[laluks]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you for this excellent topic.

My views here will probably invite the wrath of my fellow motoring members. Speed and acceleration and associated contribution to accidents are a function of horse power. Do we need cars with 100 or 200 horse power? After all, all we are doing 95% of the time is to move our 75 or 80 kgs back side a few tens of kms a day in city traffic.
.....

PS: I don't practice what I preach.

One of the main reasons why I took a lesser bhp car after my Civic. I am with you on this VN

I too don't practice what I preach.

[SideView]

Originally Posted by DriverWanderer

Speed has been accepted as one of the important factors in crash severity. Simply put, higher your speed higher is the chance of a grievous injury in the event of a motor vehicle crash. In this regard, various agencies are using different measures to reduce speed (aka calm traffic) to reduce the number of fatalities. Some of the measures employed ]

GPS enabled speed limiters are the way to go.
Within city limits reduce the speed and outside city limits full power availability.

I think this is enabled for high end supercars to make them road legal. Where once the vehicle detects that it is in a racetrack environment it removes all the speed restrictions and goes into track mode.

[jailbird_fynix]

Chennai : LED traffic lights at Stop Lines

http://youtu.be/aJkk6yt_q5Y

The point is to alert motorists who fail to notice important traffic signs at junctions.They also work as speed-breakers. How practical are these? How long will they last? You probably know the answers to these questions more than I do. Here's a screenshot from the video above.


Hey, he stopped didn't he? So what if his car is halfway across the pedestrian crossing.


Atleast for the first few days, we can expect people to slow down, just to watch the lights up close. "Looks nice, no?"

[landcruiser123]

There is no better way to reduce speed than to have a stricter system to obtain a license. That is a long term solution.

But for the short-term, I think we should use:
1. Speed bumps. And for heavens sake- please design them properly.

2. Have more tree lined streets. This apparently makes us more aware of our speed rather than barren spaces along the street
3. Use speed cameras
4. Have a radar and a digital display under the speed limit sign and have flashing digits to indicate when someone is speeding more than 3km/h.

Originally Posted by msdivy

The focus of this thread seems to be recommending 'Flexible Poles' for speed reduction. Isn't those used for ensuring lane-discipline?

There are plenty of curves on our roads and probably in one in million case, the driver fails to negotiate the curve due to excess speed. Do the flexible poles help in that particular case?

They can help as our perception indicates how the roads are not wide. We'll be dissuaded from speeding.

[Turbohead]

If speed was the cause of all accidents, motorsports wouldn't exist.

As someone who looks ahead and drives rather than looking at the speedometer ( except for the tachometer), I've noticed that I maintain speed depending on how fast things around me move, especially lane markings. When lane markings are closely spaced, it gives a feeling of going very fast and vice versa. I've noticed that in recent highway repairs, contractors have painted them closer to each other and this has reduced my speed too.

But honestly, stricter rules for issuance of driving license and better public transport is the only way to go.

[sam_babushka]

In my opinion, speed is one of the issues in India, albeit a minor one.

The primary reason for motor vehicle accidents is indiscipline. Whether it is the truck coming in on the wrong side of the road, to the complete lack of adherence to lanes and haphazard zig-zagging that we are accustomed to while driving, to the motorcycle puttering across the road at intersections all of a sudden without the rider bothering to stop-watch-go. Indiscipline in not following traffic signals, and overloading our vehicles much more than the recommended number of passengers. Indiscipline of randomly stopping in the middle of a carriageway on the highway because you missed an exit, to suddenly spearing across lanes to get to a turn.

Speed is of course one factor, but we need to discipline ourselves first

[saket77]

I must thank the OP for bringing up this important topic to discuss.

Although most of enjoy driving on undivided highways, but properly designed 4 or 6 lane divided highways with well marked intersections in advance would go long way in decreasing highway mishaps. At least from the infrastructure point of view.

