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Old 10th August 2018, 18:01   #316
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

On a different note I am really happy that whatever the safety features Ford has promised worked in exactly the same way they were showcased by company. Let me try to re-iterate the unfortunate accident. Will try to keep it short to save time of readers and focus precisely on the key points.

The Incident:
- Driving at speed of 90-100 kmph around 11.30 p.m on an empty stretch, saw a car trying to cross and take right on my lane.
- Since it was night used dipper and horn both as a warning signal but seems they went in vain.
- In the next moment saw the car almost in my way and at that moment I was literally standing on brakes.
- Crashed into the rear end of a zen being driven by a lady driver with my car still being in straight line.

The good part:
- Front Airbags were deployed within fraction of seconds.
- Before coming back to senses I felt a cushion around my knees(Knee airbag deployed).
- Engine was turned off automatically.
- Emergency call feature activated and I was with my wife on phone.
- Seat belt pretensioner system worked as expected and the complete assembly came out after impact.
- Checked myself, apart from my heartbeat crossing a certain level everything was fine not even minor scratches.

Despite of an accident I was happy that the safety gimmicks thrown by Ford actually worked for me on a bad day. Not same with Mahindra where the Airbags failed to deploy after severe crash. I don't think there is any point in marketing 6 airbags in XUV while none of them deploying in this case.
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Old 10th August 2018, 18:14   #317
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy.S View Post
This discussion is getting quite emotional and the mob mentality that moderator SDP had mentioned seems to be coming in. Many members (including me) are unable to grasp the logic behind all airbags failing in a car that has been so badly damaged.
The XUV failed to protect arvindb4 son with none of the airbags deploying. The unlucky is at soul with brain surgeries and the mob is doing a post mortem on why the XUV airbags did not deploy saying the cross-member is fine and there is no side beam impact. The airbags are supposed to deploy in cases to prevent head injury and it is a shocker that they did not deploy. Even more unfortunate is what I term "brand patriotism"

Quote:
Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
On a different note I am really happy that whatever the safety features Ford has promised worked in exactly the same way they were showcased by company.
Scary incident. Glad you came out fine. Ecosport is a well engineered product from Ford and nice that the features worked as expected

My heuristic was based on similar comparisons for XUV with vehicles in the same segment and even a segment lower like the Ecosport. "Reliability" (Systems performing the same way as envisioned) is the foundation of good engineering

Last edited by bhpfaninblr : 10th August 2018 at 18:17.
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Old 10th August 2018, 18:15   #318
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

XUV 500 might be a safe vehicle or not!!

Let's see this link http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-s...nding-why.html a mazda's air bag opened with a dog hit at some speed, nothing happens to the car but airbag opens.

Also

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/drive-...sion-tree.html, look at cross member, it's bent, but not torn to pieces like arvind's car.

Also

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...tml#post816274.

Arvind's car has an impact on Cross Member, it's slightly bent like the above Punto & SX4. How much it should it be deformed for an airbag to deploy?? Can a customer could take a vouch on that factor??

Also, where to place a sensor in XUV is a Mahindra's approach to Customer's safety & I would say it out loud!!! They didn't do the job right! Period! Arvind's car collision is a classic straight open-close-case of "poor safety design" & "not considering all aspects of a crash".

Last edited by 90Horses : 10th August 2018 at 18:15. Reason: grammar
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Old 10th August 2018, 18:31   #319
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhpfaninblr View Post
Scary incident. Glad you came out fine. Ecosport is a well engineered product from Ford and nice that the features worked as expected

My heuristic was based on similar comparisons for XUV with vehicles in the same segment and even a segment lower like the Ecosport. "Reliability" (Systems performing the same way as envisioned) is the foundation of good engineering
Correction: The accident happened in Endeavour not Ecosport.

Anyways this is not about segment but the question is around the sensors which are not able to detect the impact. I expect the sensors working in the same manner across all Ford models. So in a layman's language the hardware is present in XUV but the software is not supporting it.
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Old 10th August 2018, 18:38   #320
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
So in a layman's language the hardware is present in XUV but the software is not supporting it.
I think you nailed it. While a conclusive report is needed this is where the shortcoming most probably lies.
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Old 10th August 2018, 18:41   #321
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
You can see my post on this thread, Post Number #25.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-s...ml#post4432126

Below is a screenshot from Ford Owners manual where there is no terms and condition like hitting by a pole or tree. If the impact is there the Airbags will deploy and it has been proved in my last accident where I can confirm I was not driving at insane speed and the impact too was decent nothing as compared to arvindb4's car.
I believe you misinterpreted my request. Vehicles having 2 crash-sensors at front is a common design practice and I was looking for examples of vehicles from similar segment with more such sensors at the front.

