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30th June 2021, 16:11 | #136 | |||||||
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car Quote:
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Now one may argue that the Thar's ODB test score is a fair bit lower than that required for 5 stars. Remember how I mentioned earlier that many 4-star cars lose out on the minimum 14/16 in the ODB test because of the knee modifiers? I have a feeling Mahindra planned to conduct a verification sled test for having the knee modifiers removed, but couldn't do so because Global NCAP will not accept knee mapping data if an unstable footwell modifier has been applied. Hence the cumulative effect of the driver knee modifiers and the unstable footwell modifier brought down the score a fair bit. Tata and Mahindra's latest tested vehicles, the Tigor and the Thar, both have structural modifiers applied and hence would not qualify for removal of knee modifiers (though Tata and Mahindra obviously know the process to have them removed). Just as well, since Global NCAP wouldn't want a car with an unstable structure/footwell scoring the 5th star. Quote:
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I'm quite surprised that Tata hasn't sponsored an ESC test for the Nexon yet, even after they've made the system standard across all trims. | |||||||
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30th June 2021, 20:47 | #137 | |||||||||
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car Quote:
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I have a different take about Skoda's approach though. For the developed nations, 4-star is a rarity in the sense that most results are 5-star, as you have rightly said and pointed out in your examples. However, in India, a 4-star is a rarity for the entirely opposite reason, so 4-star and above is currently a plus in my book, especially in context of the Indian market, because the Indian consumer (largely the casual buyer, which is the majority) isn't very concerned or even aware about crash ratings. This is from personal experience, be it friends, or family. Crash rating is simply not a priority for the market, so I'll take any 4-star and above result I can get, precisely because the market for that very rating is minuscule. In fact, I fear that if the government compliance norms do not evolve with time (to their credit, ABS & two airbags as standard is a very welcome move), we may have a scenario where the current buzz dies out, and manufacturers making affordable safe cars go out of business because prioritising safety clearly wasn't in line with the market demands of that time. However, if and when 4-star becomes commonplace enough, I would love a push towards 5-star products. I can understand the disappointment though. Skoda being an international player, already has experience with even more stringent norms, yet isn't able to compete with homegrown products from a segment below— brands with significantly lesser international presence. But when I assess this in the context of the only tested rival being barely 3-star, I can't help but look on the bright side. Quote:
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Last edited by rpm : 30th June 2021 at 20:57. | |||||||||
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30th June 2021, 22:06 | #138 | ||
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car Quote:
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Here's something to ponder: the rival you mentioned scored 8.03 including the full SBR point (head, neck and chest were all orange, yellow or green thus qualifying for the mark-up for SBR). That would mean that the ODB test score is 7.03 out of 16 which should effectively place it in the 2-star category, unless the SBR points were not included in the evaluation for some reason (no mention in the PDF). I wonder why this is. This was a very interesting conversation, and I'd like to thank you for the insightful information you provided, however I believe we have already far exceeded the maximum we can go off-topic on this thread. We'll continue this discussion on a new thread or avail of the direct-message feature, when the next round of #SaferCarsForIndia results come out. If rumour has it right, they will include the Renault Kiger (and hopefully more). Thank you once again and stay safe. Last edited by ron178 : 30th June 2021 at 22:36. Reason: Spelling | ||
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1st July 2021, 21:23 | #139 |
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car There is another possibility that hasn't been considered. Both the 4 star and 5 star versions of the Nexon were crash tested but they didn't bother to film and edit the 2nd test to save cash or because it was a visually minor difference or short time gap between tests or whatever and just ended up reusing the old video with slight color changes and edits. |
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3rd July 2021, 10:56 | #140 | |
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car Quote:
This code thingy could have been a fault of the chaps handling the YouTube channel. I believe they used the same thumbnail for both the videos whereas the cars were different (i.e. with different codes), correct me if I'm wrong. | |
