[cbatrody]

Originally Posted by Jeevith

Apart form OP (who has mitigating circumstances), other members should ideally be unemotional while posting.

True, totally agree. Just because I own an XUV or some other product from Mahindra, doesn't mean I defend them tooth and nail by being emotionally attached to the brand.

As I mentioned earlier, we all love our cars, but let that not blind us from spotting the undercover inefficiencies that come to fore during these unfortunate incidents.

As 'thoma' mentioned in his post the manufacturer definitely need to know the pinch.

[roy_libran]

This thread has taken a very distasteful turn. :(

While many have pointed out or questioned Mr. Arvind's 'emotions', I request that all forum members, keep their own emotions in check - both sides of the table.

It's a struggle between a -
- hapless father vs. a global conglomerate (think of the odds)!
- of a common man vs. the infinitely endowed and connected
- of expectation vs. reality
- of single-minded, lone perseverance vs. a giant machinery

Allow Arvind ji TIME to come out with a response and facts.

- FOLDED HANDS -

[Puneet.S]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

It's a struggle between a -
- hapless father vs. a global conglomerate (think of the odds)!
- of a common man vs. the infinitely endowed and connected
- of expectation vs. reality
- of single-minded, lone perseverance vs. a giant machinery

Aptly summed up, couldn't have said it better. The situation becomes even more difficult in the absence of stringent consumer protection laws in our country.

I have refrained from commenting on this thread till now but after reading some distasteful and unsympathetic posts, targeting Arvind and accusing him of creating emotional drama for sympathy mongering, makes me wonder if the manufacturer's risk management and PR machinery is now trying to influence this thread by introducing such petty arguments/statements here?

Or, are some playing the Devil's Advocate for the sake of objectivity (but then where is the need for personal attacks)? Or, are they living inside a bubble, smug under the ignorant belief that they have chosen their vehicle wisely and this could never happen to them (I pray that this (whatever Arvind is going through) never happens and the bubble may never burst)?

What next, the manufacturer sending a legal notice to our beloved forum, following the precedent, for loss of reputation?

In this scenario, I certainly can not give a benefit of doubt to the manufacturer but as an individual, a consumer and a father - I stand behind Arvind and wish Madhav well.

[StarrySky]

First of all, prayers for a speedy for Madhav. I hope he can resume a normal life as soon as possible.

In my view, there is no need for Arvind to bring any proof to the forum discussion. Team-BHP is not a courtroom to pass any judgement based on proof. Arguments and counter-arguments will only lead to further off-topic discussions and there will be little progress on the main issue.

What I understand is that things have reached an impasse, with Arvind unwilling to let Mahindra conduct the investigations and Mahindra possibly withholding some documents which are critical for an investigation by a third party.

Mahindra has now sent a communication to Team-BHP asking specifically for it to be publicly shared, where they have expressed a willingness to include an independent expert chosen by Arvind in the investigations. What I'm interested to see is Arvind's response to this specific offer and whether the process can move forward.

I understand Arvind is reluctant to trust the manufacturer. Fair enough - but in the absence of any governmental agency tasked with such investigations, the manufacturer is also under no obligation to trust a third party review by a private person/entity chosen by Arvind. They also have a stake in the matter and in my opinion, it must be respected.

As some of the other members have suggested, I hope both parties can come to the discussion table and find a way to move forward.

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

This thread has taken a very distasteful turn. :(

While many have pointed out or questioned Mr. Arvind's 'emotions', I request that all forum members, keep their own emotions in check - both sides of the table.
...

Allow Arvind ji TIME to come out with a response and facts.

- FOLDED HANDS -

I think that our people feel the urge to do something, anything, in order to be helpful. Most are taking Mr.Arvind's side, few are taking Mahindra's side...I can certainly empathize with our folks' urge to be helpful.

Aside from GTO's suggestion for a mediation at the table with V.Narayanan, Mr.Arvind and a Mahindra rep getting involved, most inputs here are just conjecture on either side or are commiserations.

And of course, Mr.Arvind will be emotional. He isn't Mr.Spock...can't blame him.

+1 to your call for our patience.

Even inaction is an action and has its own value in certain circumstances, such as now.

