[tbppjpr]

Originally Posted by Rev_That_V8

It is competition and Ford's decision to make an entry price at 6+ lakhs. It's also the conscious decision of the buyer to get a safer trim option. If no one bought the less safe trim it wouldn't be there on charts.

I think the point is lost here by majority of folks, basic thing is structural rigidity of a car which is the most serious concern with the cars sold in India. Whenever there is talk about safety, majority of people end up emphasizing on secondary safety features like airbags, EBD etc and end up neglecting the structural integrity of the vehicles which is the the most important factor.

Ford had to add 300+ new parts in Ecosport before launching it in Europe where 150+ new parts were added in the structure alone, does that say anything? Having more number of airbags or zero airbags doesn't matter when structure itself is compromised.

VW's story is different, Polo's structure atleast fared similar like European Polo. Adding more safety equipments and features in such good structure will definitely be more beneficial but not in something like Datsun Go or i10 Grand which collapse like paper made models during impact.

Originally Posted by whencut86

Puntos, Lineas, Fiestas are all sold globally in few countries and the kerb weight is the same everywhere. But it is not the case with Maruti, Hyndai and Honda. The Malaysian version of City has bigger alloys and tires abd increased kerb wieght. The Chinese version of Creta (ix25) has more kerb wieght. The Creta's kerb weight is never made official in brochures or sites. One member i this forum who bought the top end manually checked it and found that the weight is slightly above 1300 kgs. Heck even the diesel punto/avventura weights around 1200 kgs. Hatchaback to SUV weight comparison. The duster weighs 1280 kgs, Honda City wiehgs 1100 kgs. This gives an indication of structural strength. Puntos and Lineas have their shell intact in a high speed crash. Even Tata Zest/Bolt are stronger compared to the rest.

Is this how you asses which car is safer and which one is not? I am sorry to disappoint you but if you are doing so then you are doing a mistake my friend.

Manufacturers use combination of lightweight materials in modern era like high strength steel, aluminium, magnesium and even carbon fibre to keep weight of the vehicle under control which helps it in performing at maximum possible efficiency. But these materials are expensive compared to lower grade materials which are heavier in weight but not rigid enough.

Coming onto your point of difference in kerb weight in different countries, Indian Swift (diesel 75 bhp) weighs 1060 kg according to official website whereas 90bhp European Swift with much more equipments weighs just 1030 kg. According to your theory Indian Swift should be much safer compared to European one but when crash tested, results are opposite. Indian Swift structure starts collapsing around A pillar and roof area whereas European Swift remains stable.

Euro Swift:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLseyuEvWsc

Indian Swift:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSytG_njse0

Size of the car is another misconception in India where most people believe bigger means better and safer. Example is the sweet little car named 'Smart' which weighs just 885 KG and doesn't have luxury of adding longer crumple zone area due to tinny size but crash test results are very impressive:

http://www.euroncap.com/en/results/smart/fortwo/7894

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v708z67ALww

Here is big daddy Mahindra Scorpio, which is very popular vehicle in India:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLmjVO3mRxE

The Polo crash test gives and indication that the shell is strong.

Yeah, but then its only Polo, why are you trying to put 'untested' Fords and Fiats also in the row of safer cars along side Polo when crash test results of only Polo are known? I have seen horribly crushed Fords and Fiats also during road accidents, even you can find some horrible pictures on Team-BHP also so I won't believe on the hearsay declarations until I myself see some crash results of 'Indian' Ford and Fiat models. The way shocking results are coming everyday, it has become very risky to make untested cars our favourite. Yeah, Figo impressed me when I first seen the results and I would pick it along with Polo over other untested cars but not going to put my money on Fiats and other Fords like Ecosport, Fiesta etc until I see the crash test results and ratings.

But the problem with Maruti, Hyundai and Honda is the shell. It collapses causing danger to occupants.

Which Honda are you talking about? Honda City score pretty impressive score, even better than VW Vento:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1riYq5FqBcU

Not against any manufacturer but them giving us a weaker body shell is plain cheating.

Thats the single alone point. You didn't put any proper example to back the point but I have helped you by putting example of Swift. Indian Swift has got all the structural components but the problems seems to be use of lower grade material which isn't capable of sustaining the impact.

Agreed our people are herd minded. Very few give importance to safety. But things have to change drastically. Airbags are no use if body shell is weaker.

Agree, your post itself proves it by attracting so much of 'Thanks' despite of not having any credential statistics or data to support most of your points.

[kiku007]

Interesting read, http://jalopnik.com/this-is-volvos-b...its-1668747230

Vehicle Safety measures in India are about half a century old than developed nations I guess.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Interesting read, http://jalopnik.com/this-is-volvos-b...its-1668747230

Vehicle Safety measures in India are about half a century old than developed nations I guess.