I did a little bit of googling for owner's manuals and found that the Jeep Compass Owner's manual talks about potential non-deployment of front airbags in case of a impact with a pole.
XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-compass-screen-shot-.png

The Creta owner's manual also clearly mentions pole/tree-stump scenario and rollover scenario as well.
XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-creta-screen-shot.jpg

I am pretty sure if I search a bit more, I would be able to find more examples of similar warnings about poles/trees/rollover.

Quote:
Checked the Mahindra XUV's owner manual screenshots through the link in your post, trust me that is a design flaw.
That's a pretty common design across vehicles from many segments. There is an entire thread on front airbags not deploying which is related to this design.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-s...eploy-why.html

The thread starts with a Brio that hit a cement pole and airbags did not deploy.

There is a XUV pic as well where the impact happened not on the bumper but at the headlight level.

Some relevant examples from the thread.

Etios airbags did not deploy as front impact sensors not hit:
XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-etios-airbags-etios2.jpg

Innova frontal crash. Same design of crash sensors.
XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-innova-picsart_062010.57.51.jpg

Text book case of a Terrano crash with a utility pole.
Name:  Terrano Nissan hits a pole.jpg
Views: 1982
Size:  274.2 KB

Pajero. Same thing. 2 crash sensors at front.
XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-pajero-img20150816wa0003.jpg

i20 frontal crash. Crossmember broke, but sensors did not register enough impact.
Name:  i20 Frontal impact2.jpg
Views: 1940
Size:  97.4 KB

So pretty safe to say that airbags don't deploy unless the crash-sensors are hit.. irrespective of the extent of the visible damage to the car.

Last edited by SDP : 10th August 2018 at 18:56.
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Old 10th August 2018, 18:42   #322
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
Correction: The accident happened in Endeavour not Ecosport.

Anyways this is not about segment but the question is around the sensors which are not able to detect the impact. I expect the sensors working in the same manner across all Ford models. So in a layman's language the hardware is present in XUV but the software is not supporting it.
It all boils down to engineering and reliability.

Good engineering is about systems working as they should when they are warranted. I want to draw an interesting parallel in the cell phone world.
Xiaomi puts together the best hardware components and software but is unable to engineer the same to levels of Apple who are able to deliver better experiences with lesser hardware. It is all about the quality of engineering that goes into the product and not the specifications of the manufacturer
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Old 10th August 2018, 18:44   #323
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

The scenario here is,

1. A driver has met with a severe accident in an XUV 500.
2. The car visibly has significant damage.
3. The driver has survived but has severe injurious.
4. Considering all controllable and uncontrollable factors in the accident, has the XUV 500 in question protected the driver enough or has it not?
5. Did any of the primary and/or supplemental restraint systems fail?

To get answers for Point#4 and 5 one can read the Owner's Manual and engage a Government or independent crash investigation unit to thoroughly investigate the accident and then confirm if the vehicle safety systems performed optimally to protect the occupant.

Unfortunately, I think there's no Government or independent crash investigation unit in India. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It saddens me to see the level of misinformation being spread in this thread about occupant safety in automobiles.

There's a lot of confusion around SRS (Supplemental Restraint System) Airbags. The damn things are supplementary and not the primary lifesaving components in an accident. There are several factors that contribute to occupant safety and airbags certainly help but stop glorifying or crucifying SRS Airbags without understanding how and when they are supposed to work.

If there are component failures, then Mahindra should pay-up but please don't assume component failure based on your lack of understanding of SRS Airbags.

To the OP/Father: Sir, I wish your son gets well soon and may you and your family be blessed with all the support to get through this. You are obviously disappointed with the safety of XUV 500. But don't get fixated on the Airbag deployment. Please investigate the complete crash if possible and not just the SRS Airbag module. It's just one piece in the puzzle.


