[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by carwatcher

I just wanted to check whether is it legal.

My understanding is it is a grey area but legal, order prohibits sale of liquor. Guests if they carry their own liquor can "consume"

[binand]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

My understanding is it is a grey area but legal, order prohibits sale of liquor. Guests if they carry their own liquor can "consume"

Don't think there is any category of liquor license that allows consumption without a corresponding sale clause (unless the place is also a hotel which rents out rooms and the consumption is inside the rooms).

Edit: Since this is a state subject, the rules would vary from state to state. Might be helpful to know which state this establishment is located in.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by sdp1975

Source

This is a very misleading news report because it doesn't address the enforcement issue. Did Bihar have decent/strict DUI enforcement prior to banning liquor?

If you move from a zero enforcement situation to liquor ban situation, you will obviously see a major decrease in DUI. Purely because of supply side control. That comes at the cost of destroying the bar/pub/tourism industry.

Kerala has seen massive dip in tourism, and subsequent decline in hospitality industry due to their liquor ban in 2014. Now combine that with the looming GST, which kicks the tax rates even higher, hospitality industry will simply die.

Bangalore has cracked down on DUI massively in the past few years via strict DUI enforcement. Number of people booked is steadily increasing thanks to enforcement. I'd like to see the data on DUI accidents in Bangalore over the past few years, that can tell the real story. Now pretty much every night party in Bangalore in my circle involve Uber/Ola or designated driver.

KA government has not taken any firm steps towards countering the liquor ban so far. Re-designation of NH/SH will come at a massive cost of losing the central funds to maintain the highways. It is clear that central government is firmly on the side of SC when it comes to the liquor ban, they have proved it by their silence.

Developed countries handle DUI entirely through enforcement, and never supply side. It is the mature thing to do. DUI is a crime, and should be handled by police.

Unfortunately, the law in our country is often made by people with little or no domain knowledge in the area. The recent comments from the Rajasthan high court judge about peacocks is a clear proof of that.

[binand]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Kerala has seen massive dip in tourism, and subsequent decline in hospitality industry due to their liquor ban in 2014. Now combine that with the looming GST, which kicks the tax rates even higher, hospitality industry will simply die.

Please explain where the dip is. I have tabulated the numbers from the link you have posted (which is from April 2016, a long time before the SC judgment), and added the figures for 2016 from here: https://www.keralatourism.org/touris...0623055022.pdf, which is the "official website of the Department of Tourism, Government of Kerala".

The first two columns are number of tourists, and the last two are Rs. Crores.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by binand

Please explain where the dip is. I have tabulated the numbers from the link you have posted

Those are overall numbers, the problem is visible only when you break it down. It is necessary to have domain knowledge to dig out the truth from statistics.

Let's look at this report by Department of Tourism, Govt. of Kerala.

Room occupancy took a dive since 2014.



Biggest factor affecting tourist arrival is new Excise policy.



MICE - Meetings, incentives, conferences and exhibitions





Suggestion by Hotels & Resorts



Suggestion by Tour Operators

[binand]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Those are overall numbers, the problem is visible only when you break it down.

The number of people visiting is increasing year on year, the average spend per tourist is increasing year on year, so where is the problem for the industry as a whole?

If a sub-group is having problems then either that problem is visible in the aggregate or some other sub-group is doing exceptionally well. Here we have a report that says hotels & resorts that are 3-star and above are adversely affected. I don't see it as a problem for Kerala tourism as a whole, because that is not seen in the aggregate data.

You also need to read this along with the fact that the homestay business is booming in Kerala. A HolidayIQ report I saw sometime back said homestays beat star hotels in terms of cost, quality and satisfaction.

So let us see a report on occupancy and all other metrics for homestays too, before concluding that tourism in Kerala is affected as a whole.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by binand

If a sub-group is having problems then either that problem is visible in the aggregate or some other sub-group is doing exceptionally well. Here we have a report that says hotels & resorts that are 3-star and above are adversely affected. I don't see it as a problem for Kerala tourism as a whole, because that is not seen in the aggregate data.

You don't see the problem because you don't understand the industry. You are looking at revenue numbers, and while not realizing that the industry stands on the foundation of liquor. Do your numbers tell you the CAPEX figures? That nice veg restaurant you eat at while staying at resort is mostly funded by the liquor revenue.

When somebody starts a fancy restaurant/resort/hotel, taking a big loan, most of their EMIs get paid through liquor revenue. Once their loans are paid off, they can probably survive just on non-liquor revenue. Just may be.