Also shows that the manufacturer concerns in European markets remain the same! Safety doesn't sell and while that remains Volvo's USP- it is struggling to market and sell their products as compared to some other Germans which are more premium.

As alleged by the article- most manufacturers only try to pass the NCAP tests and not more.

[Lobogris]

One important factor to consider is that all companies across the globe try to maximise profit and will provide the bare minimum needed to comply with existing regulations. There is no doubt that all manufacturers should provide 'safe' cars. How do we define 'safe'? Crash tests conducted at just 10 kmph beyond the 64 kmph mark showed that even cars with a 5 star rating failed to cope with the extra stress of a higher speed collision. So a test conducted at 80 kmph would find that all cars in the world are 'unsafe'. Similarly we can raise the bar to rear crash, side impact, frontal offset, against a heavier vehicle, even higher speed and so forth. Can we not make the argument that companies in Europe or the US should engineer their car to be safe for a collision at 100 kmph as that is the normal highway speed there? The fact remains that most of time the companies would only comply with stricter standards if they are mandated by law. Hence the onus is on the government to obligate minimum standards. I am sad to say that even the baisc minimum of airbags and crash tests has been now delayed to 2017 and may be further postponed. Even then it would only apply to new models released after that date and not to existing models. Hence a Maruti DZire or a Hyundai i20 can still be sold without adherence to the new standards even after 2017.

Let me provide some other examples to illustrate the need for regulation. Take a look at multinationals operating in USA and Europe. The same company provides 6 to 8 weeks of paid holidays in Europe and none in the US as it is forced to do so by European laws. It can provide a year of paid maternity leave for both parents in one nation but just a few weeks of unpaid one in another. Is it not unethical or wrong on its part to provide a benefit in one country and not in the other? Take a look at a building contractor. How safe should a 4 story building be constructed? It can be very basic that falls in an intensity 4 earthquake or it can be built to withstand up to scale 8 but at a higher cost. Unless there is a strictly enforced building code, the builders would simply make the building look good but would skimp on proper foundation, pillars, reinforcements and so on.

This illustrates that it is naive to depend on the good conscience of a manufacturer. Unless forced by strict regulation, most companies try to maximise profit by selling the cheapest plausible products marketed as state of art. The same is true of the auto industry. They sell better products in the more developed nations but dump cheaper ones in Latin America and parts of Asia and Africa where there is no regulation to protect the consumer. Complete safety is not possible as the costs involved would be prohibitive. However we urgently need to start in this direction in India. I would welcome at least a phased implementation of crash tests starting next year at the European standard of 48 kmph with 2 airbags and ABS being mandatory followed by side airbags being mandatory along with ESP and a higher speed crash test in say 3 more years.

Originally Posted by graaja

This is not even a head vs. heart problem. It is a head vs. head issue.

One side of the head tells me: for in city use, it is ok not to have ABS and passenger airbag. So go ahead with the Celerio.

The other side tells me: on rare occasions, there may be a requirement for the car to be used in the highways. Though the car may be limited to city driving today, two years down the line, the requirements may evolve and the car may be put to longer rides. Considering these situations, Celerio does not look as a good choice.

Now I am confused and am having sleepless nights. Need inputs from fellow TBHPians to bail me out of this situation. What would you do in this situation? Would you go with Celerio, or upgrade to Polo? Please let me know your thoughts.

.[/b]

While I would concede that city driving is generally safer and slower than highway driving, the fact remains that most cities have roads where one can travel at 60 to 80 km per hour. It can be even faster if one jumps on some highway from time to time. Keep in mind that the crash test referred to in this thread was conducted at 64 kmph. If you are certain that the car will never cross say 50 kmph inside the city then your logic is correct. For me ABS and airbags are almost like brakes. They are a standard requirement in most advanced nations and I refuse to value my life lower just because I am driving in India. In fact with our lack of traffic discipline, we have a much greater need for safer vehicles.

One option you could consider is a gently used vehicle. Currently you can get a 2010 Civic or Jetta for around 3-4 lakhs with low mileage. These cars are much better built and have 2 or 6 airbags along with ABS. In addition the overall driving experience would be greatly enhanced.

[whencut86]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

Is this how you asses which car is safer and which one is not? I am sorry to disappoint you but if you are doing so then you are doing a mistake my friend.

Manufacturers use combination of lightweight materials in modern era like high strength steel, aluminium, magnesium and even carbon fibre to keep weight of the vehicle under control which helps it in performing at maximum possible efficiency. But these materials are expensive compared to lower grade materials which are heavier in weight but not rigid enough.