[ShaChan]

It has been about 24 hours since I posted my query and there have been numerous discussions in this thread after that but we are still nowhere close to where we were 10 pages ago. Not one person who is passionately abusing Mahindra is answering the direct questions posted by many people here - what is the next step expected? What happened to the co passenger? Why is there a conclusion and a campaign that airbags are at fault without a proper investigation? Etc.

There seems to be a pattern. There is one group of people in this thread who are sure that it's the airbag that is at fault and anyone else's request for facts or solution are called out as blind brand patriotism or various other made up fancy mental illnessess. The highlight to me was when someone said PR from Mahindra is at work! Flattered really!

It's ironic considering most people who are coming with their guns blazing have nothing to do with the brand, have not seen the vehicle or dont have any stats on what is the % of airbag malfunction. They are purely going by assumptions and hearsay and some anger they have against Mahindra or XUV or something else! The people who are asking for more information are mostly concerned Mahindra owners who probably use the XUV for many years and know so much more about how the car works and are wondering what really happened here. Yet, they are all cornered with emotional posts, called names and are asked whether they regret their decision etc. I don't see a point in posting anything else from my end in this thread. Clearly the objective is something else which am not able to comprehend.

I genuinely wish Madhav a speedy recovery. I also hope people can see objectively beyond their anger and emotions in a vehicle forum and find a closure to this issue. (I am not talking about closing this thread)

Thanks to this thread, I finally started posting after 3+ years of tbhp membership. That is the only benefit of this thread to me! Will continue reading hoping there will be a solution.

Cheers,
ShaChan
(Not from Mahindra PR team)

[SDP]

Originally Posted by arvindb4

...
All I want to say on the email from Mahindra, is that whatever they have stated is not true. I shall reply point by point....

Hello Arvind,
How are you? Hope things are getting better with every passing day on the personal front.

I am pretty sure you understand that after a detailed response from the manufacturer - with chronology of important email communication and one particular email quoted - the ball is squarely in your court to explain your side with similar concrete methods.

Although the thread has already spanned 30 pages and close to 450 posts, there are a few key questions in my mind as well as a lot of other fellow members that haven't got adequate answers till now. Just to help you answer point by point, I am listing those questions here:

1. Accident FIRs are typically pretty detailed. What has been mentioned in the FIR about the accident? Can you please share a copy so that people can understand the accident much better?
2. There was a co-passenger in the car at the time of the accident. Is he/she hurt and how severe are the injuries as compared to your son?
3. Mahindras have claimed "...had sought permission to contact the co-passenger for accident reconstruction efforts, which went un-replied". What the co-passenger has to say is actually the first-person account of how the accident happened and is crucial to the investigation. I can imagine that you might have missed replying to this permission specifically. In the interest of a thorough investigation, are you open to allow that permission now?
4. Mahindras have claimed that the ARAI type approval certificate has already been shared and have shown willingness to share other requested documents once the investigation starts. Do you see any roadblocks to actually initiate the 3rd party investigation now? Since you asked for the 3rd party investigation, I understand that you will be paying for it. I hope there are no finance related difficulties with that. If yes, a lot of supporters from this forum - including me - would love to pitch in.
5. Not asking for sharing entire email communication chains, given that time is at a premium for you at this juncture. But, the email that you wrote to Mr Anand Mahindra (which as per Mahindra claims, was sent to an incorrect email id), can you please share that with this forum (which has shown such a tremendous support to your cause)? That email is definitely important to understand what are your expectations from Mahindras and whether they have been communicated to the manufacturer.
   

Please please please .. take some time to answer these queries (have framed the questions in a manner which will not need elaborate time-consuming answers) and more importantly do initiate the 3rd party investigation urgently so that we can move towards a resolution in this case and justice for you & Madhav.

[samaspire]

Another point :

6. What about the duplicate key? Mahindra claims they asked for it but it was never sent. You say you sent the keys when the car was in the workshop for insurance claim.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by ShaChan

Not one person who is passionately abusing Mahindra is answering the direct questions posted by many people here - what is the next step expected? What happened to the co passenger? Why is there a conclusion and a campaign that airbags are at fault without a proper investigation? Etc.

