[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

The Root Cause Analysis, if triggered by the Company Top Management (TOP DOWN), need not be contingent on the evaluation of just one vehicle.

Originally Posted by VKumar

On the point of giving car's access to Mahindra:
What's wrong in giving the access to an independent third party? When Mahindra is asking for Arvind to co-operate, they can also do the same and help him in this process. Both parties can sit together and discuss the possibilities, I won't employ a cat to protect my milk bowl, will you?

Everyone here agrees that we are in an impasse. Where we disagree is that what is the root cause for this and who is responsible and who is accountable for the next steps.
Arvind may be responsible to take the case forward (at a time, place and pace of his choice) but the accountability to resolve the issue lies with the manufacturer.

There is a thread somewhere else on this forum which talks about organised insurance fraud. the OP there had held onto Form 29 (as far as I remember) which saved the day for him. If he had passed it on, there was no chance for him to get resolution.

For me, the core issues are those of intent and trust about that intent. Normally we see that in such issues, the intent is not to resolve the issue or provide a solution but to prove the complainant wrong. Either by bringing in some obscure data points or lingo by legal eagles. This unfortunately (valid or not is another topic) is the general perception that people have of corporates.

Even before we consider the other critical higher priority issues with the OP, he has every right to not blindly follow the intent of a tweet or official email. It won't take long for someone to find a loophole that will render the entire case defenceless.
We can all point out to the ongoing issues faced by court cases by Suhas Manjunath/ Harish/ others in this very forum.

If the OP continues to stall anything that he does not trust, I would neither grudge nor judge that. May no one be caught in such a situation, but any of us would logically do the same.

Best wishes to Madhav for a complete recovery. I look forward to meeting him on one of the bhpian meets when he does that.

[Jeevith]

Originally Posted by risham

Sir, Has Mahindra accepted that the product failed? I could not find that in the thread or Mahindra's reply. I would be grateful if you could please quote the relevant portion for me.

Because if they accept the liability that the product failed it is a big step forward and actually the first essential step. As only after accepting our shortcomings can we start the process of rectifying them for future begin.

There's a difference between accepting liability for product failure, and merely acknowledging that the airbags didn't deploy. Trust this clarifies and needs no further explanation.

Originally Posted by roy_libran

The Root Cause Analysis, if triggered by the Company Top Management (TOP DOWN), need not be contingent on the evaluation of just one vehicle.
They can very well (if not already) commence -
- a third party audit of the design
- they can review other manufacturer vehicles' to understand how those are designed and why they operate as intended in a wider range of scenarios
- and can data-mine any patterns emerging from the plethora of crash data that they would have inherently collected from a multitude of accidents where airbags did and did not deploy

The above steps (and maybe few more) can lead them to what their design gap is, which can then be extrapolated with this particular crash data to see whether or not bridging that design/quality gap would have helped in this particular instance. This last step is where they actually need access. Basing their review solely on this vehicle would only lead to a partial, and potentially deficient solution (if any).

Novel idea (I sincerely mean this). I'm inclined to agree with you as this is an actual and constructive exercise that might result in improvement of the product. Though chronologically speaking, IMHO data from this incident (however obtained, in this case even from an independent third party considering the apprehensions involved) should be the starting point considering this incident is what will be prompting the the audit.

Originally Posted by VKumar

Dear Jeevith, I am sure that you got me wrong, hence let me help you by quoting myself byt putting a few words in bold. I hope it will clear the picture:
you ought to be joking man, let me help you again by re-quoting myself. I hope this clears the picture.

P.S., I did read the entirety of your post and chose to emphasize on your usage of the word over-engineered. To elaborate further, airbags are engineered with the intention of deploying in instances where their deployment does more good than they would do harm. To paraphrase from a US consumer affairs website

"Since the late 1990s, the effort has been to reduce the instances of airbag deployment, not increase them. The reason is airbags -- while they can save your life in a head-on crash -- can just as easily kill or injure you if they deploy under other circumstances. "

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news...eployment.html

Originally Posted by VKumar

Aha, let me make yet another correction, that's 0.01% sirji!

Hope I'm not being too rude here (I probably am, and apologies in advance), but if you're being so smug at least make sure you're right before correcting someone:

1 out of 1000 is 0.1 %.

To illustrate sequentially 1 out of 10 is 10%, 1 out 100 is 1 %, 1 out 1000 is 0.1 % and lastly 1 out 10,000 is 0.01 %.

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by VKumar

On the point of giving car's access to Mahindra:
What's wrong in giving the access to an independent third party? When Mahindra is asking for Arvind to co-operate, they can also do the same and help him in this process. Both parties can sit together and discuss the possibilities, I won't employ a cat to protect my milk bowl, will you?

What is an independent third party? An independent third party could be a government agency - not funded by auto companies - which does not exist in India. Now, an investigation by Mahindra is not independent, that we can agree on. However, on the other hand, why would Mahindra accept an investigation by a third party paid for by the OP as independent? A joint investigation by experts from both sides seems to be a good compromise to me.