I own a Subaru WRX which is a 5-star ANCAP car and compared the SRS Airbag related material of that with the XUV 500's. I've attached some material for those who care to read in detail.

P.S: Just by adding Airbags a tin can won't become a tank.
Attached Thumbnails
XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-11.06.29-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-11.06.23-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-11.06.15-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-11.05.51-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-11.05.42-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-11.05.34-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-11.05.21-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-10.19.10-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-10.18.38-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-10.18.32-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-10.18.19-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-10.17.38-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-10.17.25-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-10.17.19-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-10.17.06-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-10.16.45-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-10.14.23-pm.png  

XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screen-shot-20180810-10.14.12-pm.png  

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Old 10th August 2018, 19:21   #324
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
Vehicles having 2 crash-sensors at front is a common design practice and I was looking for examples of vehicles from similar segment with more such sensors at the front.
SDP, Thanks for sharing.

This calls for a separate thread where we should check how manufacturer's has planted the Airbags and what is the deploying mechanism. As you highlighted some other manufacturer's have clearly mentioned about the collision with tree or poles this is something interesting to look out while buying car.

1. Is this something related to segment as this is not mentioned in my Endeavour's manual.

2. Is this related to specific brands say Ford support any kind of impact but the same not true for other manufacturer's.

3. Is this related to body type SUV vs MUV vs Sedans vs Hatchback (XUV being not considered as SUV here).

I strongly wish one more line related to Airbags deployment method to be added in Team-Bhp official reviews where readers can know about the type of mechanism supported by the car. Since safety being one of the most important feature in a car it should be highlighted in a broader way.

But still with the kind of impact arvind's XUV has undergone I will not agree that none of the Airbags deployed.

Last edited by roby_dk : 10th August 2018 at 19:22.
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Old 10th August 2018, 19:40   #325
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
Sorry SDP - With due respect to you, I must concede that I too am not convinced by either, your post, or your friend!

I have two contentions why-

1. When I or anyone buys an Airbag equipped vehicle, the underlying expectation is that the Airbag would deploy in a severe accident - Period!
....
I had mentioned that I will address this later. So let me do that now.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the expectation that you have mentioned. Problem occurs when the consumer and the manufacturer are not on the same page with respect to the expectation. More specifically the problem occurs when the consumer assumes that his expectation would be met without understanding if the manufacturer is also promising the same thing and if not what are the disclaimers. The consumer says - I have paid for 6 airbags and they should work in all scenarios and save my life. The manufacturer says - the airbags work in this-this-and-this scenario and don't in these-other scenarios. Have to pay attention to these details.

Quote:
If none out of the 6 air-bags thought it worth their while, to deploy in such an accident, because the manufacturer (perhaps) wanted the impact to happen in a certain way, then I believe that the malaise actually runs deeper because as consumers we are being misled by all the advertising and feature lists, all of which leads to better profit margins.
Unfortunately, whether we like it not, frontal impacts have to happen in a certain way for the airbags to deploy. Multiple examples from across manufacturers and segments have been shared in my previous post. Same applies to side-impact and airbag deployment. Most user manuals mention these conditions in detail. If it is stated in plain sight, I don't believe it amounts to misleading. The consumers have to read and understand them and not restrict their reading to the glossy brochure.

There are n number of examples (including a very popular Mercedes case) where even the deployed airbags couldn't save the occupants of a car because the cabin shell got compromised due to the severity of the crash.
With that as a context, please have a look at the original pics again.. esp this one:
XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-door-top-impact-img20180718wa0027.jpg

This impact at the top of the A-pillar which has breached the cabin is most likely the one that has caused the head-injury. When the passenger cabin is breached, airbags play almost no role in saving the occupants.

Last edited by SDP : 10th August 2018 at 20:10.
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Old 10th August 2018, 19:48   #326
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
So it was painful to witness the mindless Mahindra bashing (and even Tata in some posts) which has been going on, which is almost similar to the mob-violence that is so common nowadays.. just a sophisticated, polished-English version of it. There is no first-person account of what exactly happened. There has been no investigation (by police) about the accident itself (at least nothing shared on the thread) and no investigation (by manufacturer or any independent body) of the car involved to understand the reasons behind what happened. In that case, I fail to understand why so many well-educated and knowledgeable members jumped to the conclusion, putting the blame squarely on the car and the manufacturer.