I know of a teetotaler beach resort which is extremely popular, it is hard to get a booking there. They mostly get foreign tourists who love the concept. But the resort has been continuously bleeding since 12+ years, and only open because the rich owner keeps throwing money at it from his other businesses.

[V-16]

Thanks Samurai for explaining the situation. Binand it is evident that while you are quoting figures which is from some Govt website, the fact remains different. The fact is the industry is bleeding in Kerala and all over, and the reason is Liquor. The finance minister of Kerala is also instrumental in increasing the GST from 18% to 28%. Classic leftist attitude and non understanding of the business and industry. That these guys have no understanding of the industry is another debate. I was with the council of GST interacting with them about how their high GST on hospitality will spell doom for the industry, the revenue to the Govt and their reply was completely bewildering. They have absolutely no understanding of what they are doing, probably because they never even thought of this industry. Let's see what happens now, but the fact remains that if this is the case, they will lose a lot of revenue and this will make the industry sick. The mention of the homestays is another impediment. People are misusing the format running hotels as homestays. USA has had strictures passed on AirbNB and so have many other countries, because they operate as direct competition to the industry without having to comply with any of the norms. Another area not understood by the Govt. They are security time bombs with no compliance as compared to hotels who invest zillions. As it is they are an accidents waiting to happen.

[sdp1975]

Originally Posted by Samurai

This is a very misleading news report because it doesn't address the enforcement issue. Did Bihar have decent/strict DUI enforcement prior to banning liquor?

I find nothing misleading in the report per se . All it says is that other factors remaining constant, enforcement included, reducing the availability of alcohol does reduce accidents and deaths.

Posts here have suggested that reducing the availability of liquor won't make any difference in accident figures . That doesn't sound rational given this data .

[binand]

Originally Posted by Samurai

That nice veg restaurant you eat at while staying at resort is mostly funded by the liquor revenue.

You keep saying that; but what I don't understand is why would anyone invest in a veg restaurant when there is no demand for it? The only plausible reason I can think of is that the veg restaurant somehow attracts a certain class of people to the resort; in which case the restaurant is a cost centre and they shouldn't be griping about it being loss-making. Otherwise, what is stopping the resort management from shutting it down?

Originally Posted by Samurai

I know of a teetotaler beach resort which is extremely popular, it is hard to get a booking there. They mostly get foreign tourists who love the concept. But the resort has been continuously bleeding since 12+ years, and only open because the rich owner keeps throwing money at it from his other businesses.

You mean, for 12 years this "hard to get a booking" resort (which we'll take as 90% occupancy) has been loss-making and the owner hasn't yet figured out how to change that? In 12 years, with 90% occupancy??? Either the owner has no clue, or this is a money laundering operation.

Originally Posted by V-16

Binand it is evident that while you are quoting figures which is from some Govt website, the fact remains different. The fact is the industry is bleeding in Kerala and all over, and the reason is Liquor.

First of all, I didn't quote any figures. I just put the figures quoted by Samurai into a spreadsheet, and pointed out that those figures don't show any "dip" as he claimed. Now, you say that "the industry is bleeding in Kerala", which these figures contradict (increasing number of tourists, increasing spend per tourist, increasing forex earnings etc.). So if you happen to have figures that substantiate the claim, please post them.

Now, Samurai also posted the results of a survey which indicates that the 3-star and above hotels and resorts in Kerala are losing MICE revenue, which they and tour operators (two groups surveyed) attribute to the excise policy. Of importance is that these two groups DO NOT attribute to the excise policy the loss in overall tourist arrivals; this they attribute primarily to increased competition. That is, even though the number of tourists are increasing year on year, they don't go to these hotels or resorts because the competition's offering is "better" - this is where I brought in the homestays, who as per reports are stealing business from hotels & resorts by way of better quality, cheaper prices and generally being more customer friendly.

So in summary, there seems to be a loss of business in a particular segment (MICE) for a particular class of service providers (3+ star hotels/resorts) that is attributable to the excise policy. Extrapolating this to claim that the excise policy is disastrous for the tourism industry in the entire state is being economical with the truth.

Originally Posted by V-16

The finance minister of Kerala is also instrumental in increasing the GST [...] they are an accidents waiting to happen.

Didn't quite understand the relevance of this to the present discussion.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by binand

You keep saying that; but what I don't understand is why would anyone invest in a veg restaurant when there is no demand for it? The only plausible reason I can think of is that the veg restaurant somehow attracts a certain class of people to the resort; in which case the restaurant is a cost centre and they shouldn't be griping about it being loss-making. Otherwise, what is stopping the resort management from shutting it down?