Who on this forum has abused Mahindra? I don't recall seeing any abuse. If there is any, then please use the Report button to alert the mods. There is no room for abuse on Team BHP. Secondly, no one else apart from Arvind can answer the questions raised by you. Lets please wait for him to revert.

Originally Posted by ShaChan

The highlight to me was when someone said PR from Mahindra is at work! Flattered really!

Why would you feel flattered when you're not working in the Mahindra PR team? Btw, are you working in any capacity with Mahindra?

Originally Posted by ShaChan

It's ironic considering most people who are coming with their guns blazing have nothing to do with the brand, have not seen the vehicle or dont have any stats on what is the % of airbag malfunction. They are purely going by assumptions and hearsay and some anger they have against Mahindra or XUV or something else! The people who are asking for more information are mostly concerned Mahindra owners who probably use the XUV for many years and know so much more about how the car works and are wondering what really happened here. Yet, they are all cornered with emotional posts, called names and are asked whether they regret their decision etc. I don't see a point in posting anything else from my end in this thread. Clearly the objective is something else which am not able to comprehend.

There isnt any other objective. People who are bashing Mahindra are doing so because they feel that Mahindra is capable of doing much more from a safety perspective. They have hopes from the brand and hence they feel cheated to see such a cavalier attitude. Unfortunately there have been numerous incidents with this brand and in this case, someone is paying the price for airbags which did'nt deploy. Yet, his father is being called emotional. Isn't that name calling?

[androdev]

Why is it so hard for people to see that OP wants an independent probe and won't settle for anything less? Why is everyone trying to play the judge and in such a great rush to get a closure on this? The name of the manufacturer or the name of the car are irrelevant. Can a consumer have the RIGHT to an independent investigation when something as devastating as this happens?

What will any manufacturer do by getting access to the car in a case like this? I mean most of you have 20-30 years of experience dealing with companies as a regular joe consumer - what would be your guess? Let the manufacturer say "yes, let's have an independent investigation" instead of "give me the keys".

Though I have seen complaint threads affecting individual consumer, etc. on this forum and appreciated the role of team-bhp, this is the first time I am seeing a thread that has far greater significance to consumers at large and has the potential to make manufacturers more accountable.

If I own an XUV, I would write to Mahindra to facilitate an independent probe and do what's right.

Edit: As a father, it was traumatic for me when my kid met with a bicycle accident. I just can not imagine myself in OP's place. I am at a loss for words when I read some members being unkind to OP.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by ShaChan

Not one person who is passionately abusing Mahindra is answering the direct questions posted by many people here - what is the next step expected? What happened to the co passenger? Why is there a conclusion and a campaign that airbags are at fault without a proper investigation? Etc.

The "conclusion" you perceive is probably because most of the people on the forum are consumers who:

1. Pay for their cars and its features.

2. Expect these features to work. At the very least the safety features, if not the stupid electronic voice assistant and other fluff.

3. Dont want to gamble that what happened to Madhav wont happen to them.

About "passionately abusing Mahindra" - there is a whole bunch of accusations and malafide intention behind that utterance which I believe should call for some serious action, but did you genuinely expect people here to be singing paeans of glory after what has happened?

Originally Posted by ShaChan

There seems to be a pattern. There is one group of people in this thread who are sure that it's the airbag that is at fault and anyone else's request for facts or solution are called out as blind brand patriotism or various other made up fancy mental illnessess.

And there is no pattern or mal-intention in this sort of contrived speculation that seeks to somehow shield the manufacturer?

Originally Posted by ShaChan

The highlight to me was when someone said PR from Mahindra is at work! Flattered really!

The fact that you perceive this to be a compliment is worrisome.

Originally Posted by ShaChan

It's ironic considering most people who are coming with their guns blazing have nothing to do with the brand, have not seen the vehicle or dont have any stats on what is the % of airbag malfunction. They are purely going by assumptions and hearsay and some anger they have against Mahindra or XUV or something else!

Is this based on facts? Are you not speculating as much, if not much more than, the others you accuse in your post?

Originally Posted by ShaChan

Yet, they are all cornered with emotional posts, called names and are asked whether they regret their decision etc. I don't see a point in posting anything else from my end in this thread. Clearly the objective is something else which am not able to comprehend.

