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Old 14th June 2019, 14:08   #16
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

I have recently worked on Airbag projects quite closely and can offer some insight into this area.

The brain of the whole system is the Airbag ECU and this is what decides when the Airbags should be triggered. The Airbag ECU on it's own measures G forces and can detect when a vehicle has crashed.

Technically an Airbag system can work with only the ECU and no crash sensors, however the addition of sensors makes the system more robust. More the number of sensors, more data the ECU has to analyse and make the decision.

Rollover cases are unique in their own way and only the higher end Airbag ECU's can detect rollovers. Most of our cars make use of very basic ECU's which do not support rollover detection and hence I am not surprised at the number of cases we keep seeing of Airbag's not triggering when the vehicle rolls over. I would say the Innova case being discussed here is also due to the same reason.
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Old 14th June 2019, 15:34   #17
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

That was inappropriately sarcastic, my apologies. And of course sympathies to the OP, I'm thankful his family came out safe from that accident.

I think neither Ajmat nor I identified it as a ZX, personally I thought that had much larger tyres.

Last edited by SmartCat : 17th June 2019 at 20:31. Reason: Quoted post has been deleted
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Old 14th June 2019, 18:37   #18
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiat_tarun View Post
I have recently worked on Airbag projects quite closely and can offer some insight into this area.

Rollover cases are unique in their own way and only the higher end Airbag ECU's can detect rollovers. Most of our cars make use of very basic ECU's which do not support rollover detection and hence I am not surprised at the number of cases we keep seeing of Airbag's not triggering when the vehicle rolls over.
That's quite a revelation, so you mean, unless the sensors actually get a direct hit, normal cars like Innova won't able to open the curtain bags? And if you see the pictures posted here, what can be the reason that they worked. I know, it will be difficult to answer just by a couple of pictures but just an educated guess probably?

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-...ml#post4604079 (Pics: Accidents in India)

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
And of course sympathies to the OP, I'm thankful his family came out safe from that accident.
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Old 14th June 2019, 18:43   #19
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

There was another Toyota accident with similar airbag deployment issue
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...-accident.html (Toyota Etios airbags not deployed on accident)
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Old 14th June 2019, 18:55   #20
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
That's quite a revelation, so you mean, unless the sensors actually get a direct hit, normal cars like Innova won't able to open the curtain bags? And if you see the pictures posted here, what can be the reason that they worked. I know, it will be difficult to answer just by a couple of pictures but just an educated guess probably?
...
If the actual crash sensors do not detect a hit, the deceleration rate plays a major role in triggering the ECU to detect a crash. In the first picture, it looks like it was a direct hit against another vehicle or object which would have generated the G forces to trigger the ECU to fire the Airbags.

In the rollover incident, I am not sure whether that front damage occurred during the roll or on impact. I assume it was during the rollover as the deceleration rate would be much slower.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 15th June 2019 at 00:15. Reason: Typo corrected.
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Old 16th June 2019, 14:00   #21
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

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Originally Posted by aasheeshchopra View Post
With Mata Raani's grace and kindness, my two nephews were unharmed and have only a few scratches and slight pain in the chest from the impact, and the driver has a few injuries to the arm, fingers and chest from the impact with the steering wheel and glass from the windows.
Aasheesh, am moving your post to a new thread as this discussion deserves it. Whatever the science behind airbags, if they don't open in such a rollover, I don't know when they will. Glad to hear everyone is safe

Related Threads:

Fortuner crash, no airbags

Poor quality spiral cables used by Toyota?

Toyota to pay 25 lakhs for airbags that didn't deploy

Why didn't my airbags deploy?

Toyota & dealer fined 5 lakh
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Old 16th June 2019, 15:36   #22
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

How many of you will bet your money on a Toyota after reading through the different incidents where no airbags were deployed? I'm guessing, in few years some information will come out saying that there was some technical problems with the airbag deployment of Toyota. I have seen 5 youngsters killed on the spot in a tin can Innova.

