[Theyota]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

I would not be so quick to appreciate them.

For me, this is just an effort to pick an advantage over the competition and use it for marketing.
Remember Swift? Without the airbags, it scored "0", but with the airbags added, it scored 3 stars.

Here Toyota smartly adds the Airbags and then offers the car for evaluation and scores 4 stars. How many did they sell without the airbags?
Rather how much would it score without airbags? Maybe slightly better than the swift, maybe around 1 star.

Since they are adamant on not offering better interiors, they resort to these tactics.

Vinit, you are at the risk of cheating yourself if you think it is a tactic. It takes a lot of engineering from the begining to build a small car to get 4 star safety ratings. It cannot be just added as a feature for a marketing gimmick in the life cycle of a product. 4 star safety rating is a real and tangible differentiator. It also costs them a lot of money.

The reason they are not upgrading interiors of the car is because it is economically not justifiable considering the volumes. It is a chicken and egg story. They are not idiots. They are the number 1 car producer in the world and they didn't earn it by marketing gimmicks. They earned it because they provide the most reliable cars at competitive prices. They have never been known for good marketing, good looks or for that matter good after - sales - service.

[DevilsCry]

Originally Posted by prakhar1998

So this makes it the VW Polo, the Figo and the Etios that most definitiely are safe.

To be precise, old Figo is safe. New Figo is untested. I've faith that new Figo is safe but let's not call it safe yet without crash test proof.

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

Remember Swift? Without the airbags, it scored "0", but with the airbags added, it scored 3 stars.

Which article claims so? Global NCAP has called Swift's structure unsafe. Fitting airbags will still result in 0 star rating.

[vinit.merchant]

Originally Posted by Theyota

Vinit, you are at the risk of cheating yourself if you think it is a tactic. It takes a lot of engineering from the begining to build a small car to get 4 star safety ratings. It cannot be just added as a feature for a marketing gimmick in the life cycle of a product. 4 star safety rating is a real and tangible differentiator. It also costs them a lot of money.

The reason they are not upgrading interiors of the car is because it is economically not justifiable considering the volumes. It is a chicken and egg story. They are not idiots. They are the number 1 car producer in the world and they didn't earn it by marketing gimmicks. They earned it because they provide the most reliable cars at competitive prices. They have never been known for good marketing, good looks or for that matter good after - sales - service.

4 stars "with" Airbags is my point. For years it was not a standard equipment in their cars. For the purpose of getting the car tested they added the airbags. Within couple of hours of the result getting declared, they started advertising it - they had it ready.

Without the airbags, if it would have got 0 or 1 star, what would you have said?
Rather why did they not offer their base variant cars as they were being sold in India for so long, without adding the airbags?

Of course I am aware they are not idiots. They are here to earn profits, and not for charity, and that surely explains why they volunteered to offer Etios (their car selling lowest volumes) for the test, after adding airbags to it.
They did not offer India made Innova for the test or any other car selling in good numbers, did they?

I am sure I am not cheating myself.

Originally Posted by DevilsCry

Which article claims so? Global NCAP has called Swift's structure unsafe. Fitting airbags will still result in 0 star rating.

I am pretty sure I read about the swift somewhere on this forum but lets forget swift. I wont be able to find it right now.
Go back to the first post and you will find Polo getting 0 stars without airbags and 4 stars with airbags. That is the difference of adding airbags.
EDIT: Heres the link for the India made Swift re-tested for Latin American market with airbags getting 3 stars
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3570563

I made my point pretty clear. Toyota does make some very very reliable cars and I do not contest that. This is not bashing Toyota, just laying down facts as they appear to me. Should someone feel Toyota is a No. 1 manufacturer in the world and my opinion does not do justice to the brand, I am not going to argue.

[jetti]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

4 stars "with" Airbags is my point. For years it was not a standard equipment in their cars. For the purpose of getting the car tested they added the airbags. Within couple of hours of the result getting declared, they started advertising it - they had it ready.

Without the airbags, if it would have got 0 or 1 star, what would you have said?
Rather why did they not offer their base variant cars as they were being sold in India for so long, without adding the airbags?

I think it is a question to GNCAP why they did not test Etios when they tested Alto, i10, Polo and Nano.
By the way, without airbags, GNCAP gives 0, irrespective of whether the car structure is stable or not. So, Polo without airbags gets 0, Datsun Go gets 0. Doesn't mean both are equal. To see the difference, just see the videos and Adult Occupant Protection diagrams in the detailed report. I suggest you read the complete reports of these cars at these links:
http://www.globalncap.org/wp-content...yota-Etios.pdf
http://www.globalncap.org/wp-content..._result_v2.pdf
Adding airbags will work only if the body structure is stable and there are no intrusions into the cabin to injure the passengers. You can see the difference in the injuries for with and without airbags for Polo in this report which has stable body structure, still the airbags make a lot of difference.