Next, we, private car owners are the ones whom I find to be most reckless on the highways. We behave like a wild bird just out of cage (of city traffic) and flock around much carelessly and at dangerous speeds once on the highway. With no formal training or skills of anticipatory driving, many veer in and out of the highway traffic without realizing how dangerous a gentle peck from those monstrous trucks at those speeds can be. The speed masking capabilities of modern cars weave another false sense of security around. Another segment which I keep a vigil eye on highways while driving are the passenger buses. I find the truckers, though slow at times, to be very disciplined.

We should realize that highway driving is a very matured level of driving where small mistakes can lead to big accidents. In fact, it requires much more skill to drive on highways than city driving.

Last, speed breakers, heavy fines & suspension of driving licences are the way to go in the city limits, for now to control reckless driving and speeding. I see much lackluster implementation of rules in city limits like driving in the opposite lane, jumping red lights, speeding, loud aftermarket exhausts- these all are hazards which a strict traffic police can handle then & there, but for some reason most are let go.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Do we need cars with 100 or 200 horse power? After all, all we are doing 95% of the time is to move our 75 or 80 kgs back side a few tens of kms a day in city traffic. Just a generation ago the Standard Herald was at a lordly 39hp, the Padmini claimed 44hp and the HM ambassador was a jot above that. As I look up my treasured Observers book of cars of 1974 here are some BHP figures that pop out:

The Audi 100LS, equivalent of the A6 today = 100 bhp

Mind you these cars I've mentioned were not laggards. Young people then liked spirited cars as much as young people today. Of the list above the only car I've driven is the Opel Rekord Saloon owned by an uncle who let me jam the pedal twice - Lucknow-Kanpur and Delhi-Chandigarh. The girl could sprint.

That 2X or 3X the BHP under our bonnets is adding to our CO2 footprint.

PS: I don't practice what I preach.

You know very well that horsepower is measured at certain rpm , if you look at the audi q3 35tfsi dyno graph, you will see that power output in hp is only around 50hp at city engine speeds. Power is certainly not the problem then.

The older cars were powerful at lower engine speeds, therefore peak power output figures could be a low number and yet these were fast cars for the roads that existed.

Carbon footprint? considering less fuel consumed, lower still.

Originally Posted by Turbohead

If speed was the cause of all accidents, motorsports wouldn't exist.

As someone who looks ahead and drives rather than looking at the speedometer ( except for the tachometer), I've noticed that I maintain speed depending on how fast things around me move, especially lane markings. When lane markings are closely spaced, it gives a feeling of going very fast and vice versa. I've noticed that in recent highway repairs, contractors have painted them closer to each other and this has reduced my speed too.

But honestly, stricter rules for issuance of driving license and better public transport is the only way to go.

That's a fresh perspective, thanks.

A well constructed road with run outs , proper barricades and seamless flow of traffic is what we need. Slowing down is just a reaction to cope up with the lack proper infrastructure.

India may have the slowest traffic in the world yet having the largest number of road accidents.

We just need to have the will to fix things from the root cause, not just the symptom of a broken system.

[DriverWanderer]

Originally Posted by msdivy

The focus of this thread seems to be recommending 'Flexible Poles' for speed reduction. Isn't those used for ensuring lane-discipline?

You are correct. This is my lack of foresight! Please see the additional images for speed reduction measures

Midblock raised traffic Islands

These islands are extremely effective in reducing the speed of vehicles as the vehicles are forced to meander. Additionally, it also gives the pedestrians a refuge space to wait before crossing the second half of the road.

Curb Extensions

Such curb extensions might seem ineffective to the untrained eye, But it induces a psychological fear in drivers and helps in reducing the speed of the vehicles.

Chicanes

The most famous chicanes are on racing tracks. These nifty little things are very effective in reducing speed even on regular streets.

Table top

These are raised platforms which are designed to slow the traffic in a smooth way. Some table tops are also used as a connecting crosswalk.

Unfortunately, I could not find any of these measures on my computer. I would be much obliged if the photos of such traffic calming measures form India could be shared in this post.

One of the intentions of this post is to generate a collection of traffic calming measures which can be shared with Police and PWD to help them see the various ways in which speed can be controlled other than speed breakers!