[ramkya1]

Originally Posted by arvindb4

I am really touched. Yes you are right. We are facing these challenges everyday. I feel sad and helpless but we have to endear it in a positive spirit. I hope one day when Madhav is fine he can take over the cause and the voice for everyone.
God Bless

Wishing Madhav all the best & fast recovery. I can understand the pain & helplessness you are going through, my son had a fall from 2nd floor, 12 years ago, was bleeding from ears! He was playing with others, stairs were not blocked, no handrails, big builder at Bhilwara. Nobody would register a case, even hospital was reluctant... Until builder appeared, then CT scan was opened at 11 at night, Neuro Dr. appeared & 2 units of blood was transfused, rushed him to SAL hospital, Ahmedabad, now he is 22 & OK, just to give a peek to my perspective! I was feeling so helpless, frustrated & angry! Sincerely wish your Son the best, God works in mysterious ways, he will, for your son!

I've been using M&M for 13 years, 2 Scorpios & now XUV. I've slammed them for mistakes, not a fan boy, my posts are here. But they have been relatively more transparent, from what l have experienced. My experiences may be singular & personal.

I'm appalled, in your case, why things are taking so long to go to next stage. I can understand, manufacturers stonewalling but not wanting to get bad press in a fiercely competitive market place.

So, wondering (me & many friendly gear heads have been discussing your case) what's the delay in legal action from your end? Please excuse, if this comes out as direct and insensitive, not the intention at all. I understand the need to tread slowly, collect evidence etc., but your case will get the benefit of doubt in your favour, lMO. If all facts are on the table, then it's best to go the legal way, ASAP.

Following keenly!

[volkman10]

Originally Posted by ramkya1

So, wondering (me & many friendly gear heads have been discussing your case) what's the delay in legal action from your end? Please excuse, if this comes out as direct and insensitive, not the intention at all.

It is very simple if you have followed this thread in totality. Arvind's top most priority is attending to Madhav, all the rest can wait!

[M35]

Originally Posted by ramkya1

I've been using M&M for 13 years, 2 Scorpios & now XUV. I've slammed them for mistakes, not a fan boy, my posts are here. But they have been relatively more transparent, from what l have experienced. My experiences may be singular & personal.

Getting those erratic ABS sensors and cheap suspension/electronic components replaced, every single time you made an escalation, under goodwill warranty is one thing. The case in question here is totally different; the car got met with an accident and the belted (Primary Restraint System) driver sustained serious head injuries. The car was equipped with frontal and side airbags. Air bags are meant to reduce the chance that your upper body or head will strike the vehicle's interior during a crash. Here none of the airbags got deployed and Madhav is fighting hard for his health and normalcy. Hope you get the drift.

My prayers for Madhav and he will get there eventually.

P.S: I have had a Scorpio for 7 years and I too hail from Palakkad.

[fine69]

What really is going to happen even if a third-party agency from outside India says that the airbag should have deployed?

I'm certain Mahindra would challenge that conclusion and have their own set of arguments. Its only fair for the other party to present their side of the story, however crooked they may be.

Eventually, if OP & Mahindra are going to land up in court then we all know that its going to be a long battle with OP losing out on a lot of money and even if the verdict is in OP's favour, and that's a BIG if, the time, money & effort already gone chasing justice may not be worth it.

The other more optimistic scenario would be that the court says Mahindra was at fault and needs to stop production of this airbag faulty XUV 5OO (I know what I'm saying but lets assume even if this was to happen), what's next?

They will award OP compensation, Mahindra will tweak the airbag related stuff a little and still roll out XUV. May be they will call it ZUV this time.

Isn't that the reason GTO suggested that OP & Mahindra need to sit across and talk out the best solution considering all aspects.

I cannot imagine what I would have done if something similar was to happen to a loved one but once you take stock of reality around you, its only sensible to be practical.

Please don't bash me for saying this but in our country its better to seek practical justice (call it compensation or apology or whatever) than justice (which would only be a certain version of justice but never 'shut this manufacturer's shop' kind of justice).

[ramkya1]

Originally Posted by M35

Getting those erratic ABS sensors and cheap suspension/electronic components replaced, every single time you made an escalation, under goodwill warranty is one thing. The case in question here is totally different; the car got met with an accident and the belted (Primary Restraint System) driver sustained serious head injuries. The car was equipped with frontal and side airbags. Air bags are meant to reduce the chance that your upper body or head will strike the vehicle's interior during a crash. Here none of the airbags got deployed and Madhav is fighting hard for his health and normalcy. Hope you get the drift.

My prayers for Madhav and he will get there eventually.

P.S: I have had a Scorpio for 7 years and I too hail from Palakkad.

I'm choosing to ignore most non-relevant portions.