Coming onto your point of difference in kerb weight in different countries, Indian Swift (diesel 75 bhp) weighs 1060 kg according to official website whereas 90bhp European Swift with much more equipments weighs just 1030 kg. According to your theory Indian Swift should be much safer compared to European one but when crash tested, results are opposite. Indian Swift structure starts collapsing around A pillar and roof area whereas European Swift remains stable.

Yeah, but then its only Polo, why are you trying to put 'untested' Fords and Fiats also in the row of safer cars along side Polo when crash test results of only Polo are known? I have seen horribly crushed Fords and Fiats also during road accidents, even you can find some horrible pictures on Team-BHP also so I won't believe on the hearsay declarations until I myself see some crash results of 'Indian' Ford and Fiat models. The way shocking results are coming everyday, it has become very risky to make untested cars our favourite. Yeah, Figo impressed me when I first seen the results and I would pick it along with Polo over other untested cars but not going to put my money on Fiats and other Fords like Ecosport, Fiesta etc until I see the crash test results and ratings.

Which Honda are you talking about? Honda City score pretty impressive score, even better than VW Vento:

Thats the single alone point. You didn't put any proper example to back the point but I have helped you by putting example of Swift. Indian Swift has got all the structural components but the problems seems to be use of lower grade material which isn't capable of sustaining the impact.

Agree, your post itself proves it by attracting so much of 'Thanks' despite of not having any credential statistics or data to support most of your points.

Agree that assessing a car's safety solely based on weight is pointless but this is the Indian market we are talking about. I know how the same manufacturers abroad employ use of carbon, aluminum and high tensile steel to keep the weight less. But use of carbon, high strength and less weight materials increase the cost drastically which is why they are not being done in our market since we are too price sensitive. We also know of carbon being used widely in Ferraris and Lamborginis and we know what price those cars are. That is why I brought in the weight factor. No matter what advancement in technology or modern techniques manufacturers employ, weight of a car is also one of the factors atleast in our market.

http://auto.ndtv.com/news/airbags-di...-dealer-701796

Honda City Air Bags Fail:
http://www.oncars.in/car-news/honda-...car-buyer/7742



Please have a look at the crash bar in the new Honda City, the one you claimed had a 5 star rating. I agree that Honda City has received 5 stars in the ASEAN NCAP but we do not know if the same structural integrity makes it to the Indian market, so lets spare that topic here. The ASEAN NCAP tested Malaysian version of the Honda City. To know what contributed to City's 5 stars please read further (borrowed from Honda City niggles thread)

Discrimination w.r.t features compared to international variant.

Malaysian variant of the City gets:

• 5 year unlimited kilometers standard warranty. (As against our 2 years 40k kms).
• 185 section 16' tyres on top variant (Our 175 section tyres were main source of complaint for owners since many dealers claim warranty loss once upgraded).
• 16' alloys with appealing design. (Indian variant had rather bland alloys). - Forget Design but bigger alloys with wide tyres enhance road grip
• 6 airbags (We get 2)
• Safety features like Vehicle Stability Assist, Brake Assist, Hill Start Assist etc.

The Indian version of Honda City was never tested for crash safety and this 5 star rating will not apply to Indian version of the car since 6 airbags, Hill start assist and other features. VSA comes only in the top end in Indian City.

In the above news in which Honda City's airbags didn't deploy, the reply the customer got from Honda was that the car didn't crash properly for the sensor to activate the airbags deployment. But if you see the pic it is a big impact on the front side and air bags should have deployed. Also see the crash bar in the city. Please compare it with the Punto's crash bar in the image I have posted below. See the difference for yourself.

Seen horribly crushed Fiats in service centres and the body shell was intact. The image below gives the crash bar of the Punto. The Linea's crash bar is slightly wider than this. Punto has a 5 star safety rating in Euro NCAP even though it was tested way back in 2005. Please go through crashes in Punto and Linea in this forum and other forums and judge the safety of these cars based on that. There is a Defence guy's Linea which survived a 30 feet fall and I am not making this up. There is video on this in Fiat's FB page. I have not seen a better crash/impact bar like this one on any other Indian cars. Basing my posts based on credible info and this is upto you to agree/disagree. Fiat as their motto suggests is really built like a tank.
PS: I am not a Fiat fanboy and currently own a Honda Brio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I7HafYom5Q

Some news articles about Fiat crashes:

Punto crash in UK:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-services.html

Below are pics of Linea accidents from this very forum.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...pics-1022.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...-pics-206.html

I hope all the above info seems credible enough to you. The thanks I received also is not because people have a herd mentality but there are many people in this forum who agree on the safety aspects of a Fiat car. Perhaps you are not aware of the same.

[tbppjpr]

Originally Posted by whencut86

Please have a look at the crash bar in the new Honda City

Also see the crash bar in the city. Please compare it with the Punto's crash bar in the image I have posted below. See the difference for yourself.

