[ajmat]

Originally Posted by dinesh17

Airbag sensor doesn't have to be crushed or impacted in order to be triggered. They work on very simple physics, sudden deceleration causes a suspended ball to close a circuit which then triggers air bag deploy. Upon hard deceleration the suspended ball has enough inertia to push the metal contacts which then to closes the circuit. For this to happen, the sensor doesn't has to be part of the impact, it just needs to decelerate along with the car.

Fair enough!

I still have some reservations on the actual impact speed and doubts whether the car somersaulted 3 times.

Also like I mentioned, the safety systems did their bit without needing to summon the supplementary safety systems.

Let an expert enquiry figure this out.

[sreejith1830]

The toyota innova is frankly way overpriced in India. I believe the service cost has also gone up in recent times,in the range of 25k I gather. On a different note,I had a innova here in the UAE (was being used as a staff pick up vehicle). Got totalled in a 40 km/h crash with a gmc pickup, the pickup had a slight dent on its rear bumper :-). The innova front end crumbled up like origami and the sole occupant had 2 broken ribs and a pneumothorax.The airbags deployed though.Did not delve much into it as the insurance guys payed up in full and my employee recovered fully, however the vehicle appears to be quite fragile isn't it?

[VaidhiR]

Good to hear that aasheeshchopra is safe and sound. Looks like the Innova has really absorbed a major brunt of the impact. As a human being and a responsible road user, I really despise and loath drivers who drive like maniacs. I really feel that there is a special place in hell for such inconsiderate drivers.

But I think we need to take a step back and analyse what went wrong and where because some of us are of the opinion that in case of a crash, the airbag has to deploy. Well thats not entirely true. Allow me to explain. I have been working on such scenarios for over 7 years now. I think I can put forth some perspectives (in my view) as to what really triggers the airbag sensors. I will concentrate on Side Crash because the Innova has had a side crash. But the general principle is true for all loadcases.

1. As someone rightly pointed out, the sensor location. The attached image shows the general sensor locations in a VW Golf. There are usually 14 sensors on each side. 5 per door and 4 on the B-pillar. They are used for multiple observations. Airbag trigger being one of them. They are connected to the side airbags and/or curtain airbags and/or shoulder airbags depending on what is equipped in your car. The idea and rationale behind such a placement is to reduce the contact area/time between the deforming BIW (body in white) and the occupants. This is why the development of a strong (and light) BIW has been a major challenge for all the major OEMs.

2. In the front fender region, there are no sensors for side crash. But for front crash. So the front airbag wont activate. The side sensors are all located in the door/B-pillar region. And because the impact didnt involve any of these three components, the airbag didnt deploy. This is because the impact location didnt warrant sufficient loading on the sensor which would've otherwise triggered the airbag. And this is what Rehaan rightly said - Unless the trigger of the airbag is 100% warranted, an airbag WILL NOT deploy. Even if it is at 99%. Thats how it is developed. Because a untriggered airbag might save a life. But a wrongly deployed airbag WILL kill a life.

3. Someone mentioned price of the car as a means to suggest that more expensive cars should offer more protection. Driving safe is primary protection. Seat Belts are secondary protection. Airbag are tertiary protection, at best. In my opinion, they come much behind. And for that matter, it doesnt matter if the car costs 300.000 or 3.000.000. Safety is safety. If an airbag has to be deployed, it has to be deployed. Unfortunately, in my view, this case isnt.


But aasheeshchopra. I am sorry for the accident and I hope you are well. But thank you for your contribution. Posts like yours help me get some perspectives on what really makes a car safer after an accident and where we, occupant and restraint analysts, must concentrate upon to make the cars a little more safer tomorrow than what is is today.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by VaidhiR

Unless the trigger of the airbag is 100% warranted, an airbag WILL NOT deploy. Even if it is at 99%. Thats how it is developed. Because a untriggered airbag might save a life. But a wrongly deployed airbag WILL kill a life.
[/b]

Thanks for the insights, just a common sense Question, how does an Airbag help save a life in an Accident but the same very Airbag can take a Life otherwise? You want to say, that Airbags deploy more softly in a major Accident or am I missing your explanation completely?

[VaidhiR]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Thanks for the insights, just a common sense Question, how does an Airbag help save a life in an Accident but the same very Airbag can take a Life otherwise? You want to say, that Airbags deploy more softly in a major Accident or am I missing your explanation completely?