This is a forum known for its objectivity, and a (hyper?) active moderation team. I hope you are able to justify this accusation with something more than a bunch of words. You are accusing a whole bunch of people of being biased for no specific reason other than that they 'don't seem to like' the manufacturer, which again is pure speculation.


To summarize, this is a forum that was started off by a bunch of passionate car owners and enthusiasts. It is not, to the best of my knowledge and belief, a manufacturers forum. The manufacturers have their own associations, interest groups, PR teams and extended PR teams in social and not-so-social conventional media.

We have a situation where a vehicle has met with an accident and the advertised safety features do not seem to have done their job of protecting the occupant, which is part of the contract - written or implied - between the manufacturer and the buyer at the time of sale. You seem to be expecting users here to sympathize with the manufacturer (who the manufacturer is, is immaterial) - you may want to revisit that expectation.

The onus is on the manufacturer to prove their innocence in this instance - NOT on the aggrieved buyer to prove the sanctity of his intentions. Let us all be very clear on who the aggrieved party is - this thread is about the the experience of a customer and his subsequent ordeal. Arvind did not get his vehicle for free and crash it deliberately because he didn't like Mahindra - he invested in the Mahindra brand, story and product. It is upto Mahindra to redeem themselves here, and IMHO the OP is 1000% correct not to entrust them with the investigation.

[risham]

All the best to Madhav.


And WOW. So many views. Both for and against Mahindra.


Only one question to all :
If you had bought a car with airbags and, God forbid, an accident occured and the driver wearing a seat belt sustained frontal head injuries, what would be your take? Airbag should have deployed. Or give Mahindra the benefit of doubt?


As a person using cars since birth, driving them since school, servicing them myself in the FNG since the era of maruti 800, and proactively engaging with the manufacturers over my issues I feel the following:
1. Trust Manufacturer? NO. I have no experience with Mahindra. But based on my experiences with Fiat, Maruti, Hyundai, VW, Skoda - I, in general, do not trust car manufacturers. They will lie, cheat and what not to get away from the follies of their dealers and themselves when found out. The dieselgate scandal and its extensions into japan are only a glimpse. My first Vento's HVAC airflow control motor used to give up every 6 months. It was a known issue with a majority of Ventos. VW had an advisory to dealers to replace the entire HVAC initially and later on only the motor. But never once did they apologize for their design failure over 3 years that the issue persisted. On raising the issue of repeated motor failure with the manufacturer they reprimanded the dealer for customer complaint! As if the dealer was manufacturing the motors himself.


2. True there have been good and bad experiences, but if I were ever in a similar situation I would NOT hand over the vehicle to Mahindra. I would approach the courts to appoint an independent agency.



3. Mahindra PR team or not it is good to see that this thread has activated some sleeper members to start posting. I, being an irregular contributor myself, realise firsthand how difficult the first post is.


4. A sensor is not designed to detect changes at its own location. It is engineered (design and placement) to detect changes at the place of use of the equipment it controls. This would imply that irrespective of the placement of an airbag sensor, it has to be engineered to deploy the airbag when occupants are in danger. Else, to take it to an extreme, the sensor for airbag can be placed on the underbody in dead centre of car and a disclaimer placed in the manual that the airbag may not deploy if that spot is not under impact. How useful.



All my support is with Arvindji and I don't care if I am called biased for that. He deserves and needs all the help he can get.


regards


p.s. I am not an auto industry guy. So, If I am wrong on any factual aspects please pardon and point out. But I do have some understanding of mechanics from my work as an orthopaedic surgeon (involving bio-mechanics) and my love of cars and reading about their engineering.

[nav2111]

Originally Posted by androdev

Though I have seen complaint threads affecting individual consumer, etc. on this forum and appreciated the role of team-bhp, this is the first time I am seeing a thread that has far greater significance to consumers at large and has the potential to make manufacturers more accountable.

This very thought has been developing in my mind as I have watched this thread has progressed. To say that the state of consumer protection in India is bad would be a gross understatement. Absent these protections manufacturers across industries will try to increase their bottom line any way possible. Just look at auto companies pushing out cars with OVRMs only on one side. Cost cutting for them could be very expensive for someone else. Some will say that its the consumers choice to buy such cars or not. To that I say if consumers always made the smart decisions they wouldn't need protection and a lot of companies/products would not be on the market right now.

