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Old 13th November 2020, 01:41   #436
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

29 pages!
I think the unspoken rule of the forum is not to repeat a point again and again (waste of time for everyone). Which implies one has the obligation to check all the previous comments before adding a new one to make sure he is adding something new.
Also, looking at the love the desis are getting (I too love them, Tata in particular), why not add a poll asking members what car make they own with the check all that apply type of question (if possible).
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Old 13th November 2020, 01:51   #437
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
What connection? What the heck are you implying? When Mods post, we do as regular members. Do you want all moderators to come and make a token post?

And yes, just FYI, I did post earlier on this thread.

It would be great to apply some common sense before posting just about anything. Don't give in to any crazy stories, theories and conspiracies cooking in your mind.
Let me put this on record and say I meant absolutely no offense to any moderator or member for that matter. My post simply comes in light of the fact that this forum has been founded on the very basis of being a consumer driven one and not a forum where manufacturers have an upper hand.

Team BHP has always ensured that it comes across as a forum for the people. No other website or publication stakes as much claim to this fact and rightly so. There's absolutely nothing wrong. I will even say we deserve to in the face of what has happened to automotive journalism in this country.

However, this is possibly the toughest time for all of these publications. Few have decided to keep their mouths shut while others have started dishing out justifications on behalf of KIA that defy logic. In such circumstances, isn't it only justified that members seek the very people who run this forum to also opine about what KIA has done? I know so many people who bought the Seltos based on the official review (Not saying the review is biased. Its extremely detailed and that's the reason why I recommend it myself to many). I agree none of us saw this coming. Not me, not the members, not the owners and nor the mods. We are mere mortals, not fortune tellers or gods. Mistakes do happen. I openly claim I recommended the Seltos to 2-3 people (one of whom has taken delivery just a week back and the other who is in the process of cancelling her booking) on the pretext that it was the best option in the 15-20L price bracket. But I am going to say it, I feel ashamed of myself. I feel betrayed that I recommended this car and people bought it on my word. I only recommended it, but imagine the plight of someone who actually paid 15-20 big ones and bought it. That's my point.

The wrong cannot be undone, but it can be condemned. This is where team BHP comes into the picture. I can look at 5-10 idiots rambling about how global NCAP has played foul and laugh, but when it comes to a serious discussion I know I will eventually find something worth reading and sharing here. The members have bashed KIA and that's rightfully done, but as a whole, I still think a stand needs to be taken. And that validation can only come from the people who run it and who stake claim in the fact that it always sticks to what is right for the consumer, and isn't a mere trojan for fraudelent companies like KIA.
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Old 13th November 2020, 02:37   #438
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

I would like to take a moment to thank the mods from my heart.

I have huge respect to TeamBHP and the mods. I feel people’s emotions are running high, rightfully so. But I don’t feel it is a good thing to demand our own mods to post anything. Infact, we should be grateful to them at this moment because without them we can’t have such a true and open forum to even discuss this. I know most of us like certain brands including myself and that is the same with the mods as well. So let’s be a little understanding. We all wish for safer & better cars for India.

If I am not wrong there are some instances where some misses have happened such as ESP missing on diesel variants of Seltos is not mentioned in the TBHP review. I am sure this is an unintentional miss and I request mods to prioritise safety features in all reviews. Even in ownership reviews let’s add safety along with likes and dislikes.

Last edited by Godzilla : 13th November 2020 at 02:40.
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Old 13th November 2020, 03:00   #439
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram87pune View Post
The Nexon which scored the 5 star rating was the pre facelifted model. The current facelifted model is not a 5 star one unless it is tested by the NCAP and proven so.

This is because the facelifted Nexon has undergone quite a few cosmetic changes like new bumpers, headlights etc. According to my sources even a change of alloy wheel design can affect crash test performance(though to a small degree).
It IS proven by NCAP. They do not need to conduct the test every-time they change a bumper or an alloy wheel or an interior led light. The plastic wrap around watermelon is not to keep it safe in case of a fall. Plastics bumper on cars are not for safety, they are purely there for vanity. They could crash a car without the plastic bumper in the front and it will still have the same crash test ratings.

