![]() | #106 | |
Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | ![]() Quote:
This group is like the daily mail Last edited by tsk1979 : 1st April 2017 at 00:21. | |
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![]() | #107 | |
Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | ![]() I don't know about other states, but Karnataka government heavily relies on liquor revenue, both officially and unofficially. Apart from the sales, the state charges few lakhs every year on license renewal, apart from the huge bribe to approve the renewal every year. Even the police depends heavily on their hafta from all bars and pubs. This ban will destroy at least 80% of this business. So it makes me wonder, how is the state government going to make up for the shortfall of this huge revenue. Also, how will excise/police going to make up for their unofficial revenue. I am afraid, in both cases new targets will be picked. State will increase some other tax to fill the short fall, and the officials will target some other business to harass. Both are not going to take on austerity measures and try to live will lesser revenue. Quote:
Even at other places, now bars/pubs will move into residential areas to get far enough from the highways. That is a new can of worm waiting to be opened. Enforcement is the only way to really reduce DUI, just moving the shops away will not do it. | |
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![]() | #108 | ||
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Bangalore
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The thing to remember (and what most politicians forget) is that the government is not a money-making enterprise. The function of government is to facilitate wealth creation. The alcohol industry in a net wealth destructor, hence government has to discourage this industry by policy. The contraction of the alcohol industry results in many benefits elsewhere - apart from the direct "a rupee less spent on alcohol is a rupee more spent on other items", there are benefits in public health, law & order, judiciary & litigation, enforcement etc. Quote:
Bars and other alcohol outlets need local self-governance bodies' NOC to function. If the representatives of these bodies put their foot down, bars will not be able to shift to residential areas either. With 50% women's reservation in these bodies (a demographic that consumes far less alcohol but bears the brunt of its social impact) they can make a difference. This is already seen in Kerala - the KSBC is unable to find alternate locations for its outlets (affected by this decision) due to massive backlash at the local level. Even in Bangalore, Indira Nagar (100 ft road and neighbourhoods) is rising in unity against the proliferation of bars; hopefully their efforts will produce positive results. | ||
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![]() | #109 | |
Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | ![]() Quote:
Are you suggesting prohibition actually works? This is based on the data from which state or country? And why should they? DUI is tackled in developed countries without touching the supply side. | |
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![]() | #110 |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: bangalore
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| ![]() Update: SC Ban on liquor shops near highways to remain http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...le17751013.ece Salient points: Ban extends not only liquor outlets, but also to include pubs, bars, restaurants, etc. located on the highway. Not only National highway, but also includes State highways and important arterial roads. No liquor zone to be 220m instead of 500m for places with population less than 20000 Himachal pradesh - instead of 500m, it is 220m TN and Kerala's petitions on modifying the guidelines rejected. Sikkim, Meghalaya have got exemption from the 500m rule - due to consideration of the terrain. (Not sure whether this is a good move - more dangerous to have DUI issues in hilly terrain!) The wordings say from April 1st or when the license comes for renewal. Which means state like TN, the ban starts from today. Karnataka and AP, gets till Sep.30 and Telengana gets June 30. Last edited by haria : 1st April 2017 at 13:21. |
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![]() | #111 | ||
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Bangalore
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1. The size of the alcoholic beverages industry in the US in 2016 was $211 billion. - http://www.parkstreet.com/alcoholic-...rket-overview/ 2. In 2006 - a good 10 years prior to the above - the economic cost of binge drinking was estimated to be $223 billion. - https://www.cdc.gov/features/alcoholconsumption/ 3. Even in 2016, the cost of alcohol related problems was $176 billion. The economic cost (cost of lost productivity, DUI related costs, cost of justice system etc.) must take that number well over the size of the industry. - http://www.alcoholpolicymd.com/alcoh...alth/costs.htm Quote:
Which developed country has tackled DUI without touching supply side? A successful tackle of that kind will result in little or no DUI-related accidents or deaths. Has any country accomplished that? Even today about a third of all road accident deaths in the US are in DUI crashes. | ||