It doesn't take much rocket science to understand why Toyota has not sent their Innova for crash testing, Mahindra their XUV, Hyundai their Indian versions. They are damn sure they will get burned. They will crash test only if when it becomes mandatory. TATA has to be respected for following up with Nexon's 4* star rating and getting a 5*.

I for sure will only buy a crash tested car as a next buy. No amount of bragging by salesmen or popularity of the car will sway my decision. The moment most of us decide so, these companies will have no other way but to toe the line. We aren't paying cattle class money for cars in India.

I'm seething with rage reading arm chair experts giving advice about airbags not deploying, is that you will want to happen when you pay close to ₹ 3 million rupees ? For me every ordinary person's life is as precious as the richest person. To end up in death or disability just because some greedy car manufacturers don't bother is unpardonable. In this case it was sheer luck the three survived!
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Old 16th June 2019, 16:07   #23
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Originally Posted by The Rationalist View Post
It doesn't take much rocket science to understand why Toyota has not sent their Innova for crash testing, Mahindra their XUV, Hyundai their Indian versions. They are damn sure they will get burned. They will crash test only if when it becomes mandatory. TATA has to be respected for following up with Nexon's 4* star rating and getting a 5*.
You're forgetting Marazzo and it's 4 star rating.

Last edited by Aditya : 17th June 2019 at 07:40. Reason: Quoted text trimmed
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Old 16th June 2019, 16:16   #24
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

Glad to hear all the occupants are safe, wish they recover to full fitness soon.

Airbags WILL NOT protect you from each and every impact. I think there are too many misconceptions about airbags.

Adding to Rehaan's post-

The purpose of airbags is to protect people from crashes in which the highest % of lives are lost. Statistical studies are done on years to crash data and the two commonly occurring types of fatal crashes:
1. Head-on collisions (frontal airbags)
2. Side-on collisions (side airbags)

Who decided these were the common types of crashes? Well, I guess the IIHS, NHSTA of the USA and similar agencies in the first world did after many statistical studies. Over the years, the first world has also improved infrastructure to minimize accidents- good barriers on the highways, good medians, under-run bars on trucks, etc., With some improvements in signaling and intersection design, US has significantly reduced the number of fatal T-bone crashes. There are many parameters calculated before airbag deployment. This is probably to avoid potential lawsuits.

The problem in our country is that a combination of conditions like non-standard infrastructure and bad driving creates more chances for impacts in different angles. If you want to be protected from each and every type of crash, please drive a military tank.

Coming to the million dollar question- can companies redesign airbags to meet the unique crashes in India? The answer is YES!

Will they? The answer is NO- it costs a lot of money to do a lot of research. And as they say- "Prevention is better than cure." So- improving infrastructure and good driver education is a more cost-effective way to reduce fatalities. It is not that roll-overs don't occur in the US or UK, but they occur far less often.

As a driver, you increase your chances to avoid accidents by driving safely and defensively. Anticipate and drive slowly. Even if you don't make a mistake, there are many other stupid drivers on the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
When the situation isn't clear-cut, manufacturers will err on the side of safety (ie. not deploying the airbags) rather than deploying the airbags and risking more harm (and lawsuits)......
Eg. In a slow roll-over, a wrongly triggered curtain airbag could break an occupants neck...
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Whatever the science behind airbags, if they don't open in such a rollover, I don't know when they will.
@GTO... Please read Rehaan's and my post. Airbag deployment in some cases might be more harmful.

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 16th June 2019 at 16:21.
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Old 16th June 2019, 16:23   #25
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

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Originally Posted by The Rationalist View Post
How many of you will bet your money on a Toyota after reading through the different incidents where no airbags were deployed?
It doesn't take much rocket science to understand why Toyota has not sent their Innova for crash testing, Mahindra their XUV, Hyundai their Indian versions. They are damn sure they will get burned. They will crash test only if when it becomes mandatory.The moment most of us decide so, these companies will have no other way but to toe the line. We aren't paying cattle class money for cars in India.
I think it's already been posted in this forum earlier.The crysta has received a 4star rating from ASEAN ncap and they choose the base variants for all their testing purposes.