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3rd July 2021, 16:04 | #141 | ||||
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car
I'll try to address as many points as I can in your speculation. Quote:
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Your speculation about saving money on editing it for a YouTube video may stand, but the part about not filming it altogether seems difficult to buy into. Besides, even if the difference in footage was minor, as you say, they could at least have put the picture of the new Nexon (with the new code) undergoing the ODB test in their crash result pdf, or on their site. I assume that wouldn't need too much money to edit and include in the pdf or on their site when they probably would have already captured slowed down frames for assessing the vehicle in the hypothetical case of a new ODB test being conducted. Quote:
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In this context, if I were to believe a slightly modified version of your speculation that the YouTube guy responsible for the GNCAP channel messed up and used the exact same clip (instead of the thumbnail— your original assumption) for both the tests, I would then also have to believe that the one who made the crash result pdf also messed up and used the wrong image, and so did the guy who uploaded the result to their site. I would again like to reiterate that I'm not suggesting that the 5-star Nexon is actually 4-star. The only thing I'm alluding to, is the possibility of no ODB test being conducted for the 5-star Nexon. ron178's speculation includes an extra layer of no chassis changes being made to the Nexon, citing the provision for removal of knee modifiers without a crash test. Even then, he considers the possibility of changes being made to the dashboard. Of course, only Tata and GNCAP would know whether the cars from VIN MAT627165JLP51255 onwards entail structural changes or dashboard changes or just the addition of passenger SBR. None of us is suggesting that the 5-star rating awarded to the pre-facelift Nexon is wrong/incorrect/biased. Thanks to ron178's post, which documents the provision of a sled test for removing knee modifiers, provided that no structural modifiers (read body-shell integrity unstable, footwell rupture) have been applied, and no frontal protection airbag deploys incorrectly. If the provision for such a correction exists in the protocol, it is not wrong for the manufacturer to avail it to their benefit, especially since it is subject to being accepted by GNCAP, who, in turn, will only accept it if they are reasonably satisfied with the manufacturer's demonstration. With all that being said, I would also like to reiterate that this is a speculation, because there is no way to confirm anything without GNCAP's or Tata's acknowledgement. By that logic, it would also apply to any speculation of a new Nexon with chassis changes being sent to the crash test, despite there being no video or photo evidence of the same being done. I and ron178 have tried our best to include all possible evidence to give some credibility to our speculation. It would help if members disagreeing with the speculation point out flaws in our interpretation and/or the evidence presented to make our case, which roughly translates to the interpretation of the code, evidence of the same clip being used for 5-star Nexon's ODB test, and the provision for removal of knee modifiers without a crash test. In the end, agreeing or disagreeing with the speculation is entirely upto the reader. | ||||
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4th July 2021, 00:13 | #142 |
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car Good points @rpm. I was just speculating and trying to provide an alternate explanation. The easiest way to clear this up is to email them or post on their twitter feed |
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26th July 2021, 20:33 | #143 | ||
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car Quote:
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SBR points are indeed included in the evaluation. The scores printed in the grading table in the protocol are including any SBR points scored. This explains why the Renault Triber, the airbag-equipped Tata Zest and the Kia Seltos scored 4 stars despite their ODB test scores being in the 3-star, 3-star and 2-star categories respectively. So the Seltos, if tested before seatbelt reminders were mandatory, would be a 2-star car. Scary. This could also imply that, say, the Ford Aspire (10.49) could be rated 4 stars when equipped with the government-mandated seatbelt reminders (assuming they meet Global NCAP requirements). I'm not sure if there are any other cars just bubbling under the 11.00-point mark that were tested without seatbelt reminders before they were made mandatory. I think what the table should read is (including SBR points): 14.00 – 17.00 points (including 1 point SBR, no less) + 4ch ABS + ECE95* 5 stars 11.00 – 13.99 points 4 stars 8.00 – 10.99 points 3 stars 5.00 – 7.99 points 2 stars 2.00 – 4.99 points 1 star 0.00 – 1.99 points 0 stars I'm