The image below gives the crash bar of the Punto. The Linea's crash bar is slightly wider than this.

Have been seeing this sole image circulating since years. Do you even know whats the purpose of having this bar? Do you really believe this crash bar (technically known as dog guard bar) saves lives? If so then I have very little to argue on that point.

Punto has a 5 star safety rating in Euro NCAP even though it was tested way back in 2005.

Doesn't matter to Indian buyers, as you also said, we are talking in Indian context so crash results of Indian made models will matter to us which are unknown in case of Fiats you are defending.

If NCAP is sole criteria then majority of models sold in India score 5 stars but when Indian made variants are tested, they fail.

Also please note the crash test norms keep getting stricter day by day and I have seen the older models scoring 5 stars loose out substantial score when tested in newer norms. So the credibility of 2005 crash test results, that too of a foreign model holds nil value for Indian buyers looking for safer car. What matters to us is the crash test results of currently sold models in India because new customer can make choice from only currently available models.

http://www.examiner.com/article/many...ome-fall-short

Please go through crashes in Punto and Linea in this forum and other forums and judge the safety of these cars based on that. There is a Defence guy's Linea which survived a 30 feet fall and I am not making this up. There is video on this in Fiat's FB page. I have not seen a better crash/impact bar like this one on any other Indian cars. Basing my posts based on credible info and this is upto you to agree/disagree. Fiat as their motto suggests is really built like a tank.

Thats all just falls in category of hearsay. Only way to determine how Fiats or any other car is different than many others is to test them in same given conditions. Thats why crash test facilities or fuel efficiently test standards exist. One can not judge a vehicle's fate just by seeing pictures of accidents because no one knows how the impact happened, what was angle and force of impact was or so.

I hope all the above info seems credible enough to you.

Hope I have conveyed my points more clearly on the disagreement.

[nkrishnap]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

Thats all just falls in category of hearsay. Only way to determine how Fiats or any other car is different than many others is to test them in same given conditions. Thats why crash test facilities or fuel efficiently test standards exist. One can not judge a vehicle's fate just by seeing pictures of accidents because no one knows how the impact happened, what was angle and force of impact was or so.


Hope I have conveyed my points more clearly on the disagreement.

Completely agree that many of the Indian made models which exist internationally is not crash tested and this includes the ones on sale from Fiat in India.

However, a slightly disagree about completely ignoring the structural integrity can be assessed on through crash tests. However, the total rating and points of individual assessment needs a crash test surely.

I have personally seen a couple of known people who have had really bad crashed in their punto. The Punto was certainly totalled and written off just due the sheer repair cost. In each of these cases, the cabin was pretty much intact. Out of the two Puntos, one is active version (no abs or airbags) and the other is dynamic (only abs and no airbags). Both the cases were head on collision and they escaped out with minor injuries. I am in no way justifying or blindly supporting Fiat for the build quality.

Only trying to convey very few manufacturers provide a good stable structure and provide active and passive safety features even though the law in India is not that demanding. Thumbs up to these manufactures (even if they are providing it unwillingly, unwillingly because re-engineering it to remove material which reinforces the structure may be working out costlier).

[GTO]

Mod Note: This isn't a 'What Car' thread. Please avoid off-topic posts.

[Mevtec]

i10 Grand’s crash test report is not a surprise when you consider how Hyundai and Kia(owned by Hyundai) are performing in international crash tests. Eg:Small overlap frontal crash tests by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMxX...ature=youtu.be

In the small overlap frontal test, a vehicle travels at 40 mph toward a 5-foot-tall rigid barrier. To provide effective protection in small overlap crashes, the safety cage needs to resist crash forces that aren't tempered by crush-zone structures. I was shocked to see the reports of some cars we would consider safe.

Hyundai Elantra – Acceptable (Note 2.35,structure and 2.52,note the impact to head)
Kia soul and Kia Forte – Poor (Worried about the hapless souls who buy this car)

I hope India will soon have a good crash facility which conducts tests honestly. The crash test data has converted me to an ex-ix25 fan.

More details in http://www.iihs.org/iihs.

[keeprevving]

In a quest to achieve higher ARAI mileage figures most manufacturers are compromising on essential aspects. Thin sheet metal, reduction of weight by use of overuse of plastic parts, under-rated tires, etc. These wont stop until we have a legitimate crash test facility in India.

[Jr Godzilla]

It is easy to educate the illeterate on any issue in this case safety of a car i.e. priority to structure over bells and whistles

but will be a challenge and also a useless debate with the literate.

Common people look for the below features when buying:
1) Fuel efficiency?
2) Resale Value
3) Touch screen?
4) AC for the rear seat?



cheers