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Old 10th November 2021, 22:00   #46
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Default re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

This is so amazing, I remember just few years ago, no one would bother about Safety but then TATA/Mahindra changed everything. They are targetting 4 stars minimum.

Who would have thought that Thar one day will end-up with 4 Star NCAP and this rating for XUV700 was in the making. Five stars for a Five star car. Now its time that KIA/Hyundai and Maruti also follow them.

Last edited by swunkjyn : 10th November 2021 at 22:16.
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Old 11th November 2021, 00:05   #47
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Default re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

Kudos to Mahindra. As a person who owns the XUV500 since 2013 and now booked the XUV700 as its replacement, I also congratulate myself for putting trust in Mahindra

This was very much expected; I never thought -even for a moment- the Thar will get four stars. It was astonishing, so pleasantly surprising and now, as many have mentioned here getting the five coveted stars is the new normal for Mahindra.

Let's not forget the contribution of Padmabhushan Sri Anand Mahindra. If Mr. Rakesh Jhunjhunwala is our own Warren Buffet, I'd say Mr Mahindra is our own Elon Musk!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarNerd View Post
Getting 5 star safety rating from GNCAP is like getting admission into IIPM rather than IIM which is the Euro NCAP.
While what you said about the GNCAP programme is true, let me explain this: the IIPM degree, though nowhere near the IIT graduation, is not a bad thing. I learnt Oracle and Sybase from an institute in Chennai way back in 1996 and stayed bang opposite the mighty IIT Madras campus (I'm from Kerala). I used to joke with my friends that I am learning "Komputer" from IIT Madras, oops opposite IIT Madras!

The upcoming XUV700 is the 7th car I'd be taking delivery, God-willing. ALL of them are/were powered by utilizing and upgrading from what I have learnt from that institute.
If a somewhat skilled person like me can achieve this, imagine what Mahindra can do with their immense resources and dynamic leadership.

Last edited by Aditya : 11th November 2021 at 05:36. Reason: Factual error
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Old 11th November 2021, 05:51   #48
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Default re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

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Originally Posted by ron178 View Post


There is no modifier for the car tipping over during side impact. Many cars have tipped over in MDB side impacts in the past, including but not limited to the Lynk&Co 01 recently tested by Euro NCAP, which - get this - scored a full 16.0 for side impact (a rare thing, especially with all their new far side impact testing). Granted, the mobile barrier used was different (heavier and more car-like) and the test speed was higher, but the principle still holds. It's a very common occurrence in SUVs.
Thanks for clarifying. But in a way it also puts the test in perspective. That the impact is only measured at the primary level ,i.e. the effect of the barrier hitting the car. The secondary effects such as toppling, moving sideways, hitting other cars, people, larger objects along the road like poles, trees are not accounted for. That's why people need to really educate themselves that "x" Stars does not mean invincibility. In the Indian context especially, a lot more can happen after just the initial impact which will affect the vehicle and occupants.
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Old 11th November 2021, 06:20   #49
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Default re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

Very well done Mahindra.

This puts TATA in a very delicate situation with respect to the Harrier and Safari. I have even less regard for the Hyundai-KIA group who reduced the crashworthiness of their products for India in the name of cost-cutting.

I'd be keen to read/watch about what Mahindra did to consistently improve on the crashworthiness of their vehicles. This is commendable progress for a company that borrowed the Ford parts bin for the Scorpio switch gear.

Last edited by kiku007 : 11th November 2021 at 06:24.
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Old 11th November 2021, 07:33   #50
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Default Re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

Kudos to Mahindra!

Looks like a two-way contest between Mahindra and Tata, the rest not even in the fray. Mahindra takes the lead and how!!