still a bit unsure whether 5 stars requires 14.00 points including the SBR points or not. That is, if a vehicle crossed 14.00 points including 1 SBR point, would it be rated 5 stars? I'm led to think our old assumption regarding this was correct (14.00 without SBR). The culprit? The South African Honda Amaze, yet again. It scored 14.08 points with driver SBR. Now the 4-star rating could also be due to the full SBR point not being scored, but I think that if scoring the extra 0.50 passenger SBR point would mean a 5-star rating (after an MDB test of course), then Honda would have gone ahead and made it standard in South Africa because it's a small cost to pay for the publicity of a 5-star rating. Whether they were unsure of the MDB test result is not for me to say, though. Last edited by ron178 : 26th July 2021 at 20:40. | ||
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27th July 2021, 02:21 | #144 | ||||
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car Quote:
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Now, this Creta scored an impressive 15.57/17 which is quite a bit more than the bare minimum threshold of 15.00/17 (including SBR) we had established earlier. The reason it still didn't get a full 5 star in AOP is because 1. It did not have passenger SBR, as evident from the pdf. 2. No side impact test was conducted, as specified by the pdf. This Creta far exceeds the 14.00/16 threshold for ODB test, since deducting 0.5 points (for driver SBR) from its overall of 15.57, still leaves it with an impressive 15.07 for the ODB test. It just needed passenger SBR and side impact compliance, yet Hyundai chose not to sponsor further testing and/or add passenger SBR. This is despite the fact that NCAPs intimate manufacturers (according to protocol) of the result before they are released to the public, to allow manufacturers a chance to improve the crash rating of their product. From this, I conclude that 1 point SBR, side impact compliance, 4 channel ABS, and ODB ≥ 14.00/16 are all mandatory requirements for a 5-star rating. If the car doesn't comply with all of these, the 5-star rating will not be awarded under the current protocol. Here are the relevant parts of the latin NCAP protocol from back then. In case you're wondering how am I sure that this protocol pdf from 2013 is the correct one, it's because from 2016 onwards, they started assessing AOP from a total of 34 points. | ||||
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27th July 2021, 13:58 | #145 | |||||||
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car Quote:
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Anyway, I'm getting a bit confused about the scoring protocol. I'm personally convinced now that Global NCAP does not involve in unfair practice (which was the reason I started this analysis of the test protocol anyway). However I have realised that reading the ratings isn't as simple as the star rating itself. Some cars with the same star rating under the same protocol (almost completely based on frontal impact) aren't equally crashworthy. I still have a few questions, and by this point I'm sure I must seem crazy for bothering so much about something trivial. Quote:
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Now look at the Datsun redi-Go and the Renault Kwid (IV). Both have red chests. Their scores are actually in the 3-star region but it has been reduced to 1-star, presumably under this provision in Section 3.3 Scoring and Visualisation, under the aforementioned point-star table. Now according to the provision for capping limits for the chest (identical to the limit for a red chest) doesn't this mean that both these cars should have scored a neat 0.00 for the test since a critical body region passes its capping limit? Quote:
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Head and Neck: Worst Performing Region: Passenger Neck: 0.000 Chest: Worst Performing Region: Driver Chest: 0.000 Knee and Femur: Worst Performing Region: Driver (one of them - I don't have the actual test values): non-zero Leg and Foot: Driver right tibia Modifiers: Unstable Structure applied on 'Chest': Chest score remains 0.000 Unstable Footwell Applied on 'Leg and Foot': score reduces further Variable Contact/Concentrated Loading on knees: 'Knee, femur and pelvis' score reduces further. Capping limits exceeded: Yes, driver chest and passenger neck. Test score 0.00 Let's do the same for, say, a Datsun redi-Go: Now, let's try getting a qualitative score for the S-Presso Head and Neck: Worst Performing Region: Driver Head: non-zero Chest: Worst Performing Region: Driver Chest: 0.000 Knee and Femur: Worst Performing Region: Driver (one of them - I don't have the actual test values): non-zero Leg and Foot: Has to be driver since this isn't currently assessed for the passenger. Modifiers: Unstable Structure applied on 'Chest': Chest score remains 0.000 Unstable Footwell Applied on 'Leg and Foot': score reduces further Variable Contact/Concentrated Loading on knees: 'Knee, femur and pelvis' score reduces further. Capping limits exceeded: Yes, driver chest. Test score 0.00? Assuming that capping limits are not valid, the Go's score would be restricted to one star (which