of his sales (Alto, Omni, Eeco), unless he puts some serious money into upgrading them or finding replacements. I think his comments need to be seen in this context.

I guess the BNVSAP testing is supposed to be voluntary, but if other manufacturers get their cars testing and advertise the ratings, Maruti will be forced to do so too.

[Thad E Ginathom]

There was a Mr Ratner, in UK, who had a large chain of jeweller's shops. One day, he happened to say how successful the company had been through selling cheap rubbish (or words to that effect) and sales immediately plummeted. They never recovered, and it wasn't long before the once ubiquitous Ratner's could not be found on any British high street.

Mr Bhargava should be more careful what he says.

[MHG]

Originally Posted by baahubali

What Mr. Bhargava said is right from the Indian perspective. The NCAP is rating the Indian cars as per European standards. However, all the cars mentioned here are perfectly at par the standards required by Indian Government Regulations.

The kind of safety norms everybody is talking about will be implemented in India only in 2017. The revised crash test norms will be effective sometime in 2017.

Hope all understand my point here.

Wrong. NCAP has nothing to do with "european standards". It is voluntary (the european standards themselves are quite below what Euro NCAP asks for which is why you see 3* and 4* vehicles sell in the market). It is just a set of things a majority of customers demand from manufacturers and thus has lobbying power.

If we in Team-BHP demand features, and our voices are echoed by several other Indians, this equals to a demand by customers in India for safety.

We only need one manufacturer to take the bold step and release a structurally ultra stable and well equiped vehicle in India and then demonstrate (perhaps via aggressive advertisements) how a high speed crash between their car and a Maruti on a highway decimates the Maruti while it leaves their car vastly intact. Such aggressive action is sure to get noticed by customers and a chain reaction will occur, where safety gets plenty of media coverage and public opinion will force other manufacturers to act.

Oh and before anyone else starts talking about "Indian conditions" being different, we need safer cars than Europeans or North Americans - much safer cars, preferably those built like a battle tank to withstand as many crashes as possible. The first world countries have a good training and testing regime before issuing a driver's license, much higher road sense and a powerful legal system which keeps retards and murders out of roads to a large extent. We in India have pappus getting driving license for a few thousand rupees without ever driving a car, helmetless buffoons riding loud Honda Dios with free flow exhausts competing with other helmetless buffoons riding smokey 2-stroke bikes trying to do stunts and pop wheelies in public roads, idiots trying to overtake in impossible scenarios on ultra narrow roads, non-existent lane discipline and morons who make it their life's duty to crash into other people. 64 kilometers per hour is peanuts in India - cities have faster traffic (although it is illegal). I have seen crashes at 80 kilometers per hour in Hyderabad. We need all the help we can get to survive the ordeal of Indian roads because most of the time, it is not even our fault.

Volkswagen / Fiat / Tata / Ford - are you guys listening ?


PS: Excuse the strong language. I really hate rogue drivers/riders.

[wilful]

Originally Posted by MHG

If we in Team-BHP demand features, and our voices are echoed by several other Indians, this equals to a demand by customers in India for safety.

We only need one manufacturer to take the bold step and release a structurally ultra stable and well equiped vehicle in India and then demonstrate (perhaps via aggressive advertisements) how a high speed crash between their car and a Maruti on a highway decimates the Maruti while it leaves their car vastly intact. Such aggressive action is sure to get noticed by customers and a chain reaction will occur, where safety gets plenty of media coverage and public opinion will force other manufacturers to act.

I have always felt the exactly the same. It requires this kind of concerted effort by a manufacturer to get the attention of the public. And once it catches on, it will forces several others to follow suit.

[baahubali]

Originally Posted by MHG

Wrong. NCAP has nothing to do with "european standards". It is voluntary (the european standards themselves are quite below what Euro NCAP asks for which is why you see 3* and 4* vehicles sell in the market). It is just a set of things a majority of customers demand from manufacturers and thus has lobbying power.

If we in Team-BHP demand features, and our voices are echoed by several other Indians, this equals to a demand by customers in India for safety.

We only need one manufacturer to take the bold step and release a structurally ultra stable and well equiped vehicle in India and then demonstrate (perhaps via aggressive advertisements) how a high speed crash between their car and a Maruti on a highway decimates the Maruti while it leaves their car vastly intact. Such aggressive action is sure to get noticed by customers and a chain reaction will occur, where safety gets plenty of media coverage and public opinion will force other manufacturers to act.
.

I understand your emotions MHG. But let us all understand at the end of the day its a profit making business for the companies, and they do so within the Government requirements of floating a car on road in India. You are missing the point here, as I said, all the cars mentioned here are perfectly at par with the standards required by the government. All the cars before going on road are tested by ARAI, the relevant authority as required by Government.

[gthang]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Lets just call a spade a bloody shovel, shall we?

Jeroen

Help me understand this.

If we know the meaning of the "adjective", and if used in the right context, what is commonly known as "Name Calling", can be allowed?

So, we are hoping that using demeaning adjectives against a person will make that person realize his folly and correct his ways?

Or, are we using the freedom that this forum allows us to express our contempt against a person and his policies by using names?

Either way, I would like to submit that I am NOT in favor of "Calling Names", is in bad taste and strongly believe that is not the culture to encourage.

I realize now that this thread is dedicated solely to highlight Mr. Bhargava's folly in speaking up. And the discussion is limited to how we can ridicule him personally and in the process hope that Maruti changes it's policies.

If the scope of the discussion could be extended a little bit, one could discuss WHAT he actually said, and also Maruti relative to other companies.

But as I have discovered repeatedly recently, that is not allowed.

I sincerely wish this same zeal against Mr. Bhargava would be shown against some other "Scions of Industry", who unlike Mr. Bhargava, a professional answerable to a board, have greater control of their company's policies.

But saying that might put me beyond the scope of this discussion.

Cheers

[apurvapg]

Guys please see the PDF I have attached. Its a correspondence between me and MASS after an accident in which the airbags of the Swift ZDi did not deploy.