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Old 8th August 2018, 15:14   #286
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
All that is fine. Its very easy to formulate a method to calculate. I am reiterating, I am not interested in the method, just the outcome. Going by your statements which include a lot of "we can" "we could", I am sure that all that has been said is just theory and that has not actually been used before you made the statement.
You used the word 'statistics'. The foundation of statistics is probability. We never say something IS the case, we say something IS LIKELY the case. That is the difference between PROBABILISTIC science and DETERMINISTIC science.

If you are looking at EXACTness without could, can, maybe - we need a census. And a census of talking to all vehicle owners does not seem to be scientifically viable. Which is why I have suggested a statistical approach. If you are looking at a census, even Mahindra might not be able to help you

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
Please don't expect others to do the leg work to prove that your statement was wrong. Its as simple as that.
Anyways, I am out of here. Can't afford to spend any more of my time and effort towards a discussion which doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Good luck.

I never expected you to do any legwork. I explained a method scientifically to come up with a solution. Good luck buddy! Everyone's time is precious

Last edited by bhpfaninblr : 8th August 2018 at 15:18.
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Old 8th August 2018, 15:22   #287
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

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Originally Posted by samaspire View Post
Something's not right here. The airbags are supposed to deflate immediately. Why is one still inflated?
I second that thought, something is not right. PIC

As per my understanding, airbag deploys only if the person on the seat is belted up. (This is to avoid injury from the airbag being deployed). From the above pic and the condition of the passenger side airbag, it looks as if no one was on the seat, hence the bag is holding its inflated position / structure.

Is this because of a faulty sensor?

Last edited by Spinnerr : 8th August 2018 at 15:26.
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Old 8th August 2018, 15:38   #288
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinnerr View Post
As per my understanding, airbag deploys only if the person on the seat is belted up. (This is to avoid injury from the airbag being deployed).
I have read this statement a lot of times on this thread and on TBHP but this is totally incorrect. I'm not 'targeting' your post, but just quoting it to clear the air around it . Although it depends on the manufacturer but most of them do not wire the airbags with the seat belts. I've stated again and again on various threads that in case a passenger is not belted, the airbags can in fact deploy at a lower severity threshold too.
Below is straight from the Honda manual, please have a look at it:

Name:  airbags.jpg
Views: 3379
Size:  164.6 KB


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinnerr View Post
From the above pic and the condition of the passenger side airbag, it looks as if no one was on the seat, hence the bag is holding its inflated position / structure. Is this because of a faulty sensor?
Not all cars have sensors for pax. In that case, both front airbags will deploy.

Regards,
Saket.

Last edited by saket77 : 8th August 2018 at 15:40.
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Old 8th August 2018, 16:51   #289
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinnerr View Post
I second that thought, something is not right. PIC

As per my understanding, airbag deploys only if the person on the seat is belted up. (This is to avoid injury from the airbag being deployed). From the above pic and the condition of the passenger side airbag, it looks as if no one was on the seat, hence the bag is holding its inflated position / structure.

Is this because of a faulty sensor?
Hi Samaspire & Spinerr,

This is the wonder of TBHP. So many people to point things out. Even I did not notice the "still inflated" passenger side airbag.
FYI : There was no one in the passenger seat at the time of the accident.

However, I was also under the impression that it is a single sensor for both airbags irrespective of whether someone is sitting there or not. As far as I know, there is an option in some newer model cars to switch off the passenger side airbag if the seat is empty but that facility is not there in the SX4.

Regards,
SS
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Old 9th August 2018, 00:04   #290
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

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Originally Posted by ferrarirules View Post
First of all Arvind, wishing a speedy recovery to your son and may you get the justice you deserve.