I like the idea of saying something absolutely absurd and obtuse and then attributing it to un-named , unqualified "sources". Does that mean same car with alloy wheels and steels wheel will have different crash test rating? What if someone changes alloy wheels after purchasing the car? Deary me! Can you please ask your "source" to explain what difference change of alloy wheel design will make to the crash test which has nothing to do with the tyres or alloys anyway and why? I am waiting for your reply which I am sure isnt coming but I am putting it out here for everyone to see.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 13th November 2020 at 03:19.
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Old 13th November 2020, 03:11   #440
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishy76 View Post
Mistakes do happen. I openly claim I recommended the Seltos to 2-3 people (one of whom has taken delivery just a week back and the other who is in the process of cancelling her booking) on the pretext that it was the best option in the 15-20L price bracket. But I am going to say it, I feel ashamed of myself. I feel betrayed that I recommended this car and people bought it on my word. I only recommended it, but imagine the plight of someone who actually paid 15-20 big ones and bought it. That's my point.
Perhaps you are taking it out too much on yourself. This entire segment of 4+ m crossovers/ SUVs stands untested or scoring poorly (Seltos/ Duster/Scorpio). Anyone who is buying a car in this segment above 12 lac is taking a blind leap of faith. Let people make a judgement call for themselves . Our site will at the most, make them ponder a bit. Beyond that, berating just Kia Motors is pointless right now.
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Old 13th November 2020, 03:17   #441
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
What connection? What the heck are you implying? When Mods post, we do as regular members. Do you want all moderators to come and make a token post?

And yes, just FYI, I did post earlier on this thread.

It would be great to apply some common sense before posting just about anything. Don't give in to any crazy stories, theories and conspiracies cooking in your mind.
Ignore them mate. You dont have to show outrage to be outraged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron:) View Post
Taking the Seltos discussion forward, I decided to check the crash test results on Global NCAP's website, and the results are truly appalling.

- When it comes to Adult Occupant Protection, cars like the Renault Kwid and Datsun Redigo have got higher scores than the Seltos! Keep in mind that these are cars that sell at 33% of the price at which the Seltos sells.

- Some other cars that have scored more than the Seltos include the 'ancient' Renault Duster, 'tinny' Maruti Ertiga, 'Mr. Cost Cutting' Honda Mobilio, and the 'Not a proper Ford' Ford Aspire. I'm in no way justifying the results of any car, be it the Duster or the Aspire. I'm just pointing out the truth revealed by cold hard numbers.

- A Renault Duster, built on an ancient platform, sold as a budget SUV, scores marginally higher on crash safety than the 'badass' Seltos. Let that skin in.

- The same story can be seen in the case of Child Occupant Protection.

Source: http://www.globalncap.org/results/
This is truly an eye opener. For adult safety its worse than bargain basement Datsun Redi Go or even the Kwid! Its truly horrendous!
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Old 13th November 2020, 03:18   #442
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

Because safety tests are so standardised (crash at these specific angles at these specific speeds for every car), there are experts that worry that manufacturers are designing their cars to specifically do well on those tests. But real-world accidents come up with all kinds of variables, and impact does not vary linearly with speed, so even cars rated equivalently well at 64 kmph may perform significantly differently at 70 kmph and with variation of angle etc.

Moreover we should not take the GNCAP to be be-all end-all of safety tests. In fact afaik it's the least stringent of all the crash test programs. The Euro NCAP tests collisions from every side and with more variation in angles. The GNCAP is a recent program specifically designed with developing countries in mind.

The Seltos being rated 3 stars definitely sucks but I neither understand the consequent dejection nor the triumphalism about Ford and Mahindra and VW and Skoda (most of their cars don't fare all that much better).

There are studies done that collect data from accidents to correlate with crash test data to see whether crash test results really do mean anything. By and large the conclusion that yes, there is a significant difference between a 2 star rated car and a 5 star rated car, where the latter reduces changes of fatal injury by 20 odd percent.