The selection criteria
http://www.aseancap.org/v2/?page_id=2941

Last edited by ajmat : 16th June 2019 at 19:12.
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Old 16th June 2019, 16:47   #26
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
I will not agree that these can be more harmful than say non-deployment or not being present. But, these are SRS for a reason & seat belts are the primary saver as in this case.
The point to note in Rehaan's post is 'should trigger ONLY under specific conditions.', which i think is absolutely correct. About 7-8 years back my colleague had a neck fracture, because airbags deployed in has car, when they shouldn't have. It was a case of a mild front end collision at slow speeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiat_tarun View Post
Rollover cases are unique in their own way and only the higher end Airbag ECU's can detect rollovers. Most of our cars make use of very basic ECU's which do not support rollover detection and hence I am not surprised at the number of cases we keep seeing of Airbag's not triggering when the vehicle rolls over. I would say the Innova case being discussed here is also due to the same reason.
Any idea what is the cost differential between the two types of ECUs and what types of cars have the high end ECU?
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Old 16th June 2019, 16:51   #27
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
Don't bother!

There was no frontal impact to trigger the airbag sensors
I don't agree, what's the point of 7 airbags, if only a frontal impact can deploy them? The side airbags are for side impact too.

And from the looks of it, the front bumper from one side is ripped off, that is enough reason for them to deploy.
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Old 16th June 2019, 17:14   #28
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

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Originally Posted by simeonovitch View Post
You're forgetting Marazzo and it's 4 star rating.
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Originally Posted by TSIVTEC View Post
I think it's already been posted in this forum earlier.The crysta has received a 4star rating from ASEAN ncap and they choose the base variants for all their testing purposes.
I specifically mentioned XUV.
ASEAN NCAP tested cars are exactly same as Indian variants? What's your source of information? Why do you think there is a GNCAP if all vehicles made by manufacturers are exactly same as in ASEAN variants? There are lot of changes that is done to Indian variants by most manufacturers, anyone who has been following this forum would know that.

I will rather believe facts than believe what the manufacturer exhorts. For them the objective is to sell, my objective is to find the truth.
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Old 16th June 2019, 17:33   #29
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
Judging by the pictures, the sides never received any impact damage strong enough to trigger the sensor.

The lack of severe injuries and less damage that not correspond to three somersaults presents a weak case
Agreed on both the points. Also in case of a this rollover, the roof seems to have taken the impact. Im not sure whether this car has curtain airbags, a roof collapse/impact could have triggered those.

Basic idea behind safety equipment is to safeguard the occupants from grievous injuries. Fact that the occupants in this accident escaped with minor injuries proves that the vehicle inspite of being involved in a serious crash, managed to save the occupants.

Also OP, have there been any aftermarket accessories installed on the vehicle? Unauthorised installation of accessories can sometimes jeopardise the safety equipment & frees the company from indemnity in case of legal recourse.

Drive safe!
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Old 16th June 2019, 17:38   #30
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

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Originally Posted by The Rationalist View Post
I specifically mentioned XUV.
Why do you think there is a GNCAP if all vehicles made by manufacturers are exactly same as in ASEAN variants?
Yes you did. And I cant, for the love of God, figure out why.
Are you saying that the Nexon is an alternative to Crysta?

Or, are you applauding Tata for getting a 5 star GNCAP car, and ignoring the second safest car on the market (and incidentally, Team-BHP's car off the year) (Marazzo)

Or are you saying that XUV, a car that launched in 2011, should be compared to Nexon, a car launched in 2017. That its not plausible that manufacturers move on.

And just FYI, the Marazzo got 4 star GNCAP.
https://auto.ndtv.com/news/mahindra-...l-ncap-1959184
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