I dont think you are getting the point here. The approach that you have taken is right. But the assumptions for gathering the realistic sample is way off. You are basing your statistics on a sample which doesn't take into account alot of factors. I will mention a few

1. How many people who own a Maruti or Ecosport have access to internet?
2. How many of these people reported their airbag failures on the internet?
3. How many pages of google search results did you use to gather a substantial sample. Not every incident will be present on the first few pages of google search as the number of Maruti cars is way higher than Mahindra or XUV?

Answers to these questions will add major deviation in the sample collected by you. So no one is challenging you on the maths of it. What everyone is challenging is that the sample set which you used for analysis or "Statistical inference" is incorrect/insufficient.

Hence it is wrong to generalize that XYZ manufacturer doesn't make good cars based on weak sample data.
First of all, best wishes for Madhav!

But on the point of the poster you are replying to, perhaps he jumped the gun a bit in drawing a "statistical inference", but the assumption that online access is similar across passenger vehicles in justifiable enough for a quick and dirty estimate.
All this is academic BTW. Hope Madhav recovers and hope Arvind is able to get answers to his satisfaction.
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Old 9th August 2018, 16:42   #291
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

This thread is creating good awareness where News18 has article on its front Web page
https://www.news18.com/news/auto/xuv...=hp_top_pos_10

Arvind, wishing a speedy recovery to your son and we will provide all the support we can to fight Mahindra on this issue
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Old 9th August 2018, 21:02   #292
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Default Re: 2013 Mahindra XUV-500 W8. Severe crash & not a single airbag deployed.

Arvind, Hope Madhav recovers soon . I too use a XUV W8 model (2012) and really scared of the turn of events.

As previously enquired in earlier posts, Did you go for the Mahindra Recall / Service Update? Are you sure, Madhav was wearing seat belt on?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bhpfaninblr View Post
There are at-least 4 instances on this thread where a XUV involved in an accident has not had its airbags deployed.

There are so many stories of how Mahindra is experimenting their petrol engine on poor KUV buyers. I wonder how safe the KUV would be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhpfaninblr View Post
Horrible to say the least. Mahindra should stick to manufacturing tractors and farm equipment. XUV500 is an example of a poorly engineered unsafe vehicle. Mahindra has duped the KUV petrol owners (many of them first time buyers) with a dubious engine.


XUV500 airbags failing has more than 10 instances on team-bhp itself.


Mahindra should stay away from passenger vehicle segment.
Strictly OT :
You seems to have some really bad experience with Mahindra. In the first post you quoted 4 instances of air bag not deploying.

In the next post you have raised it to 10 instances.

Can you please mention the 10 instances in Team BHP? I searched but did not get the 10 instances you've mentioned. Just curious.

Last edited by Vasuki : 9th August 2018 at 21:19.
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Old 9th August 2018, 21:44   #293
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

This particular crash is being discussed in various groups and in one of those groups, I was looking forward to what one particular gentlemen Sanjeev had to say regarding the crash. Somehow couldn't find his comments at all. So pinged him 1 on 1 a few hours back. The following is copy and paste from the chat.

SDP :
Quote:
I am not very sure if you have seen the thread ....< Link to this thread>. Would be great if you can offer some technical insight based on the pics and accident description from first page.
Sanjeev :
Quote:
from what i could see the first and major impact areas are all looking well out of airbag trigger criteria, the driver door has taken the hit from top window sill, and the door crumple zone is not deformed yet, the frontal impact also is up till the cross member but no disloge seen* technically the rear wheel knuckle broken also indicate most of the impact had been on to it.We need to discount the roof as there is no air bag deploy trigger there.
And again if the seat belt was not blucked in, no airbags will be deployed. this can be easily ascertained if any of the triggers where indeed got activated, the shall stay crushed(its a one way switch) without the completion of circuit from seat belt switch
SDP :
Quote:
The father seems to claim that seatbelts were buckled
Sanjeev :
Quote:
Was part of Crash test team ,i know for sure its easily discoverable.