Interestingly the studies seem to say that greater star ratings don't necessarily reduce the risk of minor injuries (which is found to be roughly equivalent in 2 and 5 star rated cars).

If a similar study was done to compare 3 and 4 star rated cars and how they perform in real world accidents, I doubt any significant difference would emerge. What kind of injury is sustained in the accident would become more dependent on the nature of accident than the nature of the car.

I wouldn't recommend the Seltos to anyone as a safe car. But I also wouldn't discourage anyone from buying it, considering that Indians (and the rest of the world) have spent the last 50 odd years driving unsafe cars without seatbelts or ABS or collision avoidance. There are people here who drive 20 year old gypsies and 800s and also people who have either carried children or been carried as children on scooters and motorcycles. Compared to all that, the Seltos is far safer.

Another point to note. In European countries where anyway all cars now get 5 star safety ratings, the emphasis is not on making more robust or safer cars, but on avoiding collisions and accidents altogether. For them the occupants' safety is not the only thing that matters, also matters the safety of the people on the road (pedestrians, cyclists, 2 wheeler riders, who have no protective shell around them). We're not so bothered by that here.

In that respect we actually fail spectacularly in India. There's nowhere to really walk. People with large and safe cars love to install a little spike or flag or rod on their front bonnets, ready to impale any poor old sop unfortunate enough to run into them. We have the largest number of accidents in the world. What would do a lot more for safety (than safer cars) is better roads, better signs, bike lanes, more training before awarding licenses, things like that. Just my two cents.
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Old 13th November 2020, 05:36   #443
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhdowntheline View Post
Our site will at the most, make them ponder a bit. Beyond that, berating just Kia Motors is pointless right now.
For 4+m crossovers which are below 30 lakhs other than CBUs T-Roc and Karoq , safety rating is just a speculation . This includes Harrier , Compass , XuV , Hector. Eagerly waiting for this results to come
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Old 13th November 2020, 07:12   #444
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

Less choices when considering my next car purchase. Yay! Govt crash test regulations are a joke. It’s not gonna change much. Seltos will survive this ordeal. As bhpians we have the information to take informed decisions whatever it may be. I’m just happy I know, just that little bit more going further.
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Old 13th November 2020, 07:36   #445
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simat View Post
Incase you forgot, you only...
- In case you forgot, the Mods put this thread on the homepage yesterday morning, giving it maximum visibility.

- In case you forgot, it was circulated by Team-BHP in our newsletter yesterday (which reaches tens of thousands of subscribers).

- In case you forgot, it was added to our social media que yesterday and should be going live today / tomorrow (we always have a backlog of threads to post on social media), reaching another 1 lakh readers.

- In case you forgot, the Mod team created & maintains this platform till date, which is the ONLY large Indian car website (24-lakh monthly readers by the way) that offers car owners & enthusiasts to have their fair, honest say.

- In case you forgot, the core team put out 3 news articles on these GNCAP crash tests on the day that the results were out.

- In case you forgot, the Moderators created this dedicated "Road Safety" forum section which is the ONLY road safety section in India with such an enormous volume of content & daily activity.

- In case you forgot, Team-BHP is the ONLY Indian car website to refuse money for car ads and reply to legal notices of car manufacturers with legal replies. NO CAR BRAND can tell us to shut up like they do to other media.

As you can see, the above actions are far greater than a "token post" on the thread. The primary purpose of Moderators is to support, maintain & run Team-BHP, not "post". And when we do post, it is NOT with our Moderator hats on; its as a regular car enthusiast like you. I will post when I want.

So, the next time, don't read between the lines of a Moderator posting too much or too little on any thread, because there is nothing there. If you want fiction drama, watch Netflix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JithinR View Post
Me personally, I think it's very reasonable to expect that the reviews for all these cars (not just the KIA Seltos) can be updated so that the crash test ratings are reflected. Also, this has to go to the cons section
You bet! We will add it later today . Please 'report' such suggestions as we don't read every post on every thread.