With due respect, blaming the manufacturer is evident & natural here because the product was manufactured by him. Who else to blame? The road divider? Roadside tree? Reckless oncoming driver?

I equally fail to understand here why a well respected, knowledgeable mod like you would go on in length justifying the manufacturer!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
I am not an expert in this area and have commented on neither the cause of the accident nor the air-bag deployment failure as I consider it irresponsible to comment on something without having some depth in the area and having a complete understanding of what happened.
It's not deep understanding or being an expert that is needed here, deep understanding is needed to design an airbag sensor or airbag itself. To comprehend if the airbags should have deployed or not in this example by looking at the pictures posted, one needs some common sense and a bit of google.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
Instead, I chose to reach out to someone who has the domain experience and sought some insights which have been shared verbatim some 2-3 posts above this.
Could you share further details about this person please (I am not sure if you have already shared, apologies)? What if he is from the Social Media team of Mahindra?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
When I saw the accident car pics for the first time, even I thought that at least some airbags should have deployed. In fact, I would have preferred if all airbags would have deployed providing some protection to the accident victim.
It's not what you prefer, or what i prefer, it's in ideal scenario what should have happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
But, please note that the car is a machine and it works as per how it is designed and not as per what you and me would have liked or preferred it to behave.
If it is designed this way, I would say it is half baked without any proper tests or simulations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
Are there any pointers to how the airbags in the XUV are designed to behave? Yes, just have a look at sandeepmdas's post and pics of owner's manual in this post. Hasn't the manufacturer clearly stated that in case of a frontal impact from a tree or a pole, the airbags would not deploy? Look at the pic of the damage to the cross-member behind the front-bumper. The impact is exactly in the center just like a impact from a tree/pole. If the car is designed that way and it is explicitly stated in the owner's manual, why are so many on this thread expecting the car to behave any other way? Sanjeev has pointed out a clearly visible un-bent crumple-zone bar on the driver's side door. Whether you or me like it or not, a severe impact to that bar is necessary for deployment of the side airbags. That's the way the machine is designed to work and I am pretty sure that's the way it works across the industry. Just in case you are not aware, please note that Mahindras (or for that matter any car manufacturer) doesn't design/manufacture airbags. Airbag modules are sourced from a handful of suppliers globally and I don't believe the car manufacturer would be allowed to implement/configure them in their cars in whichever way they want. The airbag supplier would disown any accountability in that case.
You said you're not an expert. But looking at the above statements, it looks like you (or Sanjeev) were involved in the airbag design here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
Even if we assume that in Arvind's case the airbags should have deployed and they didn't due to a malfunction, how does one ascertain whether this is an isolated incident or an issue with specific batches or a fundamental design flaw with the model? Without any investigation, how and why did some members jumped to the conclusions - "are airbags really installed in the XUV?", "all XUVs are unsafe" and even "all Mahindra vehicles are unsafe"? Frankly, very disappointing! Was expecting better from the members of this respected forum.
Exactly, if the airbags did not deploy during an accident of this magnitude (again, going by the pictures posted here), they probably can do away with airbag gimmicks and stop projecting XUV to be a safer car. It's very disappointing that we have people who justify the Manufacturer here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
The Mahindra statement talks about 7000 airbags consumed at dealerships. That means keeping aside the totaled vehicles (which would go to scrap mostly), there have been 7000 XUVs in which the airbags did deploy and were replaced as part of repairs. No idea how many XUVs have been in severe accidents and how many were totaled, but given that the total number of XUVs is about 2.19 lakh, isn't the 7000 number large enough to consider before members come to any sort of the conclusions about the safety of the XUV in general and probability of airbag deployment in particular?

How many here are aware of the ANCAP crash test rating for the XUV5OO? If you are not, please search on YouTube. A certification from an independent international third-party agency which specializes in the domain. Why are so many members ready to ignore that and claim that the XUV is a Indian jugaad vehicle?

Its time to keep your biases and prejudices aside and look at this case objectively.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Front airbags by definition are supposed to be triggered by a direct impact to the front. So what do you call it when the front airbags deploy in a side-impact scenario like what happened with tbhpian bking's Ford? Sorry for possibly jumping the gun (without having the complete details), but the word that comes to my mind is - malfunction.