[VaidhiR]

Non-Newtonian Fluid Speed Breaker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fng6gCjl58

While this calls for an extensive investment, I think that we could use this as a long term solution. And inside major cities.

The basic idea is that the car drives on top of a rubberised tube. The speed of the roll of the wheel on the rubber determines the bump. The fluid stays flexible and Newtonian under speed limits. The moment speeds exceed, the liquid become hard, becoming non-Newtonian. And this becomes a speed bump forcing the driver to slow down.

Standardised plastic speed bumps





But until then, we could standardize these plastic speed breakers. They are already successfully implemented within apartment complexes and gated communities and their success shows that they are effective in reducing speeds. The bumps will have to be nailed down to the roads and can be reinstalled in case of a road layover.

And they come with built in reflectors.

[SR-71]

While there are a lot of interesting solutions suggested we do have some desi version or the other implemented. For example the curb extensions find its implementation in the form of steel police barriers. These have time and again proved to do more harm than good. Have you seen how the vehicles, specially car drivers zig zag through these barricades in NH. In several places, in city & out in the NH's you find them toppled which proves to be more dangerous. Mid-islands ? Come to Bangalore, we have several of those in our roads, though they are just a result of an erratic contractor who leves behind large amount of debris after construction.

At the risk of sounding cynical, as far our country is concerned, the most effective system is unfortunately non-engineering. It is to hit traffic violaters where it hurts most - huge fines. Make the fines large enough to hurt an average joe's pocket and make it compulsory for traffic police to meet high targets with proofs and you will see how effectively it works. I believe this is the single biggest traffic violation deterrent even in an first world nation.

[mvadg]

I think there is a complete discipline of engineering devoted to this area. While Traffic Engineering uses engineering techniques to achieve the safe and efficient movement of people and goods on roadways, Traffic calming uses physical design and other measures to improve safety for motorists, pedestrians and cyclists. It aims to encourage safer, more responsible driving and potentially reduce traffic flow. Urban planners and traffic engineers have many strategies for traffic calming, including narrowed roads and speed humps. Such measures are common in Australia and Europe (especially Northern Europe), but less so in North America. Traffic calming is a calque (literal translation) of the German word Verkehrsberuhigung – the term's first published use in English was in 1985 by Carmen Hass-Klau.[1]

(Wikipedia)

I found tons of material on Traffic calming (GIYF)

• Making Traffic Safer
  
• Engineering Countermeasures for Reducing Speeds
  
• Traffic Calming on Main Roads Through Rural Communities
  
• The hurdles of introducing innovative road safety infrastructure solutions – a
• case study on raised Safety Platforms
  
• Curbing the need to speed
  
• A REVIEW OF CURRENT TRAFFIC CALMING TECHNIQUES
  
• Road design measures to reduce drivers’ speed via ‘psychological’ processes

The reason we have to discuss traffic engineering on this forum is because we do not produce engineers in our country. Traffic engineering was an un-glamorous field that promised a dead end job. We are paying for it in more ways than one now.

[mvadg]

@Moderators - Kindly merge with above post.

Another nice PPT, that I converted to a PDF (attached)

[DriverWanderer]

The problem with speed redefined!
It seems that there is some opinion with regard to speed not being the worst of the problems. Please do allow me to clarify this. There are many reasons for road crashes! Some (not all) of these are:

1. Distracted driving (Driving while texting, on mobile phones, talking, etc.)
2. Drunk Driving
3. Reckless driving
4. Poor road conditions (Wet and slippery roads)
5. People driving with out license
6. Cattle on the road
7. Slow vehicles on road
8. Poor lane discipline
9. Poor training and lisenceing
10. Corruption
11. and so on and so forth!

Although all these reasons are important and extremely relevant, speed is also an important reason for high crashes. WHO has admitted that speed is a major factor in crashes! In fact, Sweden has admitted in their Zero Fatality Vision that crashes are unavoidable so long as vehicles are driven by humans (error-free driving is impossible). Speed can change the nature of injury from a mild injury to a fatality! Hence, authorities are using various measures to reduce speed to increase safety!