I am pretty sure I read about the swift somewhere on this forum but lets forget swift. I wont be able to find it right now.
Go back to the first post and you will find Polo getting 0 stars without airbags and 4 stars with airbags. That is the difference of adding airbags.

EDIT: Heres the link for the India made Swift re-tested for Latin American market with airbags getting 3 stars
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3570563

Swift with Airbags gets only 3 stars because that is the assessment of injuries in the crash test dummies. See how the A pillar deforms under the impact.

I made my point pretty clear. Toyota does make some very very reliable cars and I do not contest that. This is not bashing Toyota, just laying down facts as they appear to me. Should someone feel Toyota is a No. 1 manufacturer in the world and my opinion does not do justice to the brand, I am not going to argue.

This thread is not about if they are number 1 or not, reliable or not. If someone gives those reasons to justify safety I would totally disagree. But Etios has got 4 stars and that is a fact.

Since they are adamant on not offering better interiors, they resort to these tactics.

I totally agree with you on this point. But then every manufacturer has to highlight the achievements and not failures

[DevilsCry]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

Heres the link for the India made Swift re-tested for Latin American market with airbags getting 3 stars
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3570563

Originally Posted by jetti

Swift with Airbags gets only 3 stars because that is the assessment of injuries in the crash test dummies.

Let's not call Indian Swift with two airbags safe. The Swift in topic was tested by Latin NCAP for Latin American market. Indian Swift remains an unsafe car irrespective of airbags as per Global NCAP report (reason cited: structure unsafe).

[heavenlybull]

Interesting points in the last few posts. I would ignore addition of airbags and seatbelt pretensioners for a moment to achieve a higher crash score.

But I am impressed that the car's basic shell held very well in the crash. There is no damage at all to the car's structure starting A pillar, which is great. Wonder if Toyota added any reinforcements to the car's front structure recently, or maybe the car was this good structurally from the start.

Toyota must have been pretty confident of the crash scores beforehand, as they volunteered for the test, which is unusual. Maybe they had already done an internal crash test before asking NCAP to test. Whatever be the case, the upcoming Indian crash tests sure are waking up car manufacturers.

[Debajyoti]

Forgive me if I am asking a stupid question. Polo received zero stars at first but then four stars after adding just 2 airbags? Or Volkswagen changed other aspects of the car? Wish Toyota now gives the Etios twins a makeover like they did with the old and new Corolla Altis.

[JonSnow]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

For me, this is just an effort to pick an advantage over the competition and use it for marketing.

I don't understand why that is a bad thing.

Since they are adamant on not offering better interiors, they resort to these tactics.

Would you rather have a car that compromises on interior quality or on safety? Sure, it would be great to have safety as well as nice interiors, but if I have to compromise on one aspect to cut costs, I would gladly give up interiors rather than safety. I would be very happy if all manufacturers adopted the "tactic" of prioritising safety over premium look and feel. Manufacturers like Hyundai take the opposite approach of sacrificing safety to provide better interiors, since customers can see interiors but cannot gauge the structural integrity, and that is a far worse tactic.

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

4 stars "with" Airbags is my point. For years it was not a standard equipment in their cars. For the purpose of getting the car tested they added the airbags. Within couple of hours of the result getting declared, they started advertising it - they had it ready.

Without the airbags, if it would have got 0 or 1 star, what would you have said?
Rather why did they not offer their base variant cars as they were being sold in India for so long, without adding the airbags?

Even when airbags were not standard , they were available at least as an option even on the lower end models of Etios/Liva. So we didn't have to spend on the top end model with all the unnecessary gadgets just to get airbags, which was the case with almost all other cars in the segment.

Go back to the first post and you will find Polo getting 0 stars without airbags and 4 stars with airbags. That is the difference of adding airbags.

Airbags alone didn't get 4 stars. Airbags is a minimum requirement for Global NCAP to award any stars. It is the passing criteria. But the rating of 4 stars means they have a good structure as well. Swift had an inferior structure and scored only 3 in the Laitn NCAP. The Datsun Go would not have scored more than a single star.

The appreciation for Toyota is coming from the fact that they provided a car with good structure in India, unlike Maruti, which sells the Swift with good structure in Europe but compromised in India to cut costs.