Please understand that sensors are sophisticated pieces of hardware and don't come cheap. Anybody who has replaced any kind of sensor in any car and paid for it, would be able to relate to that comment. Yes, the manufacturer can design a car with sensors next to each other like a LED strip and have multiple of those sensor strips running all along the car's exteriors. But I don't believe its a realistic design approach given that every product is built to a cost. Are there other vehicles in the same segment which has more sensors than the XUV? I don't know. Knowledgeable members can possibly answer that.
If as a manufacturer, you get 4 stars out of 5 in one of the crash tests, and the airbags do not deploy during the need, what is the point in having that score or the airbag? Probably the rating would only help in increasing the sales by projecting the vehicle as safe to the gullible customers. Please, for gods sake, stop justifying the manufacturer as there's a precious life fighting between life and death due to whatever failed algorithm, chip, sensor, airbag etc. The blame would 100% go to the manufacturer. And the reply that they have posted on some of the websites with respect to this incident is a total hogwash (nothing more than some canned notes). If you see their response, it is clear that they seem to be in no way taking any responsibility whatsoever with respect to the failure, apart from sympathizing with the victim.

Moreover, Mahindra is not doing any social service by installing airbags in XUV. If the Chips/sensors are costly the cost is passed on to the end user/s & not borne by the manufacturer. Here the real issue is projecting something to be safe by no way of proper calibration and charging premium for a half baked product & marketing it as premium.

Today it's Arvaind / his son. Tomorrow it can be someone else. The onus lies with the manufacturer to find out what went wrong and get it corrected rather than just shying away from the incident without proper response, thus risking the lives of many more in future.

We all love our cars, but let that not blind us from seeing the evident incompetence of the product.

Apologies if I sounded harsh, I have nothing against the manufacturer, nor you, just want the XUV to be a safer car.
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Old 10th August 2018, 19:53   #327
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
1. When I or anyone buys an Airbag equipped vehicle, the underlying expectation is that the Airbag would deploy in a severe accident - Period!
If none out of the 6 air-bags thought it worth their while, to deploy in such an accident, because the manufacturer (perhaps) wanted the impact to happen in a certain way, ..
Like @SDP has already mentioned - expectations will be there, but one needs to set one's expectations after understanding how the setup will work.

The airbags dont think. They work (inflate) on input from the sensors. The sensors will get activated if they are hit in a certain way. All these are passive components and are not doing any processing of what is happening / is going to happen to the vehicle. They are designed to work in a If > then processes, and are oblivious to everything else.
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Old 10th August 2018, 19:58   #328
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbatrody View Post
With ---snip ----er car.
Absolutely.
One other thing is, that if one is to plan out an accident so as to have the impact at "just the right spot" for the airbag to work, then just keep them at the factory itself, yeah.
And aren't the sensors supposed to be sensitive to deceleration rather than pressure? Or is that another grey area our regulations allow? Disclaimer: not throwing out bait here. Asking with genuine curiosity.
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Old 10th August 2018, 20:54   #329
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
One other thing is, that if one is to plan out an accident so as to have the impact at "just the right spot" for the airbag to work, then just keep them at the factory itself, yeah.
And aren't the sensors supposed to be sensitive to deceleration rather than pressure? Or is that another grey area our regulations allow? Disclaimer: not throwing out bait here. Asking with genuine curiosity.
Exactly my question a page back. Experts, kindly clarify the part above in bold. Please.

On the hindsight, do we really need a cover up for an airbag not being deployed, by citing failed examples of other manufacturers?

Last edited by thoma : 10th August 2018 at 20:59.
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Old 10th August 2018, 21:09   #330
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbatrody View Post
With due respect, blaming the manufacturer is evident & natural here because the product was manufactured by him. Who else to blame? The road divider? Roadside tree? Reckless oncoming driver?
.....
Buddy, please don't mind, but you know how I am feeling right now? I am feeling like being in a zombie apocalypse movie where irrespective of how many zombies you drop, new ones keep on coming at you frothing at the mouth shouting "Mahindra ...shame ..shame!". And even the ones that are dropped with a longish explanation, rise again and come at you in some time.
So please allow me to retire for today. I will be back tomorrow with the logic and reason ammunition reloaded.

Last edited by SDP : 10th August 2018 at 21:15.
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