But as many others have pointed out accurately, speed is not the only factor. But let's all admit that it is an important factor and find out the various measures that are employed to decrease speed!

Originally Posted by saket77

Although most of enjoy driving on undivided highways, but properly designed 4 or 6 lane divided highways with well marked intersections in advance would go long way in decreasing highway mishaps. At least from the infrastructure point of view.

If there are any photos in your repisitory of the same, would you kindly post it too?.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you for this excellent topic.
Do we need cars with 100 or 200 horse power?

Well considering that we also have the need to move on highways at higher speeds, it becomes important to have vehicles which are frugal in fuel consumption but capable of moving fast when needed! So in that light, perhaps, we do need a balance. But then again you are right, perhaps a 200 horsepower is a bit too much!

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

I think we need to put in some systemic thinking here, it needs a huge overhaul. The need to travel is probably what needs to be addressed first.

Absolutely, we do need a huge overhaul. Considering that once upon a time we (the people) were fighting for roads, then we fought for roads without potholes. Subsequently, we fought for dual lane carriageways. Nowadays I suppose we are fighting for safer roads which are engineered better and we are also fighting for better road etiquette and better safety practices like wearing seat-belts!

Originally Posted by EcoFox0718

My two cents on this issue:
Another way to regulate would be to make Speed Governors mandatory.

One issue with making speed governors mandatory is that the governors become an additional component of failure. At least this is what was told to me by my peers. Further, I suppose the government fears a public backlash if speed governors are mandatory.

Originally Posted by EcoFox0718

When it comes to identifying breaches of speed limits - modern technology now makes it capable of translating image (Car Registration Number on the Number Plate) to text, and therefore the most ideal way to measure breaches of speed limit is to use a logically placed network of cameras which captures the timestamp at which the same car is passing different waypoints and calculate the average speed of the car between those waypoints. Due to the various fancy number plates this country has, we would obviously start with lower accuracy, but machine learning should allow for this accuracy to be improved over a long-enough test period before it is formally deployed.

This is a wonderful idea. Do you know of any ready-to-deploy system in place? The very least we could do is suggest to the relevant authorities about the potential that they are missing out on.

Originally Posted by EcoFox0718

I would also like to point out that while over-speeding is an issue, accidents themselves are a result of a combination of multiple factors. One of the biggest such factors - something I see all the time on the Mumbai Pune Expressway - is the sheer lack of lane discipline. We don't have lane discipline at signals, and even worse we don't have speed-based lane discipline on Expressways. Too often, cars switch lanes dangerously because heavy vehicles never move in the designated left lanes for meant for lower speeds.

A sad reality for which there is no solution currently!

Originally Posted by EcoFox0718

Finally, coming to the actual speed limits themselves - I feel many of them are extremely unjust. Scientific research has prescribed speed limits as 85th percentile of speed in a stretch of the road. This number is calculated differently for different classes of vehicles and accordingly, the slow and fast lanes are designated. On most roads in India, the speed limit is stiflingly below this 85th percentile number. Expressways are at 80 km/h (not including ghat sections, of course), and some flyover stretches of the Eastern Expressway are at 40 km/h, for example. I feel this is a bit much. These artificially lower speed limits are automatic deterrents to safe, or within-limits driving, and need to be re-evaluated.

You are absolutely spot on. Historically, it was 85th percentile speed. But nowadays safe navigatable speeds along with human tolerances are being considered for speed limits in many countries. But, we are yet to adopt it. Hopefully, with the development of the speed policy guidelines, the authorities will be made aware of the importance of rational and credible speed limits.

Originally Posted by srishiva

In our country, only speed humps and rumble strips can control the speed. One way to alert to speed humps could be Road Powered systems that convert kinetic energy to electric power. These can atleast light up the humps when cars are approaching them. Will be really useful to warn about the humps. This is my biggest concern especially in Bengaluru

That is a wonderful idea! If you have any more information on that, could you post it in?

Originally Posted by jalsa777

I beg to differ on this topic.