Last edited by GTO : 13th November 2020 at 09:26. Reason: One more point
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Old 13th November 2020, 07:45   #446
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

Quote:
Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
If having doubtful handling at 78km/h is what beating land speed records mean to you, then the whole question of having half a brain answers itself! Plus if a Jimny with zero stars is what one seeks, just buy a Gypsy and set the saving aside for another expense, eg. a life insurance policy!
I drove a Willy's jeep, a '56 model for a straight two years as my only car in Bangalore that ferried me, my family and my ex's dogs. We are all still here.

The point is i made sure i used the car for what it was designed for and within its flaws. I extrapolated its strengths and had a real good time. I certainly didn't do slalom events at 70 kmph on it. And i didn't do wet braking tests with offroad mud terrain tyres.

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GTO drives a '80's vintage jeep as an everyday car in Mumbai. Have you asked him if he has half a brain or less for driving something with zero crash test rating everyday and even for airport pickups of his family? Please do.
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Old 13th November 2020, 07:46   #447
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
It IS proven by NCAP. They do not need to conduct the test every-time they change a bumper or an alloy wheel or an interior led light. The plastic wrap around watermelon is not to keep it safe in case of a fall. Plastics bumper on cars are not for safety, they are purely there for vanity. They could crash a car without the plastic bumper in the front and it will still have the same crash test ratings.

I like the idea of saying something absolutely absurd and obtuse and then attributing it to un-named , unqualified "sources". Does that mean same car with alloy wheels and steels wheel will have different crash test rating? What if someone changes alloy wheels after purchasing the car? Deary me! Can you please ask your "source" to explain what difference change of alloy wheel design will make to the crash test which has nothing to do with the tyres or alloys anyway and why? I am waiting for your reply which I am sure isnt coming but I am putting it out here for everyone to see.
Here is my reply that you are waiting for.

1. Plastic bumpers are not used purely for vanity but they are used to avoid damage to any critical components lying behind them like intercooler and other body panels during low speed impact. During low speed impacts the plastic bumper deforms elastically and regain their original shape which results in less damage and repair costs.

Also plastic bumpers provide a cushioning effect to the legs of a pedestrian if you hit one which is now mandatory by law to design the front end of your car to conform to pedestrian protection laws.

2. Regarding retesting of the facelifted Nexon, Yes I still stand by my words that the facelifted Nexon has to be/should be retested by the NCAP because it has undergone a whole host of sheet metal changes mainly to the front. This will definitely have an impact on the test score. Only because the original Nexon was awarded 5 stars does not automatically mean the new one will also be given 5 stars. No way.

3. When we have a frontal crash the stress that is transferred through the different parts of the car like the subframe, A pillar etc is calculated by using "Load Path Analysis". Since the new Nexon has sheet metal changes, these load paths will be different than the original Nexon which warrants a retest.

I am not at all saying that the new Nexon is not a 5 star car but it has to be retested to prove so. If Tata had only changed the headlights and other cosmetic non metallic parts then yes maybe we can say that the older safety ratings still aply.

4. Regarding what I wrote about changes to crash performance for a different alloy wheel design then again Yes I stand by what I said. Like explained earlier, an alloy wheel will behave differently when subject to stress as compared to a steel wheel. Heck 2 alloy wheels of different design will behave completely differently when subject to external stress. That is why I said that a change in alloy wheel design will have a "small" effect on crash performance. If you look closely at crash test videos you will notice that the front wheels are pushed back upon impact so Yes tyres and alloy wheel design do play a small role in frontal crash.

I dont want to take this argument any further as I think I have sufficiently explained what I meant by my earlier post.