A lot of folks here pointed out the popularity of this thread on the forum. Even Mahindra has recognised the traction this thread has gained and yet we have till date not seen a single response from a governmental body. What does that tell us? Had this happened in a country with systems in place for these type of events, an autonomous investigative agency would have already started a probe simply based on this thread/media reports and the concerned manufacturer would be choking on their you know what!

So yes I see this as an opportunity. They way that Arvindji has behaved in light of what he is facing is amazingly brave. I could not do that. The airbags did not deploy that is an indisputable fact. Obviously Arvindji the consumer will blame the manufacturer, wouldn't you? At the same time, the manufacturer will obviously try to wash their hands of any wrongdoings. And this will happen even when neither side has all the facts. We NEED AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIVE AGENCY. If we can regulate alcohol and tobacco. If we can regulate firearms and pharmaceuticals then why can't we regulate the safety aspects of automobiles?

I think(not sure) somewhere in this thread Arvindji has said that through this fight he also wants to help/protect other car owners. Either way, it would really be ideal if a prominent lawyer takes up this case, proves that we have a broken system and maybe something comes from it. I remember Waseenji from Drive without borders did something similar after the stone throwing incident involving a convoy of cars in Leh.

Also, Arvindji if you or Madhav's friends can look into the idea of starting a crowdfunding campaign for the legal battle that you will eventually end up fighting. Not only will it help financially but will also be a good measure of the public support you have. I for sure will donate to your legal fund.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by androdev

Why is it so hard for people to see that OP wants an independent probe and won't settle for anything less? Why is everyone trying to play the judge and in such a great rush to get a closure on this? The name of the manufacturer or the name of the car are irrelevant. Can a consumer have the RIGHT to an independent investigation when something as devastating as this happens?

I completely agree! I don’t see this as a witch-hunt against Mahindra (as a few members are implying); our reaction would have been same whether it’s a Hyundai, Toyota or a Mercedes.

[PetrolRider]

Dear Mr. Arvind, my prayers are with Madhav and your family. I hope, he recovers to be a fit and fine young man again.

Dear Bhpians,

First comes the declaration. I or no one in my immediate family are associated with Mahindra automotive division nor we are related to OP.

Mr. Arvind is a helpless father whose son is fighting for his health due to an unfortunate road accident. Being emotional is a perfect state of mind for any human being at his place. People loses cool when their service centers do not clean their car properly, where Mr. Arvind has his son in stake. Can't we be a little empathetic here? After all we are humans.

XUV is the flagship product for Mahindra, it is their identity and brand value. They are of-course expected to be protective about it. Every single day and post on this forum is a brand negativity for them, which is why they would want to wrap this off (typical corporate lingo) ASAP and move on.

We on other hand are spectators with / without any interest on the outcome. So, what can we do to resolve this? Blame OP for being emotional or convince ourselves against Mahindra. I think, we can do much better than that.

After following this thread from day 1, I would say OP faced much of wrath for not being prompt on replying to members. I understand, he is preoccupied. Can we have some BHPian volunteers here from OP' locality who can coordinate with him on personal level and post / answer here on his behalf? Mr. Arvind doesn't trust Mahindra, but I don't see any reason for him not trusting any BHPian brothers/sisters. This is not new to T-BHP and we have seen in past where other BHPians have posted on behalf of OP for various issues. This will help us to get facts from OP' side without the emotion factor and members would have their questions answered.

Coming back to GTO' suggestion for talk, I couldn't agree more. I hope, I am not crossing the border here, but may I suggest the Moderators of T-BHP or any esteemed member or group of members who may deemed fit to take the lead here and mediate a talk between OP and Mahindra? T-BHP has established itself as the most impartial forum of automobile sector, which I believe makes them best candidate for this kind of task. Of-course, this is just an observation from my side. I am not sure if T-BHP ground rules are against such type of job and of-curse, all parties including OP, Mahindra and most importantly T-BHP moderators agrees and sees sense to this.