Take a look at these two unrelated videos. The first one is the side-by-side test of a late deployment of an airbag. From my experience, this should be at 56kmph. Or 50 kmph. Depending on the tested NCAP. But not any slower.

The second one is what happens if an airbag is 7/100 of a second too late.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAwrq9-1oQQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS6ywFGcLSk

Also to those who are interested in knowing a little more about airbags.
Taken from check out Transport Canada’s website.

https://www.icbc.com/about-icbc/news...ts/airbags.pdf

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by VaidhiR

Take a look at these two unrelated videos. The first one is the side-by-side test of a late deployment of an airbag.

I can't make out what you are trying to convey. We are talking about the conditions under which Airbags deploy or Not and not what happens when the Airbags are not correctly programmed or deployed at the intended time. That will be too much for the normal folk like me to understand.

If you all specialists here feel that a non-deployed Airbag is better than a deployed Airbag in case of an Accident where certain parameters are not met, then I have nothing further to add.

[VaidhiR]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

I can't make out what you are trying to convey. We are talking about the conditions under which Airbags deploy or Not and not what happens when the Airbags are not correctly programmed or deployed at the intended time. That will be too much for the normal folk like me to understand.

My bad. I misunderstood. I was thinking of the wrong firing values inside the airbag when you asked me that question.

I will try to generalise the explanation to what I said.

The reason airbag sensors are concentrated around the doors, B-pillar and roof rails is because they are present to protect the occupant. They act like a cocoon. A fender hit side crash, though is a side crash, doesnt involve the "occupant" region. The BIW is adequately designed for this. Hence, the Innova didnt deploy the side bags. Probably. It could have been the case where it should have deployed. But thats for investigators and field analysts to summarize.

Roll-over are complex events and crash severity factors. In case of a side crash, the occupant is at 90° to vector of impact. Or in case of a pole crash, 75°. But both these happen directly to the occupant chamber. And airbag sensors are developed for this. Because the travel trajectory of dummy head, shoulder, torso and pelvis are all analysed and studied over and over again.

A front fender side crash, doesnt replicate any of this. So, the trajectory of any of the dummy body, isnt studied to the lengths and depths of a typical side crash. So not much is known about the trajectory of the dummy head, shoulder, torso and pelvis. If any of this is close or far away to the airbag, then what happens to the watermelon happens. Which classifies as "misuse" This is because of the percentage of accidents happening in this manner, shape and form. Thats why a side crash is different to a roll over crash.

Against this backdrop, There are roll-over airbags. And there are curtain airbags. The difference being in the location of the sensor and the function it provides. Because a roll-over airbag could function as a curtain airbag. But a curtain airbag will not function as a roll-over airbag.

[rovingeye]

Hi - I just looked through the Endeavour manual and found the attached information about deployment of side and curtain airbags. If I'm reading correctly, they are saying that during rollover, side and curtain airbags will NOT deploy.

This is similar to what some others have indicated above. Following is a screen grab form the Endeavour manual.

[Leoshashi]

Originally Posted by GTO

Whatever the science behind airbags, if they don't open in such a rollover, I don't know when they will.

A close friend had a nasty crash couple of months back, when a Honda City T Boned his Yaris on Highway. I had recommended him Yaris over Ciaz or City due to its superior build quality and primarily 7 airbags.

The car went over the divider after the crash. None of the occupants got any injury, but their heads surely banged against the glass and side pillars. Luckily they walked off with no injury to speak of. But what's concerning is that none of the side airbags were triggered.

I agree the crash wasn't as severe as the Innova featured here, but what's the use of having multiple airbags when your head has to bear the brunt of crashing into the glass?

Some pics:

























































A huge bill. Thankfully he had Zero Dep cover.



Regards,
Shashi

[VaidhiR]

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

The car went over the divider after the crash. None of the occupants got any injury, but their heads surely banged against the glass and side pillars. Luckily they walked off with no injury to speak of. But what's concerning is that none of the side airbags were triggered.

Oh. This is serious. The doors have had significant intrusions and I would've guessed the airbags to be deployed. What version of Yaris is it? And what are its features if I may ask.



Again, glad that nothing serious happened to its occupants. But this should've been a classic case of a Side crash.


What happened after that? Did the dealer or Toyota give any explanation?