it is) due to a body region scoring red, whether or not it is a critical body region or not. In that scenario, the Datsun redi-Go has its fair share of non-zero body regions that can take its score to 8.36. What I want to ask is, have I misunderstood the meaning of capping limits? They seem to play no role at all. The S-Presso's score might be 0.00 after modifiers regardless of capping limits because other regions were poorly protected and might have been reduced to 0.000 after modifiers. But the VW Polo without airbags that I quoted earlier has scored better than the S-Presso for regions other than the head+neck and chest (where they are identical). In fact, it scores 5.42 points. Using the Datsun Go's logic, shouldn't the score be one star? It lies in the 2-star region but due to red body parts (here, critical, but assuming that it doesn't matter whether the red part is critical or not like in the Datsun Go) it should be limited to one star. Why, then is it 0 stars? Am I missing some crucial provision of the protocol? An argument one might make is that cars without airbags score 0 regardless of injury measures. A quick look at older LatinNCAP results on the same protocol like this one disproves this. In fact, the tested Palio too had a red head but its score was in the 1-star region and that's what it got. I'll take a look at some older LatinNCAP results sometime to check out different cases of scores around 14.00 to answer the question you posed. I'm fairly convinced that your conclusion is correct though. Thanks again for your time. Last edited by ron178 : 27th July 2021 at 14:12. Reason: Incorrect number of significant figures for individual body regions. | |||||||
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27th July 2021, 17:36 | #146 | ||
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car I'll be addressing the ODB score dilemma in this post, because I'll have to do quite a bit more reading to wrap my head around capping limits and scoring criteria.
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So, here we have some results in the 14.xx/17 category, and surprisingly, only one of them is a 4-star (because SBR didn't meet Latin NCAP requirements, and ECE95 wasn't conducted). Rest of them are 5-star despite scoring 14.xx/17 points, because they had SBR which complied with Latin NCAP standards, and they passed ECE95 as well. From this, we can reasonably conclude that the 14.00 point threshold includes SBR score. A car with 13.00/16 ODB score can still get a 5-star rating, provided it scores a perfect 1 point for SBR, and passes ECE95 test, in addition to having 4 channel ABS. I would once again like to apologise for rushing to a conclusion. Not at all. You are asking those questions which none of us here had even contemplated. You helped solve the code and Nexon's mystery too. I think your contribution to this forum is invaluable. Please keep asking. If not me, some other BHPian better versed in this topic could offer you an interesting discussion, and possibly, a resolution. I too, will try and add to the discussion, if I'm able to figure out the questions you've asked. Thanks to you, we have (hopefully) resolved the ODB score dilemma too. Last edited by Aditya : 27th July 2021 at 22:47. Reason: Typo | ||
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27th July 2021, 19:02 | #147 | |||
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car Quote:
One, even if the remote possibility that two different Nexons were tested is true, the first one still becomes a 5-star car if it passes UNECE Regulation 95 and is equipped with a passenger-side seatbelt reminder. I wonder why Tata bothered having the knee modifiers removed then. the Nexon would have scored 5 stars (though by a very small margin) even with the modifiers applied. I'm not complaining, though - there's nothing wrong with having the modifiers removed but it's an added expenditure but not much gain since the masses normally don't look beyond the star rating - something Euro NCAP and ANCAP are being criticised for of late. Secondly, that means a few more cars than we thought have crossed the minimum ODB score for 5 stars. The Toyota Etios Liva and the South African Honda Amaze come to mind. However, they have unproven side impact protection and poor side impact equipment so I won't jump to any conclusions. I'm already quite mad at Honda for providing a poor level of safety equipment (no ESC and not even thorax airbags as an option unlike the City which has them standard-fit) in an otherwise probably structurally sound car (I hold no responsibility for my statement if the Indian Amaze scores worse than the South African car). I think I now get why Global NCAP said that the South African Toyota Avanza 'just managed' 4 stars (11.57 including 1 point SBR) while the South African Honda Amaze 'scored a solid four stars' (14.08 including 0.5 point SBR) for adult occupant protection. Also, please don't take my fixating on the Amaze's test as fanboyism or anything of the sort, it's just that the brand lies in unknown territory despite being among the first to make airbags and ABS standard (a move they reversed with the Brio). The Mobilio didn't do too well but it was a