While Tata made their cheaper offerings safer, the shadow of doubt looms over their reluctance to test their more expensive and larger twins. Now, the XUV700's feat is going to be hard to beat. Will they respond?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhdowntheline View Post
That's why people need to really educate themselves that "x" Stars does not mean invincibility. In the Indian context especially, a lot more can happen after just the initial impact which will affect the vehicle and occupants.
While "x" stars don't mean invincibility, it also prepares you for the worst possible outcome. You don't wear a t-shirt to a battlefield. You wear body armour. The armour will have its chinks too. But it can still keep you relatively safer. GNCAP ratings needs to be read in that context and nothing else. They can't play out every scenario that we possibly encounter. If they did, then they would have had to ram an S-Class onto the pillar of a flyover or bridge vertically and determine that it wasn't safe for Princess Diana to be in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarNerd View Post
Getting 5 star safety rating from GNCAP is like getting admission into IIPM rather than IIM which is the Euro NCAP.
Euro NCAP is considered the most stringent given the affluence of European countries, their highways, the speeds allowed etc. Latin NCAP takes into account the same for Latin American countries. While Global NCAP does it for developing nations. They are not inferior in any way. They will upgrade their tests as and when it is necessary, as and when our infrastructure and driving conditions change.

Last edited by discoverwild : 11th November 2021 at 08:03.
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Old 11th November 2021, 09:40   #51
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Default Re: XUV700 scores 5 Stars at GNCAP

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Originally Posted by CEF_Beasts View Post
PS: Have one question though, why didn’t the curtain airbags open in the side impact test, considering the variant was AX7L?!
It was very clearly said in one of the videos that the model tested was the AX3 considering that AX3 and MX share the same configuration in terms of safety. AX3. Basically there were only 2 airbags and hence there was no question of deployment of any side curtain airbags.

Reference video:


Last edited by pandabear : 11th November 2021 at 09:54. Reason: Added reference video
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Old 11th November 2021, 10:15   #52
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Default Re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

I just observed from the above list that Datsun Redigo, Swift, Wagon R scored better than the Seltos purely from a Points perspective. If certain aspects of the crash impact are interpreted differently for different cars then it should have a correlation between the qualitative ranking (Stars) and the numeric scores. This may lead to an impression of selective interpretation.
Or to make things equal, they should test a 2-airbag 2020 versions of all the low ranked cars and see the results. The baselining itself is wrong for the time because dual airbags were not mandatory when these cars were tested.

Last edited by fhdowntheline : 11th November 2021 at 10:29.
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Old 11th November 2021, 12:53   #53
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Default Re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhdowntheline View Post
I just observed from the above list that Datsun Redigo scored better than the Seltos purely from a Points perspective at 23.99 vs 23.03. If certain aspects of the crash impact are interpreted differently for different cars then it should have a correlation between the qualitative ranking (Stars) and the numeric scores. At this point, one interprets that a 3-star Seltos is qualitatively superior to a 1 Star Redigo, although the Redigo has a better numeric score.
I think GNCAP really needs to explain its scoring and ranking system better.
Note that this is not an official Global NCAP list for ranking. This one seems to be ranked by summing up the total scores for adult and child occupant protection.

Yes the redi-GO and the Kwid with a driver side steering wheel airbag and pretensioners should have scored three stars for adult protection purely based on summation of body region scores as well as application of modifiers, but there exists a 'star cap'.

If a critical body region (head, neck or chest) scores 0.000 points then a 'star cap' is applied.

To sum up the explanation I'll give below (for someone who doesn't want to read the entire thing), the score is capped at 0 stars if a body region scores 0.000 based on biomechanical injury directly, and 1 star if a body region scores 0.000 only after application of 'modifiers'.

For every body region there exists a 'lower performance limit' and a 'higher performance limit' for biomechanical injury readings (parameters used vary by body region). If the injury reading is less than the higher performance limit (which is a lower injury value), then the region is awarded the full 4.000 points (green) initially. If the injury reading is above the lower performance limit (which is a higher injury value) then the region is awarded 0.000 points (red) initially. If the value is between these limits then simple linear interpolation is used to determine the scores. For example, here is a graph I had made for chest compression in different NCAPs some time ago. Here 42mm or 50mm depending on the NCAP is the lower performance limit (worse) and 22mm is the higher performance limit (better).