I got the drift, meaning, l understand the situation. My question was "the delay in proceeding with legal options" notwithstanding the circumstances. The 2 core issues here, lMO are:

1) What's best for Madhav. The parents decide what's best.

2)Uderstanding what really happened & why?
Parents & M&M, jointly can, if they decide to do so. Individually, both parties can & should, ASAP, for many reasons. That was the objective of my query! Since this is already in the public domain, the truth needs to be exposed.

Me, as a customer (like many others) want to know why Airbags did not deploy? The truth, if at all it comes out, would help a lot of decisions.

[ajaycherian]

Wishing Madhav a quick and complete recovery.

As a car owner/user and an XUV500 owner, I would also like to know what really happened in the crash and why the airbags were not deployed. This requires real facts, investigation, reconstruction, testing, remedial action, etc.

If it’s to do with the car being at fault, the manufacturer should identify the outlier, if any, and work towards resolving it.



Without an effective regulator in this area in our country, it is difficult to enforce investigations/remediation but manufacturers like M&M are having global ambitions, and hopefully work towards closing gaps in their engineering, if any. Regulations in developed countries are tougher, so eventually they would have to act. Knowing there is a defect and not acted on it, is different to not knowing it (in any part of the world).

If it is any other situation, it would be an eye opener for all of us to avoid in future, which ever car it is.

The accident has happened, and we cannot reset the situation, but what an esteemed forum like team-bhp can do, is to help people make better decisions based on real facts and not based on hypothesis.

[M35]

Originally Posted by ramkya1

My question was "the delay in proceeding with legal options" notwithstanding the circumstances.

You being an XUV owner yourself, I understand your concern. But OP’s first priority is his son at the moment. A government watchdog would have taken care of the situation for the customer. Unfortunately it is non-existent in our country.

Originally Posted by ramkya1

Me, as a customer (like many others) want to know why Airbags did not deploy? The truth, if at all it comes out, would help a lot of decisions.

Decision making, for an existing customer is tough. For a prospective buyer like me, it is a no brainer. Not based on any speculation, but the very fact that the airbags failed to deploy and the unfortunate happened. An investigation report is nice to have though and it is up to the manufacturer now to take the lead and come out with their findings. I hope they make an appointment with OP and sent a representative and then take it from there.

BTW, is there any air bag ON-OFF switch on XUV ?

[roy_libran]

Agree! Right now a lot of potential buyers and some existing owners, are looking at Mahindra, to tell us -
- NOT why the airbags didn’t work as advertised in this instance,
- BUT WHY we can depend upon them to work as advertised in the future

What has happened with Madhav has happened, and any redress or remedy will only provide partial relief or solace.

The imperative for Mahindra is to prevent a repeat and win back our lost trust, and this is the BASIC CONCERN that Mahindra’s entire PR machinery and Sr. Mgmt.(sic) haven’t yet latched on to. They have to prove that their products are dependable.

I had a Scorpio 4WD S4+ till two weeks back, and I shudder to think if that product had failed me as drastically...

[SDP]

Request to members:

No more off-topic posts please.

Regards
Team-BHP Support

[arvindb4]

We are gullible customers. We believe everything to be true. But that's human nature too. We WANT to believe.
I am sure at the end of my journey, many skeletons shall roll. Beliefs will be shaken and adjusting to facts won't be easy.
No this can't be true shall resonate amongst many.
While as consumers we are taken for a ride everyday. I do hope to invite you to the roller coaster of blatant truth and nerve wracking lies on how we get carried away on words and marketing gimmicks. And how we want to believe that we were not conned.
You will have to be patient.
We all have stressed our brains always pre supposing our opinions were based on the basic premise that, everything stemmed from the truth and technology was in place. .
It's like believing on a sky dive that the emergency chute is for granted and it shall open just when you needed it.... and you discussed it and research on it, even before you signed up for the jump and assumed it to be the gospel truth. If It doesn't open it won't say that you didn't tug it hard enough and.....
What if you tugged it hard and hard and discovered that the chute was never there in the first place.
You were made to believe that only tugging hard shall save you if it doesn't open on its own and as expected.
After that you plunge.

[akshay380]

Originally Posted by arvindb4

We are gullible customers. We believe everything to be true. But that's human nature too. We WANT to believe.
I am sure at the end of my journey, many skeletons shall roll. Beliefs will be shaken and adjusting to facts won't be easy.
No this can't be true shall resonate amongst many.
While as consumers we are taken for a ride everyday. I do hope to invite you to the roller coaster of blatant truth and nerve wracking lies on how we get carried away on words and marketing gimmicks. And how we want to believe that we were not conned.
You will have to be patient.

I had hoped along with such brilliant wordplay you will attach couple of communications you had with M&M proving their unethical behaviour.

[samaspire]

I would not expect any such thing from Arvind now.

My guess is, lawyers are already involved and posting any documents related to the case here, would not be possible anymore. Heck, he would even have to be very careful about the words that he puts up here.