cost-cut car anyway, and the 2008 City and Jazz that had standard airbags were never tested, so I'm very curious. Another noteworthy point is that while the Indian Toyota Etios Liva scored 13.00 points (no SBR) (just 0.06 less than the Nexon), reaching the bare minimum ODB score for the 5th star, the South African car of identical specification scored 11.58 (no SBR) which is notably less and would not qualify for the 5th star even if other requirements were met. I agree, but what I like about LatinNCAP's (and ASEAN NCAP's - though the rest of it is terrible) website is that the stars are sorted by colour for different protocol. I hope Global NCAP does this in India next year with the new protocol since I'm sure there'll be a few cars with very poor ratings and there will be people comparing the stars with older ones directly. Quote: Quote:
Honestly, I don't think anyone on the forum so far will have seen Global NCAP results with the depth that you have, at least not that I know of. I was elated when I saw your first post confirming that I wasn't the only one who had noticed the discrepancy in the Nexon's scores. Thanks once again for your patience and help. Last edited by ron178 : 27th July 2021 at 19:30. | |||
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29th July 2021, 02:42 | #148 | ||||||||||
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car Quote:
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I agree that there is a lot more to a crash test than just the star rating. I'll highlight one such example (Skoda Kushaq Review) I've talked about before. Quote:
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Now, coming to capping limits and whether they are relevant at all. The key to understanding this (according to me), lies in the fact that dummy data may be modified. I have a hypothesis about how capping limits work, but I can't be certain about it. So anyways, it appears that there are two ways to arrive at a red coloured body region. 1. By exceeding the capping limit, as you have correctly deduced in your post. 2. When the modifiers applicable to that particular region, match or exceed the points scored for that region. Let's take a look at some examples. First off, we have the Jeep Wrangler. I would like to establish how the scoring for full width frontal test works before we proceed. Bear in mind that this is not something I was able to gauge from the protocol, and neither did the method used for scoring in the ODB test work (worse performing region, be it the driver or passenger, is used for assessment). It could still be wrong, but I have found it to be pretty consistent when calculating the full width frontal test scores. So, what we do here is, we sum the points for each region, for both the driver and the rear passenger, irrespective of who fared worse. Deductions are not subtracted from the score (my hypothesis is that they are already deducted from the relevant body region to arrive at the score for that region. Refer to point 2 for arriving at a red body region I have outlined earlier). We then add the scores for the driver and rear passenger, to get a total out of 32 points, and then divide it by 4 to arrive at the full width frontal test score outlined in the pdf. Alternatively, you could sum each body region for the driver and passenger separately, divide them by 2, then add them to get a total out of 16 points, and then, divide them again by 2 to get a total out of 8 points seen in the pdf. With that out of the way, now let's look at the Jeep Wrangler. You'll observe that the chest of the rear passenger is colored red for the full width frontal test. In the deductions section, you'll see -2 points for shoulder seat belt load. Now this modifier belongs to the chest region, according to ANCAP's protocol Quote:
Now, let's take a look at SsangYong Tivoli's full width frontal test. Here, you will see that the head of the rear dummy is colored red. But what is different here, is that a -16 point modifier has been applied because the values exceeded the capping limits. Here, you'll see the loss of all points related to the test because a critical body region presented a very high risk of life threatening injury. However, full width frontal test seems to grade rear passenger and driver separately, as outlined before, so the points lost were only for the rear passenger score. You'll see that this holds true when arriving at the score for frontal full width test outlined in the pdf, using the method outlined before. Let's take a look at the modifier applied in this particular test. This modifier is included under the Head region. Quote:
I suspect that the head of the rear passenger dummy in the Tivoli exceeded the capping limit for the head region, meaning that it scored red without any modifiers. In such a case, NCAP may decide to strip all the points related to the test. But then, it still leaves why Tivoli got a 4-star rating up for debate. It does help explain (although, rather haphazardly) how and when capping limits work, but the issue of multiple star rating still stands. There is another example of this multiple star rating issue that I found, but it isn't very conclusive (probably because I don't have enough data on it). The Mahindra Pik-up in Australia scored a red head, yet it got 2 stars back in 2011. Now, the protocol back then was different, and not exactly the same as EURO NCAP protocol. I couldn't find much data on the protocol either, since it is very old. However, I did find some interesting bits, though I don't know which version of the ANCAP protocols they apply to. They are taken from the ANCAP site, from a pdf that is titled ANCAP notes on the assessment protocol. With the star rating criteria outlined in the table, the 2-star rating of the Mahindra Pik-up makes sense, because it is above the points threshold for each respective category. Moreover, the last line in the last screenshot could theoretically explain why it could score multiple points despite a critical body region being colored red, although we do not know what the phrase 'some circumstances' in the last line entails. The HIC value given in Mahindra Pik-up's pdf exceeds 1000. I suspect that it may have got a red head without any modifiers (assuming it exceeded the capping limits), but I can't be reasonably sure because I do not have the protocol from back then. I know this isn't a very satisfactory explanation for all your questions, but this is the best I could cobble together with my limited ability to interpret the protocol. It doesn't answer why Polo still got a zero star. Nor does it conclusively answer your doubts about interpreting capping limits. I do, however, hope that you find something useful in here that helps you on your quest to find answers, should you choose to pursue this topic. Also, I'll suggest that you look at ANCAP results too, if you wish to research further. Their pdfs are very detailed, even more so than EURO NCAP's. They offer a lot more data, as you have already witnessed with the Tivoli, Wrangler and Pik-up above. Quote:
Last edited by Aditya : 5th August 2021 at 21:42. Reason: As requested | ||||||||||
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29th July 2021, 08:26 | #149 | ||||||
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In case of that Datsun redi-GO and the fourth Renault Kwid, it's possible that the chest scores were zero only after application of the unstable structure modifier to the chest. Hence, since dummy readings did not actually cross the capping limit, the test score was not reduced to zero. In the case of the Polo, however, it's possible that they simply printed the actual score but gave it zero stars because it crossed capping limits. Sure, it's inconsistent with later results, but it's still fair to the star rating. This means that all zero star cars including the S-Presso had actual biomechanical values (without modifiers) that crossed the capping limits. The Polo and first-gen Figo didn't even have an unstable structure modifier which makes it clear that the biomechanical values themselves crossed capping limits and the score should indeed be zero. Global NCAP reiterated on multiple occasions that it was the S-Presso's neck score that brought it down to zero stars, despite the chest also being coloured red. This could mean that the actual chest compression readings did not cross the capping limits, the chest was red only after the unstable structure modifier. Unfortunately, this also means that the S-Presso would likely still be a one-star car after adding a passenger airbag. Maybe pretensioners could help further, though. To sum up, I think the zero-star cap is based on biomechanical capping limits, and the one-star cap is if a region crosses the lower performance limit after application of modifiers after application of modifiers. However, I now have a new question, I think I should read the rest of your post in detail before asking it, but I'll ask it anyway. Quote:
Edit: ANCAP's decision to award SUVs back then a default 16/16 for side impact does not sound fair. Quote:
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Thanks a lot for the data, it really did help. Last edited by Sheel : 1st August 2021 at 08:46. Reason: Back to back posts. | ||||||
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8th August 2021, 15:58 | #150 | |||
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| Re: Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car Quote:
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So, to answer your query— yes, it is possible for the 4-star Nexon to become a 5-star car with just the addition of passenger SBR, provided that it passes the side impact test. Its overall score would be (13.56 + 0.5 passenger SBR) 14.06/17 in this case, but it would still be a 5-star car nonetheless. ron178's post aptly covers the most probable scenario of the current 5-star Nexon, that is, it had its knee modifiers removed following a sled test which increased its score from 14.06/17 to 16.06/17, but, even if Tata hadn't done that, and just added passenger SBR in addition to passing the side impact test, the Nexon would still get a 5-star rating, albeit with a slightly lower score of 14.06/17. I would again like to apologise for answering your query with incorrect information stemming from my incomplete understanding of the protocol back then. | |||
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