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Left - Latin NCAP, Euro NCAP etc. and Global NCAP from 2022;
Right - Global NCAP till mid-2022


For the critical body regions (head, neck, chest) NCAPs also maintain what is known as a 'capping limit' for injury values, that is, the limit beyond which there is a high risk of life-threatening injury (these limits have been recommended by the EEVC, or the European Experimental Vehicles Committee). These limits are also incidentally the same as the maximum permissible injury limits to pass the ECE R94 (or in the case of India, AIS-098) homologation tests, though those are conducted at 56km/h.

Colloquially, capping limits are NCAPs' way of saying the dummy is 'dead', though they won't say this explicitly because they make no attempt to distinguish fatal injury from disabling injury because there are variables involved.

In the case of Global NCAP the capping limits for critical body regions are identical to the respective lower performance limits.

These scores are not the final scores for body regions. The score for each body region may be reduced based on 'modifiers', for example an unstable structure causes reduction of 1.000 point for the chest, footwell rupture causes loss of 1.000 point for the driver feet, and many more. The colours published in the test reports are based on the final scores after application of these 'modifiers'.

The first kind of star cap is the type applied to, for example, the front passenger's neck in the Maruti Suzuki S-Presso. This star cap is applied when the capping limits have directly been crossed based on biomechanical injury readings. In this case the entire ODB test score is reduced to 0.00/16 and since there exists a critical body region that is neither green nor yellow nor orange, the car does not qualify for seatbelt reminder evaluation either. Hence the entire test score is 0.00/17 for adult protection and the result is zero stars for adult protection.

The second kind of star cap is the type applied to the driver chest in the Renault Kwid (IV) and the Datsun redi-GO. In this case, the score for a critical body region purely based on injury readings is very low but not 0.000, but the score does become 0.000 after modifiers are applied. In this case the star rating for adult occupant protection is capped at one star regardless of total score, to prevent the car gaining multiple stars. For both cars the driver chest faced the integrity of passenger compartment (unstable structure) modifier which must mean that the biomechanical injury-based score was more than 0.000 but probably less than 1.001.

To sum it up in a very qualitative way that's easier to understand though not entirely factually correct, in a Datsun redi-GO the driver dummy is very likely dead due to chest injuries but their feet and tibias are very well protected. In the Kia Seltos the driver dummy might sustain foot/tibia injury but they're much more likely to be alive. Do you think it's still fair to give the Datsun redi-GO a three-star rating because of good foot protection?

I hope this helped.

The primary source for the above is Global NCAP's adult occupant protection assessment protocol which can be found in the 'About' section of their website.


On another, more on-topic note, it doesn't seem to be highlighted on this thread but Global NCAP also tested the XUV700's optional Autonomous Emergency Braking. This was more of an experimental test and not an official test, and there was no protocol used, it was just a consumer test like those used at Stop the Crash's demonstrations. Just static AEB tests using the pedestrian dummies and a vehicle target (not the Global Vehicle Target), and Alejandro Furas (Secretary General of Global NCAP) at the wheel. It's at the end of Car and Bike's video for those interested (timestamp 00:10:06).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaur View Post
may be they had a extra test vehicle of the higher spec already used for some other testing and decided to reuse it instead of wasting another usable variant.
Yes, it was the AEB test for which they purchased an AX7-L variant. And if I have to hazard a guess I think maybe the ESC/pedestrian protection tests too because I don't personally think they'll let go of the Safer Choice Award. NCAPs do use the pedestrian protection cars for side impact, like the Hyundai HB20 audited by Latin NCAP for side impact, which clearly had the test code of the pedestrian protection tests pasted on it (usually MDxxxxxxxx is for MDB side impact and PPxxxxxxxx is for pedestrian protection, but here PPxxxxxxxx was pasted on the side impact audit test car).