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![]() | #112 | ||
Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | ![]() Same here. In fact, it was the only exam I wrote physically at Wall Street. ![]() Quote:
Your data would be relevant if we are talking about P/L of an industry. For example, most people in my district have discontinued traditional farming because it is a net wealth destructor. Due to the high cost of labour, traditional farming can only earn 70-80% of the cost. So people have given up farming and have taken jobs in retail or manufacturing sector. But liquor industry is not like farming. Net loss doesn't mean capital/resource will flow to other industry. Lots of countries have tried prohibition only to revoke it later. The cost of maintaining prohibition turned out to be much more than the cost of alcoholism. Instead, they made it legal, so that it can be controlled and taxed heavily. The revenue generated by excise duty is huge for most Indian states. It is a proven fact that increasing the cost of alcohol, does reduce the consumption. But this is a method that can't be stretched beyond a point. If you make it too expensive, it will lead to illicit liquor production/consumption and then the cure is worse than the ailment. Quote:
Consider a demand-supply graph. The hardcore drinkers (who mostly drink and drive) are usually at the higher end (left side) of the demand curve. Moderate drinkers (who rarely drink and drive) are usually at the low end (right side) of the demand curve. When you move the supply curve to the left, using higher price or restricted access, who really gives up drinking? Obviously, the ones in the low end of demand curve, but not the hardcore drinkers who commit DUI. This is why countries with mature policies have left the supply side untouched. Instead, they focus on enforcement via DUI checkpoints to catch the real culprits. For example, I remember that in NJ one could get his car impounded and even lose the DL if caught while DUI. Without a car/DL, you can be crippled in NJ. That is a big deterrence for DUI. I am skeptical of this 500 meter rule because it only touches on the supply side, making it slightly difficult to obtain liquor. That won't stop the hardcore drivers, who usually commit DUI. Meanwhile, it has destroyed tens of thousands of legitimate businesses, and put their employees out of work. I know many who invested heavily (often running in crores) quite recently in new bars/pubs, taking loans and putting their life savings. The legal business they started, is now wrecked. | ||
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![]() | #113 |
Senior - BHPian ![]() | ![]() In addition to that, black marketing, bottle-under-the blanket in dhabas, and moonshine shall be on the rise. Anyone who thinks prohibition stops diehard drunkards from drinking is living in a fools paradise. As you mentioned, prohibition / supply side control only dissuades the moderates and the occasional drinkers, and they were the not the ones responsible for DUI anyway in the first place. |
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![]() | #114 |
Senior - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Gurgaon
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| ![]() Forget all of the logical arguments for / against binge drinking, the moot point here (allow me to wear my consultant hat here), is the hon. SC's hypothesis that liquor vends located on the highway increase DUI. Moving them 500m away solves the DUI problem substantially. Now the problem with such a decree is that it is based in opinion when extensive data is available. The first question was whether in-city DUI has anything to do with liquor vends on arterial roads. And whether removal of "convenient" liquor vends reduced DUI. Now all of this could've been achieved with a simple 3-6 month pilot in any of the specific that are the most affected (again, data is available!). From the news, nothing of this sort has been done. Why are such sweeping and disruptive decrees passed purely on the moral "strength" of an idea, than by truly experimenting and seeing whether the theory holds up in real life?! |
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![]() | #115 | |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Kolkata
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When this fact can not be proven or justified by valid data that only removing shops from highways will put drunk driving to a complete stop, this sort of judgement purely on the basis of individual notion is a typical example of judicial overreach. And sadly in India, we are seeing more of this more often than not recently. Last edited by Carpainter : 2nd April 2017 at 11:45. | |
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![]() | #116 |
BHPian Join Date: May 2008 Location: Bengaluru
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![]() | #117 | ||||||
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Bangalore
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Anyway, this discussion is now probably off-topic for this thread; so I'll be happy to take it off from here to PMs. Quote:
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- First, the people on the left side of the demand curve are not "hardcode drinkers". They are the people who are willing to pay a lot more than the market discovered price for their alcohol. If we consider all types of alcohol as fungible, then these are the people who buy imported champagne and single malt scotch whisky and the like. - Second, your "hardcore" and "moderate" classification is about the amount and frequency of consumption I imagine; it can't be a direct indicator of whether someone DUIs or not. Occasional drinkers will DUI too; and I reckon they are more likely to DUI (since they consume alcohol only occasionally, they might not be fully aware of the cognitive effect of alcohol on themselves). - Third, alcohol I think is price-inelastic on the demand side; so the kind of "give up drinking" you postulate might not happen with a price rise. What is more likely to happen is that discretionary spending elsewhere will be cut by consumers in response to a price rise of alcohol. Quote:
Btw, in multiple pubs in the UK I have seen this system in place: Among a group of drinkers, one or more are designated as drivers and will not be served alcohol (the group informs the bartender beforehand). If the designated driver (or a solo drinker, or anyone, really) wants to drink they then surrender their vehicle keys to the bartender (who will then arrange for the cab/minicab to take them home). I'm not sure how this system came into being; but I imagine as a demand-side control it is far more effective than DUI checks though it operates on the honour code. Quote:
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1. State highways get union government funding from the cess collected and various infrastructure development programmes. Once you start denotifying state highways, you end up with lesser share of such funds. 2. The power of states to collect toll on non-state highways is limited. This will affect the states' ability to develop such roads on BOT basis. 3. The maintenance of these denotified roads will become the responsibility local self-government bodies (panchayats/municipalities/corporations) who seldom have the funds or the knowhow to maintain such roads. Net effect of all three seems to me is that roadways development will take a huge step backward in the states that choose to go down this denotification path. | ||||||
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![]() | #118 | ||||||
Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | ![]() Quote:
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I also realise you are not an entrepreneur, so you don't know what kind of risk taking is involved in starting a business. Any business needs certain stable environment to operate. An entrepreneur usually plans for all kind of challenges and situations. But a change in law that bans your business is not something any business will prepare for. | ||||||
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![]() | #119 |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Bangalore
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| ![]() Now I understand why you are batting for the liquor industry. I on the other hand have lost people who mattered to me in DUI accidents, so it is unlikely that we'd ever come to an agreement. And since now we have reached ad hominem levels I'll refrain from further comments. |
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![]() | #120 |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Trivandrum
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| ![]() I am a teetotaler. This order has not affected me adversely in any manner. But yes... It's brought out a positive change in my life. There was a liquor shop near my wife's house (Bakery Junction, Trivandrum for those of you familiar with Trivandrum). It was a challenge to pass the shop. If we want to take an evening walk or go to one of the restaurants at the junction we had to pass by this shop. It's difficult to walk with the stench of liquor and unruly people throwing around cuss words and abuse and having brawls at any point of the day not to say anything about the inevitable ones who have passed out from drinking liquor right on the spot. Some can be seen queing up as early as 7 in the morning for a shop that opens at 10. If we shun walking and take the car, again these very same people would have their vehicles parked haphazardly choking the flow of traffic. Very often I have seen shamefaced wives waiting by the roadside along side a two wheeler with small kids while the husband has joined the queue to get his daily quota without which he would not survive? When the ruling came I was happy that he store would be closed. But horror of horrors. The store was being shifted to near my house at Nanthencode. And that too right at the entrance to a small lane leading to the back gate of a nearby girls school. Imagine the plight of the girls having to deal with this on a daily basis. The local people along with the school students under the leadership of teachers, local political and social leaders rose up as one and put an end to it. Otherwise I shudder to think if the same scenario at Bakery Junction had repeated at Nanthencode in a residential area with small kids, a girls school and an even narrower road. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Last edited by Ramon : 3rd April 2017 at 08:39. |
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