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screenshot_20180809211337.jpg

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screenshot_20180809211343.jpg

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screenshot_20180809211349.jpg
SDP :
Quote:
Does any ECU record data like speed, seatbelts worn, and other parameters at the moment of impact? Does that happen even if airbags are not deployed?
The paranoia from the father about handing over the vehicle to Mahindras is understandable. He is worried that any data recorded might be wiped off or tampered to suit Mahindras narrative. So was wondering if there are any third party agencies who have the technical know how and facilities to carry out an independent investigation about what exactly happened and why the airbags didn't deploy?
Sanjeev :
Quote:
its their rep at stake, but from what i can see from pics that wont be necessary. The apron, and wheel archs dislodgement can reveal a lot again.
In india there is no certified crash surveyors other than insurance folks(they can only ascertain a damage and not do a rca at the level we want to)
SDP :
Quote:
Last question ..what do you do for a living? And how do you know so much about the technicalities involved in the Auto industry?
Sanjeev :
Quote:
Now a Program manager in IT,been part of TCS F1 R&D , been a ex Consultant in ARAI and ex technical delegate in fmsci.
As part of ARAI stint done some documentation as well for NCAP
SDP :
Quote:
Thank you so much for your time. Much appreciated.

Last edited by SDP : 9th August 2018 at 22:01. Reason: Reproduced as is. Please ignore typos and shortforms etc
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Old 10th August 2018, 00:16   #294
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

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Originally Posted by bking View Post
Sharing pictures of my recently crashed ford figo. I was driving and came out unscratched. The car went into a divider after slipping due to gravel. The divided had quite a height. Side impact only, still both the front airbags deployed...
.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
This particular crash is being discussed in various groups and in one of those groups, I was looking forward to what one particular gentlemen Sanjeev had to say regarding the crash....
.
.
TBHPian bking had posted pics of his Ford where both the airbags deployed even though the impact was on the side. If you go by Sanjeev's parameters this shouldn't have happened since the trigger zone for the front airbags would be in the front of the car. What am I missing here? Earlier, in another thread (can't remember which), a member had enquired if it was possible that Indian cars rely on switches rather than sensors for airbag deployment. Could this be such a case? It's difficult to see the logic in having such limited
impact zones to trigger the airbags.

Last edited by Roy.S : 10th August 2018 at 00:19.
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Old 10th August 2018, 08:57   #295
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Even if I agree that the seat-belts were not worn, any of the air-bag not opening is simply not done. I have seen few XUV's with their air-bags being opened [in the yard or the body-shop of an ASC] and in this case it is baffling, something is wrong with the triggering mechanism is what I feel.

And for the record, one XUV W8's airbags had opened despite the occupant not wearing seat-belt, he had his damages to show me [this was way back in 2015 IIRC].
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Old 10th August 2018, 12:02   #296
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

I have been out of action for more than 2 weeks due a personal emergency and have started really looking at this thread just 2-3 days back. So please allow me to jump in the middle of the on-going discussion.

First and foremost, my heart goes out to Arvind and his family who are going through a terrible time due to what happened. I sincerely hope and pray that Madhav gets better and recovers fully soon.

When I started reading the thread thoroughly from start yesterday, I was appalled by many of the comments. I have huge respect for this forum because of the maturity of the members here. So it was painful to witness the mindless Mahindra bashing (and even Tata in some posts) which has been going on, which is almost similar to the mob-violence that is so common nowadays.. just a sophisticated, polished-English version of it. There is no first-person account of what exactly happened. There has been no investigation (by police) about the accident itself (at least nothing shared on the thread) and no investigation (by manufacturer or any independent body) of the car involved to understand the reasons behind what happened. In that case, I fail to understand why so many well-educated and knowledgeable members jumped to the conclusion, putting the blame squarely on the car and the manufacturer.

I am not an expert in this area and have commented on neither the cause of the accident nor the air-bag deployment failure as I consider it irresponsible to comment on something without having some depth in the area and having a complete understanding of what happened. Instead, I chose to reach out to someone who has the domain experience and sought some insights which have been shared verbatim some 2-3 posts above this.