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Also, I managed to get the following communication from Mr Alejandro Furas of Global NCAP about common questions people are asking:
Quote:
Side airbags were disabled electronically but with jumpers that trick the electronics
Frontal, I can find out in the documents which engine.
As per our analisys weight difference is insignificant and into the tolerances allowed by Euro NCAP
I have asked for further details on the engine type if possible and I will post it here should I get a response.

I've also received confirmation that there will still be more Global NCAP results in 2021 though I'm not 100% sure they're for India (could be South Africa) though there's a high probability they are indeed for India.

Last edited by Aditya : 16th November 2021 at 05:30. Reason: As requested
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Old 11th November 2021, 13:03   #54
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Default Re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

Three cheers to Mahindra! It isn't easy to get a full 5 star rating for such a large SUV.

This and the other 5 stars from Mahindra and Tata is a big feat for the Indian car industry itself in so many ways.Mahindra and Tata are changing the very dynamics of the industry. This will force Marutis and Kias to stop taking us for a (unsafe) ride.
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Old 11th November 2021, 13:19   #55
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Default Re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

How does one compare Asean NCAP with Global NCAP?

What about Toyota's Fortuner and Innova Crysta: the latest generation models. It seems Fortuner is 5 star Asean rated.

Have they never been tested on Global NCAP or tested and fared poorly?
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Old 11th November 2021, 14:41   #56
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Default Re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

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Originally Posted by ron178 View Post
I hope this helped.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. If the rating is applied basis the possible injury impact to the occupants, then this does then also underscore the fact that secondary impact to the vehicle during road accident could influence the outcome of the occupant as badly as the initial impact in practical conditions.
Someone may be in a 5 star car, get into a frontal offset collision , be saved from that and then hit a tree or another larger car on the side, and get a worse injury from that.
So the Safety rating must be looked at only as an Indicative ability of the vehicle to protect the occupants during a certain set of events leading to an initial impact on specific areas of the vehicle. Everything else is a matter of circumstance and luck.
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Old 11th November 2021, 14:59   #57
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Default Re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

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Originally Posted by CarNerd View Post

Getting 5 star safety rating from GNCAP is like getting admission into IIPM rather than IIM which is the Euro NCAP.
Going to IIPM is lot better than failing in LKG though
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Old 11th November 2021, 15:23   #58
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Default Re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

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Originally Posted by Venkatesh View Post
Mahindra XUV700 secures five stars for adult occupant & four stars for child occupants in GlobalNCAP
Does this mean, both Diesel and Petrol vehicles were tested and certified?

When I test drove the car last month, I opened up the engine bay of the XUV700 and noticed that the the Diesel engine is different than XUV500, not just tuned for higher power and torque or different engine cover, although both are 2.2litre engines.

BTW, I felt as if the blue car bounced like a ball on frontal collision. And I guess the white one toppled after side impact. But in both cases, the cabin did not seem to have got much damages from inside.

I wonder why there were no oil, fuel or coolant leaks! In practical scenarios, I am sure there are fluid spills, smoke/vapour due to hot engine, and possibly even short circuits and random lights flashing (unless the protection devices kick in early and disconnect supply)

I guess the center of gravity is a bit too high. Should this be a concern on ugly turns or ghats with negative banking?

Last edited by Pulse500 : 11th November 2021 at 15:37. Reason: fluid leaks, smoke missing
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Old 11th November 2021, 16:28   #59
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Default Re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

I have noticed that people in remote areas are now warming up to idea of safety and considering non maruti cars (mainly tata, mahindra).
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Old 11th November 2021, 17:00   #60
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Default Re: Mahindra XUV700 scores 5 stars in the GNCAP

Mahindra and Tata have come a long way in improving safety. They seriously need to work on pre and post sales experience to dethrone the number 1 and 2 positions. All thanks to these two mass vehicle manufacturers, people are discussing safety in cars.

Well done Mahindra!
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