Last edited by ram87pune : 13th November 2020 at 08:02.
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Old 13th November 2020, 08:34   #448
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

How many of the BHPians felt that the weighted doors and german thud in the latest Korean Duo offerings are a marketing gimmick to mock safety?
I had the feeling when I got my hands on Venue, but I sincerely hoped that Koreans has improved thier cars on safety aspect.
With Seltos scoring merely 3 stars, I can't believe the sensory feelings the thud and weight of doors gives !
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Old 13th November 2020, 08:41   #449
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

People need to chill. We as a forum should stand united at a time when the car mags and paid influencers are busy dousing this fire at the behest of Hyundai Kia. It's shameful to accuse mods when they're the reason for how this forum has developed over the years and has its credibility intact.

And why even be surprised at the behaviour of Renuka Kripalani and the likes? Their behaviour is as unsurprising as the S-Presso's crash rating.

Do not equate this forum and mods to such unethical paid media.

Last edited by Aditya : 14th November 2020 at 05:20. Reason: Let's keep the discussion cordial
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Old 13th November 2020, 08:48   #450
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Default Re: Global NCAP tests Kia Seltos, i10 Nios and S-Presso. All three perform badly

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram87pune View Post
Here is my reply that you are waiting for.

1. Plastic bumpers are not used purely for vanity but they are used to avoid damage to any critical components lying behind them like intercooler and other body panels during low speed impact. During low speed impacts the plastic bumper deforms elastically and regain their original shape which results in less damage and repair costs.
Oh so now its complete change of context. NCAP is only rating for crash worthiness not pedestrian safety or 100 other things EURO NCAP checks for when awarding the eventual scores. So I ask again, how do alloy wheels effect the crash worthiness of a car? NCAP does not care about the placement of an intercooler, all it cares about is passenger safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram87pune View Post
Also plastic bumpers provide a cushioning effect to the legs of a pedestrian if you hit one which is now mandatory by law to design the front end of your car to conform to pedestrian protection laws.
So where is the pedestrian safety rating? You still haven't explain how alloy wheel design effects safety - let me make it easier for you - any safety laws including pedestrian which are not in scope of NCAP tests anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram87pune View Post
2. Regarding retesting of the facelifted Nexon, Yes I still stand by my words that the facelifted Nexon has to be/should be retested by the NCAP because it has undergone a whole host of sheet metal changes mainly to the front. This will definitely have an impact on the test score. Only because the original Nexon was awarded 5 stars does not automatically mean the new one will also be given 5 stars. No way.
A man falling off a 20 story building will not be saved because he was wearing a suit instead of jeans and a t-shirt. When have you seen automakers speak about safety in context of body panels - we got thicker bonnet in which case why not just make the body panels really really thick, which would be worse actually because all the kinetic energy would be transferred to the humans in the box, just like a tank never mind weight and associated penalties? It is always about the body structure which you cant even see because it is wearing pretty frock aka body panels on top.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram87pune View Post
3. When we have a frontal crash the stress that is transferred through the different parts of the car like the subframe, A pillar etc is calculated by using "Load Path Analysis". Since the new Nexon has sheet metal changes, these load paths will be different than the original Nexon which warrants a retest.
Load path isn't through the front fender or door panels, it is what underneath. Have you seen the front of a F1 car? It doesn't even have body panels. The crash structure is just the nose cone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram87pune View Post
I am not at all saying that the new Nexon is not a 5 star car but it has to be retested to prove so. If Tata had only changed the headlights and other cosmetic non metallic parts then yes maybe we can say that the older safety ratings still aply.
So everything remaining the same, if headlights are changed, even then it will be a "may be".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram87pune View Post
4. Regarding what I wrote about changes to crash performance for a different alloy wheel design then again Yes I stand by what I said. Like explained earlier, an alloy wheel will behave differently when subject to stress as compared to a steel wheel. Heck 2 alloy wheels of different design will behave completely differently when subject to external stress. That is why I said that a change in alloy wheel design will have a "small" effect on crash performance. If you look closely at crash test videos you will notice that the front wheels are pushed back upon impact so Yes tyres and alloy wheel design do play a small role in frontal crash.
So a really brittle alloy wheel would be good for car safety as it will just shatter away in case of a crash?

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Last edited by Aditya : 14th November 2020 at 08:54. Reason: Personal attacks deleted
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