When I saw the accident car pics for the first time, even I thought that at least some airbags should have deployed. In fact, I would have preferred if all airbags would have deployed providing some protection to the accident victim. But, please note that the car is a machine and it works as per how it is designed and not as per what you and me would have liked or preferred it to behave.

Are there any pointers to how the airbags in the XUV are designed to behave? Yes, just have a look at sandeepmdas's post and pics of owner's manual in this post. Hasn't the manufacturer clearly stated that in case of a frontal impact from a tree or a pole, the airbags would not deploy? Look at the pic of the damage to the cross-member behind the front-bumper. The impact is exactly in the center just like a impact from a tree/pole. If the car is designed that way and it is explicitly stated in the owner's manual, why are so many on this thread expecting the car to behave any other way? Sanjeev has pointed out a clearly visible un-bent crumple-zone bar on the driver's side door. Whether you or me like it or not, a severe impact to that bar is necessary for deployment of the side airbags. That's the way the machine is designed to work and I am pretty sure that's the way it works across the industry. Just in case you are not aware, please note that Mahindras (or for that matter any car manufacturer) doesn't design/manufacture airbags. Airbag modules are sourced from a handful of suppliers globally and I don't believe the car manufacturer would be allowed to implement/configure them in their cars in whichever way they want. The airbag supplier would disown any accountability in that case.

Not directly applicable to this accident, but members have pointed out to another thread where a XUV toppled and side-airbags didn't deploy. Someone else has shared pic of another toppled XUV and lot of members are happy to feed those instances to their confirmation-bias and arrive at their own conclusions about airbag deployment in the XUV. How many have read sandeepmdas's post a few pages BEFORE and seen the illustration in the manual which clearly says that in case of a roll-over (a topple is first part of a rollover scenario) the side-airbags may not deploy? Why are so many people still expecting the side airbags to deploy in those cases?

Even if we assume that in Arvind's case the airbags should have deployed and they didn't due to a malfunction, how does one ascertain whether this is an isolated incident or an issue with specific batches or a fundamental design flaw with the model? Without any investigation, how and why did some members jumped to the conclusions - "are airbags really installed in the XUV?", "all XUVs are unsafe" and even "all Mahindra vehicles are unsafe"? Frankly, very disappointing! Was expecting better from the members of this respected forum.

The Mahindra statement talks about 7000 airbags consumed at dealerships. That means keeping aside the totaled vehicles (which would go to scrap mostly), there have been 7000 XUVs in which the airbags did deploy and were replaced as part of repairs. No idea how many XUVs have been in severe accidents and how many were totaled, but given that the total number of XUVs is about 2.19 lakh, isn't the 7000 number large enough to consider before members come to any sort of the conclusions about the safety of the XUV in general and probability of airbag deployment in particular?

How many here are aware of the ANCAP crash test rating for the XUV5OO? If you are not, please search on YouTube. A certification from an independent international third-party agency which specializes in the domain. Why are so many members ready to ignore that and claim that the XUV is a Indian jugaad vehicle?

Its time to keep your biases and prejudices aside and look at this case objectively.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy.S View Post
TBHPian bking had posted pics of his Ford where both the airbags deployed even though the impact was on the side. If you go by Sanjeev's parameters this shouldn't have happened since the trigger zone for the front airbags would be in the front of the car. What am I missing here?
Front airbags by definition are supposed to be triggered by a direct impact to the front. So what do you call it when the front airbags deploy in a side-impact scenario like what happened with tbhpian bking's Ford? Sorry for possibly jumping the gun (without having the complete details), but the word that comes to my mind is - malfunction.