On a related side note, on the list of related threads in the bottom of the page, I see two threads with Toyota's failure and one with Skoda. A quick section search yields other threads with airbag recalls, failure to deploy and airbag software updates. And all in India. Whether or not the airbag is intended to deploy is secondary. But there seems to be multiple threads denoting the same. This seems to be a recurring theme. Does anyone else feel the same?

[Leoshashi]

Originally Posted by VaidhiR

What version of Yaris is it? And what are its features if I may ask.

This is the mid G CVT variant, which gets 7 airbags, ABS, and EBD. Infact 7 airbags was one of the major draw towards getting this Toyota, else our 2nd choice was a Ciaz/Baleno Automatic. IIRC, Yaris' Base variant with CVT was priced close to Ciaz Top End Automatic.

What happened after that? Did the dealer or Toyota give any explanation?

Neither did we ask for any explanation, nor they gave any. We needed the car back ASAP and despite a good enough repair, the feeling of a new car is gone. It will be replaced soon with a City ZX CVT/Ciaz Alpha Auto.

Regards,
Shashi

[voldemort]

Elsewhere on team-bhp, there's a post about a crash involving a Chevy Optra and a Suzuki Kizashi.

Recently my dad (black kizashi) was in an accident where the other car driver (Grey optra) just slept off on the wheel. He bumped straight into the rear right wheel. The impact was quite strong (told by my dad) and the curtain & shoulder airbags (which opens from inside the seat) deployed immediately. My dad said that had those not deployed, his head could've smashed right into the driver side window. Optra's both front airbag also got deployed immediately.

Source. (Maruti Suzuki Kizashi 2.4 CVT: Test Drive and Review)
(There are pictures of both crashed cars at the link).

Now, if one can make judgements from pictures, the Kizashi had far less impact than the Innova and Yaris mentioned here. I mean, take a look at the Innova from the first post, and then look back at the Kizashi.

I understand that airbags aren't the last word in safety, and that there are other mechanisms to ensure the safety of the passengers, but nevertheless it's appalling to learn that a crash should happen in the "right" way for airbags to deploy.

Glad to know everybody involved is safe.

[wrongturn]

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

I agree the crash wasn't as severe as the Innova featured here, but what's the use of having multiple airbags when your head has to bear the brunt of crashing into the glass?

Some pics:

Attachment 1885897

A huge bill. Thankfully he had Zero Dep cover.

Attachment 1885898

Regards,
Shashi

₹4.25L repair bill for just those repairs on a car that costs ₹9L amazing how Toyota is ripping Indians off on perceived brand value.

On a separate thread, people have voted in favour of Toyota badge against a Maruti Suzuki one, though Toyota has it's merits like extend warranty and last I heard it's ₹12 cheaper, but it would be interesting how much Toyota will charge their Glanza takers once they suffer the similar fate because presumably they will buy parts from MSIL and sell it to their customers, so parts would definitely carry some Toyota premium over the actual price.

Once upon a time there wasn't any competition for the Innova and Fortuner, but now there are better products like Hexa and Endeavour available, and both the new Innova and the Fortuner hasn't shown the same promise, quality and reliability standards as the previous generation. So, hopefully in next 5-6 years the Indian market will mature enough to bring the Toyota on ground again. Toyota India will become what Honda India is now, or maybe worse very soon.

[drsnt]

Originally Posted by

[ATTACH=IMG20190617WA0114.jpg

1885898[/ATTACH]

Regards,
Shashi

Can you please share the original bill for parts that were replaced.
Thank you

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

A close friend had a nasty crash couple of months back, when a Honda City T Boned his Yaris on Highway. I had recommended him Yaris over Ciaz or City due to its superior build quality and primarily 7 airbags.

The car went over the divider after the crash. None of the occupants got any injury, but their heads surely banged against the glass and side pillars. Luckily they walked off with no injury to speak of. But what's concerning is that none of the side airbags were triggered.

I agree the crash wasn't as severe as the Innova featured here, but what's the use of having multiple airbags when your head has to bear the brunt of crashing into the glass?

A huge bill. Thankfully he had Zero Dep cover.

This is actually worrisome. I would expect the side and curtain Airbags to have triggered in this instance unless the impact speed/deceleration was below the threshold.

Here's my friend's Jetta that was sideswiped (from rear left quarter side) by an Innova. The side and curtain airbags deployed.




The estimate for replacing the Airbag related stuff itself is over 4L.