I have to keep telling because you don't understand the idiosyncrasies of the business. The only point you got right was that veg restaurant is a cost center. That is where staff will eat, guests will have breakfast, their teetotaler family will eat, etc.

A typical hotel has a whole bunch of rooms, conference center, bars, and restaurants. Guests in the room, conference center and the restaurant consume lots of liquor supplied from the bar. Bars usually charge 2-3 times the price you pay at a liquor store. The guests sleep in the room, hold meetings in the conference center, and have meals in the restaurant. But liquor from the bar is like Sauron's one ring that rules them all. It brings in the maximum profit, and makes others possible. Without the bar, those conference center won't be booked, and rooms won't be taken. It can't be sustained. These businesses were started with the firm understanding that liquor will keep cashflow on the positive side.

Then some judge or politician who has no understanding of business, decides that bars should shutdown.

Originally Posted by binand

You mean, for 12 years this "hard to get a booking" resort (which we'll take as 90% occupancy) has been loss-making and the owner hasn't yet figured out how to change that? In 12 years, with 90% occupancy??? Either the owner has no clue, or this is a money laundering operation.

Why do you care? He does know how to change it, he just needs get a bar license. He did it for a religious reason, and now he is too proud/pious to change it. But it proves the business case that resort without liquor is not sustainable. Only homestays can survive this because they don't have to follow most of the compliance matters, and pay lot less tax.

Originally Posted by binand

Didn't quite understand the relevance of this to the present discussion.

You don't understand the relevance because you don't understand the industry. I am really getting tired of saying this now.

Gogi is an hospitality industry representative who regularly deals at ministry level. The GST council set the GST for hospitality industry at 28%. So he was telling you that the people who make these asinine decisions, do so because of total ignorance. The judge who made the liquor ban obviously thinks he did an ethical decision, a righteous decision. In truth, it is an industry killing decision, made by a non-business person who has zero stakes and no understanding of the industry.

[Stratosphere]

Originally Posted by Samurai

But liquor from the bar is like Sauron's one ring that rules them all. It brings in the maximum profit, and makes others possible. Without the bar, those conference center won't be booked, and rooms won't be taken. It can't be sustained. These businesses were started with the firm understanding that liquor will keep cashflow on the positive side.

I agree with Samurai. I am a hotelier and run a resort which has the biggest pillarless banquet hall in India. We used to think that this was our USP, and it was upto a certain extent.
But every (95%) celebration in India, be it corporate or social is based on the fact that there will be liquor.

Once the ban came into effect, our clients were lost and wanted to cancel their reservations. Some of them even did. It was only due to some quick thinking that I could get liquor served in my property while remaining within the bounds of law.
I shudder to think what would have happened to the business if I hadn't. My restaurant is still reeling from the impact and had seen continued decreases in customer bookings and walk ins.

These orders may be passed by intellectuals who think its for the public good, but they are far away from the ground reality of what are the effects.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by sdp1975

I find nothing misleading in the report per se . All it says is that other factors remaining constant, enforcement included, reducing the availability of alcohol does reduce accidents and deaths.

If the sudden unavailability of liquor (not just in highways, but everywhere) could reduce the DUI deaths by 60%, one can conclude that there was hardly any enforcement in the first place.

Pre-condition: No DUI enforcement.
Situation: 100 deaths per month (just some number)

Liquor gets banned.

Post-condition: No DUI enforcement.
Situation: 40 deaths per month (i.e. 60% reduction) & hotel industry destroyed.

What if the pre-condition was strict DUI enforcement? Then the reduction would have been very little. It is easy to gauge if you live in any strict DUI enforcement cities.

Now let's consider the highway liquor ban. It will not have similar impact because one can easily travel 500m off the the highway and get it. In fact, get ready to see direction boards all along the NH/SH saying "Hotel XXX - 500m from Hwy". They don't have to advertise they are bar or pub. 500m will be the new code word. It is already happening in my native district.

[kozhissery]

I don't have any had facts to prove that banning liquor has affected tourism.
But to quote a friend of mine who is in hotel/hospitality industry after the alcohol banning in all hotels below 5 star, said the following
"Previously we used to get many official parties (medical rep meets, company meets) which were held during every quarter or half yearly particularly for the lower rung of executives held in 3/4 star categories have moved to Tamilnadu as alcohol could not be served legally". For senior execs this still happens as 5 start hotels are allowed to serve liquor.

[sgiitk]

Anything to curb drunken driving or as the British call it 'Driving under the Influence ...' is more than welcome. unfortunately, in India social drinking is almost unheard of.

In my five years (3+2) in the UK was always the 'designated driver' voluntarily. So that should tell you about my habits.