Quote:
It's difficult to see the logic in having such limited impact zones to trigger the airbags.
Please understand that sensors are sophisticated pieces of hardware and don't come cheap. Anybody who has replaced any kind of sensor in any car and paid for it, would be able to relate to that comment. Yes, the manufacturer can design a car with sensors next to each other like a LED strip and have multiple of those sensor strips running all along the car's exteriors. But I don't believe its a realistic design approach given that every product is built to a cost. Are there other vehicles in the same segment which has more sensors than the XUV? I don't know. Knowledgeable members can possibly answer that.

Last edited by SDP : 10th August 2018 at 12:39.
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Old 10th August 2018, 12:32   #297
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Sorry SDP I am not convinced with your post. If we go by your post then this is even bigger issue than suspected, this is a defect in design. If the sensors in XUV are designed in a way to save Airbags rather than it's occupants it seems to be a flaw.
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Old 10th August 2018, 12:42   #298
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
Sorry SDP I am not convinced with your post. If we go by your post then this is even bigger issue than suspected, this is a defect in design. If the sensors in XUV are designed in a way to save Airbags rather than it's occupants it seems to be a flaw.
Can you please cite other examples from vehicles of same segment / price-point where the design is different? Screenshots from owner's manual or any technical documentation would be highly appreciated.

Last edited by SDP : 13th August 2018 at 15:16. Reason: typo
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Old 10th August 2018, 13:10   #299
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
I was looking forward to what one particular gentlemen Sanjeev had to say regarding the crash. Somehow couldn't find his comments at all. So pinged him 1 on 1 a few hours back.
Quote:
SDP :
Quote:
Last question ..what do you do for a living? And how do you know so much about the technicalities involved in the Auto industry?
Sanjeev :
Quote:
Now a Program manager in IT,been part of TCS F1 R&D , been a ex Consultant in ARAI and ex technical delegate in fmsci.
As part of ARAI stint done some documentation as well for NCAP
Sorry, but I am not able to understand. If you were not aware who is this guy then why were you looking particularly for him?

Quote:
Please understand that sensors are sophisticated pieces of hardware and don't come cheap. Anybody who has replaced any kind of sensor in any car and paid for it, would be able to relate to that comment.Yes, the manufacturer can design a car with sensors next to each other like a LED strip and have multiple of those sensor strips running all along the car's exteriors
Do you really mean this?? Are you sure sensors are designed to get triggered only when directly hit?

Quote:
Sanjeev :
Quote:
its their rep at stake, but from what i can see from pics that wont be necessary.
I am no expert in this but the other so referred expert should have first seen the vehicle before making such a claim that the severity of crash was not much.

Last edited by Turbanator : 10th August 2018 at 13:17.
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Old 10th August 2018, 13:18   #300
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Sorry SDP - With due respect to you, I must concede that I too am not convinced by either, your post, or your friend!

I have two contentions why-

1. When I or anyone buys an Airbag equipped vehicle, the underlying expectation is that the Airbag would deploy in a severe accident - Period!
If none out of the 6 air-bags thought it worth their while, to deploy in such an accident, because the manufacturer (perhaps) wanted the impact to happen in a certain way, then I believe that the malaise actually runs deeper because as consumers we are being misled by all the advertising and feature lists, all of which leads to better profit margins.
By the way, in my very first post on this thread, I had also conceded that it would possibly be understandable if the front airbags did not deploy in this incident, but absolutely NOT the side and curtain ones.

2. After spending close to 15 years myself in the IT sector, I am wont to doubt the credibility of anyone who had to gravitate from the automobile sector to the IT sector for employment. I don't know the gentleman in question, and this doubt may be unfounded, but that IT PROGRAM MANAGEMENT stuck out like a Red Herring. I know my statement is highly controversial, and may even get me banned, but we do have an entire thread on the plight of IT graduates on this very forum and it's an excellent chronicle of the severe incompetence that is endemic in this industry or the refuge it provides to many incompetents, including me.

Last edited by roy_libran : 10th August 2018 at 13:33.
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