Originally Posted by Debajyoti

Forgive me if I am asking a stupid question. Polo received zero stars at first but then four stars after adding just 2 airbags? Or Volkswagen changed other aspects of the car? Wish Toyota now gives the Etios twins a makeover like they did with the old and new Corolla Altis.

They didn't change any other aspect. Global NCAP has a minimum requirement of airbags to pass the test, so it gives a zero if airbags are missing, irrespective of other aspects. If airbags are present, then the star rating is given based on the performance in the crash test.

[DevilsCry]

Originally Posted by Debajyoti

Polo received zero stars at first but then four stars after adding just 2 airbags? Or Volkswagen changed other aspects of the car?

Originally Posted by JonSnow

They didn't change any other aspect. Global NCAP has a minimum requirement of airbags to pass the test, so it gives a zero if airbags are missing, irrespective of other aspects. If airbags are present, then the star rating is given based on the performance in the crash test.

Didn't change any aspect: Correct. But I'm not sure if G-NCAP has minimum requirement of airbags to pass the test. If it was the case, why even conduct tests of cars without airbags? This G-NCAP pdf has explanation why Polo without airbags failed to pass the test.

"The protection offered to the driver head was poor due to the hard contact with the steering wheel and for this reason the star capping was applied."

This problem was solved by adding airbags.

---

From Global NCAP we seem to have the following results so far:

List of certified cars in India so far:
- VW Polo and its sisters
- Toyota Etios and its sisters
- Old Ford Figo

List of certified UNSAFE cars
- Suzuki Swift and Dzire
- Hyundai i10
- Hyundai Grand i10 and Xcent
- Suzuki Alto
- Tata Nano
- Datson Go

[JonSnow]

Originally Posted by DevilsCry

Didn't change any aspect: Correct. But I'm not sure if G-NCAP has minimum requirement of airbags to pass the test. If it was the case, why even conduct tests of cars without airbags? This G-NCAP pdf has explanation why Polo without airbags failed to pass the test.

"The protection offered to the driver head was poor due to the hard contact with the steering wheel and for this reason the star capping was applied."

This problem was solved by adding airbags.

Yes I guess I was wrong. However, at that speed head will collide with steering wheel, so absence of airbags will result in serious injuries. So pretty much any car will get a zero rating if they are missing airbags. But adding airbags alone will not guarantee a 4 or even 3 star rating. The structure also has to hold up.

[Vinodh_Gowda]

My O my, This just makes me start viewing the ETIOS in a completely different manner. Never thought they would be getting this sort of a safety rating. Kudos as well as apologies from my end to Toyota - Kudos for the achievement and apology for having the wrong perception on this car. But then I still hate the centrally placed console

[C300]

Kudos to Toyota. Never thought Etios would be scoring this high on safety. If Toyota can produce a safe car on a budget, wonder what's stopping our top two car makers to focus more on safe body shell?

[arun_josie]

Originally Posted by C300

Kudos to Toyota. Never thought Etios would be scoring this high on safety. If Toyota can produce a safe car on a budget, wonder what's stopping our top two car makers to focus more on safe body shell?

Good to hear about this award for Etios. But I don't think this will help its sale because a "Zero" rating to Swift/Dzire/Alto, didn't affect their sale at all.

Wonder why these tests are not done for all the cars sold in India. And what point in testing a car which is already in market for 5 years. These tests should be done before the launch of any new car, I feel.

[C300]

Originally Posted by arun_josie

Good to hear about this award for Etios. But I don't think this will help its sale because a "Zero" rating to Swift/Dzire/Alto, didn't affect their sale at all.

Wonder why these tests are not done for all the cars sold in India. And what point in testing a car which is already in market for 5 years. These tests should be done before the launch of any new car, I feel.

I agree Arun. If I remember, MSIL chairman said on record that safety is their last priority. TBH I was under misconception that Toyota is also from the same tribe, especially in India. Happy to be proved wrong.

I always advise my friends to buy MSIL share instead of their car

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

4 stars "with" Airbags is my point. For years it was not a standard equipment in their cars. For the purpose of getting the car tested they added the airbags. Within couple of hours of the result getting declared, they started advertising it - they had it ready.

Better late than never.

I think its finally a good move that both Toyota and VW (and even Maruti these days) started offering airbags on their cars starting from the base versions. This might be a reactive measure to escape from the GNCAP tests, but it sure is for the benefit of customers.

There are companies yet to implement this measure. Those should get the brickbats rather than the late comers like Toyota.