While speed does add to the intensity of the accident, one cannot assume that only reducing speed will be a solution to the accident woes of this country. According to my observations, more often than not, accidents happen due to lack of awareness and LACK OF SPEED !

While the lack of speed (or difference in speed) is one of the contributing factors for crashes, studies have time and again shown that a large number of crashes do happen due to high speeds. Please don't get me wrong, but according to safety norms, a 40km/h is a high speed in a residential neighbourhood! It has a much higher probability of killing a pedestrian in case of a crash than 30km/h. The 10km/h makes a huge difference!

Originally Posted by TorqueKnight

Unless government makes a standard for speed bumps and implement it, these uneven speed bump always bothers people who use a car with low ground clearance

There are standards for speed bumps! IRC99 deals with speed breakers and its design. The designed speed humps are wonderful! The issue is that the design is not followed!

Originally Posted by jailbird_fynix

The point is to alert motorists who fail to notice important traffic signs at junctions.They also work as speed-breakers. How practical are these? How long will they last? You probably know the answers to these questions more than I do.

This is a very interesting initiative by the authorities! Let's see at the end of one year how well they hold up!

Originally Posted by VaidhiR

Non-Newtonian Fluid Speed Breaker.

This is an interesting concept. I think it is not yet deployed on regular streets thought!

Originally Posted by VaidhiR

But until then, we could standardize these plastic speed breakers. They are already successfully implemented within apartment complexes and gated communities and their success shows that they are effective in reducing speeds. The bumps will have to be nailed down to the roads and can be reinstalled in case of a road layover.

Plastic bumps are deployed all over the state highways in West Bengal. Authorities are yet to realize that these bumps are good only for light vehicles and will fail where heavy trucks ply! But as you correctly observed, it is good within apartment complexes and gated communities!

Originally Posted by SR-71

While there are a lot of interesting solutions suggested we do have some desi version or the other implemented. For example the curb extensions find its implementation in the form of steel police barriers. These have time and again proved to do more harm than good. Have you seen how the vehicles, specially car drivers zig zag through these barricades in NH. In several places, in city & out in the NH's you find them toppled which proves to be more dangerous. Mid-islands ? Come to Bangalore, we have several of those in our roads, though they are just a result of an erratic contractor who leves behind large amount of debris after construction.

Steel police barricades are, in my honest opinion, are the worst form of speed reducing measure!

Originally Posted by mvadg

I found tons of material on Traffic calming (GIYF)

While there is no dearth of materials and measures (and thank you for the links), we are trying to create a collection of photos of the various measures used in India.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

There is no better way to reduce speed than to have a stricter system to obtain a license. That is a long term solution.

But for the short-term, I think we should use:
1. Speed bumps. And for heavens sake- please design them properly.

2. Have more tree lined streets. This apparently makes us more aware of our speed rather than barren spaces along the street
3. Use speed cameras
4. Have a radar and a digital display under the speed limit sign and have flashing digits to indicate when someone is speeding more than 3km/h.

They can help as our perception indicates how the roads are not wide. We'll be dissuaded from speeding.

You are absolutely spot on!

Originally Posted by SR-71

At the risk of sounding cynical, as far our country is concerned, the most effective system is unfortunately non-engineering. It is to hit traffic violaters where it hurts most - huge fines. Make the fines large enough to hurt an average joe's pocket and make it compulsory for traffic police to meet high targets with proofs and you will see how effectively it works. I believe this is the single biggest traffic violation deterrent even in an first world nation.

Making fines large will only increase corruption. This is a recorded phenomenon. Increasing the fines will only lead to making a richer Police force. But giving a quota for the police to meet could lead to handing out fines to more expensive car drivers! The effect of high fines may not be what is actually required.

[TorqueKnight]

Originally Posted by DriverWanderer

There are standards for speed bumps! IRC99 deals with speed breakers and its design. The designed speed humps are wonderful! The issue is that the design is not followed!

If they implement such standards then the roads will be beautiful. There were many PIL and court orders related to driving in India. Were there any such PIL or court order for speed breakers?. It's the need of the hour