[ron178]

Originally Posted by krishnakumar

I'm sorry, you have me terribly confused across your multiple posts. Are you saying the test score has no bearing on whether the manufacturer has built a better chassis? I find it hard to believe that.

Achieving better structural performance in the test (and consequently the car-to-car crashes it is designed to represent) would require the passenger compartment to be strengthened but it would be a mistake to think that that does not mean it has to be separately designed for other crashes, even frontal ones. For example, in the IIHS' 25% overlap rigid barrier test passenger compartments collapsed not because of weak structure (they all did well in the 40% test) as much as bad design: the test intentionally misses the front longitudinal members and unless a car is designed to dissipate energy through the wheel arch and sill it would still do badly.

It's also worth noting that structure is far from the only thing that the results indicate. Of course, if the passenger compartment collapsed dummy readings would directly be affected but with a passenger compartment that holds it shape, even if it doesn't necessarily remain stable, dummy readings are likely to be unaffected. There are few penalties for structure: steering wheel movement, A-pillar movement, pedal movement and stability of the passenger compartment and footwell. Most of the assessment is still based on dummy readings, so a higher star rating does not imply better structural performance eg. structurally Jazz and Polo were as good as Altroz, the issues were with not having a dual pretensioning solution to protect knees of differently sized/seated occupants.

Originally Posted by krishnakumar

I understand that manufacturers design their cars keeping the tests in mind but aren't the tests themselves designed to represent "average" real-life situations?

TL;DR: not exactly, and definitely not in India.

To give you an idea (based on what I've read) of where this offset deformable barrier crash comes from:
Most of the research for car safety in the 1990s was for car-to-car crashes which is why the EEVC (a collaborative committee of European research laboratories) developed the deformable barrier to represent another car (much more realistic than a flat wall). Other crashes like underrides for example have always been deadly but (presumably based on consultations with the industry) it would be unreasonable to expect passenger cars to be designed around them.

1998 crash statistics (see page 2441) by TRL (UK) showed crashes showed that among frontal car-to-car crashes 50% of those in which there was ≥serious injury happened under 55km/h, and that's why the UNECE's R94 test (the 'European standard' Maruti harps about) takes place at 56km/h into a deformable barrier and requires dummy readings to indicate lower-than-moderate risk of serious or worse injury. In 1997 the FIA founded Euro NCAP, a consumer-testing programme, whose frontal impact simulated both cars travelling at ~55km/h (hence 64km/h into a deformable barrier) and asking for much lower injury criteria to score maximum points, less than a 5% risk of serious or worse injury, and also applying 'modifiers' (subjective penalties) to improve relevance. The IIHS also started a similar test in 1995, although their scoring framework is quite different. As every manufacturer strived to achieve five stars (good sales argument) the test became accepted as the "industry standard".

In 2010 the FIA (with technical help from Euro NCAP), started Latin NCAP to highlight how substandard vehicles in Latin America were, using the same 64km/h frontal offset deformable barrier test, no matter if Latin American crashes were possibly not remotely close to those in the UK in 1998. The idea was to use independent consumer-testing to encourage safer vehicle design even in weakly regulated markets by highlighting differences from European cars, and to expand it further Global NCAP started in 2011. In 2014 they meant to do a simple one-round experimental campaign for India based on Latin NCAP protocols, thankfully politics with Max Mosley and Datsun mean it survives to this day. But it's still that, a philanthropic campaign on a tight budget, aimed at showing consumers differences from European cars based on what was an 'average crash' in 1990s Europe. Definitely not 'average' in 2022 India.

Is it useless? Well, no, there are still some crashes that happen like that in India. Are you willing to give so much importance to a single crash, a quite infrequent one, at that? That's best left to the consumer. Me, personally, I'd rather have a car that's likely to prevent, or protect reasonably well in more types of crashes (still average European ones) rather than one that would protect extremely well but in just one, but it doesn't mean I don't care about the test: 0 stars would be a deal-breaker, but 4 or 5 stars wouldn't be a deal maker unless paired with other important crash protection and prevention tech (eg. top-end XUV300/700/presumably VW 2.0s, MGs, 5th-gen City). 3 stars paired with questionable 'other tech'? I don't think there's much wrong with demanding better from Kia.

Originally Posted by krishnakumar

I see the tests as certain standards. For example, like how we have building codes and thumb rules. Sure, it'll not work for all scenarios; anybody who thinks that is just fooling themselves. But it does represent the average and hence, it would matter.

You can't use American building codes in India if they're designed around wooden houses!

[Maverick1977]

Originally Posted by K_Drive

He ignored crash test rating for features and premium looks. That's when I realized overall looks and feels of interiors do matter a lot for a typical buyer. He don't care much about the crash test ratings and he will find his own justifications for the same.

What about problems like these:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...ltroz-dca.html

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...-6-months.html

Whenever I come across these issues, and they are definitely not one off I start thinking if it is worth buying these cars for safety reason alone?

[kaustavguha]

Originally Posted by Maverick1977

What about problems like these:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...ltroz-dca.html

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...-6-months.html

Whenever I come across these issues, and they are definitely not one off I start thinking if it is worth buying these cars for safety reason alone?

Sir, these are reasons which made me consider the Carens.

I am no safety expert, but to me peace of mind in the case of long term ownership is what i look for in a car.

All the Kia owners that I know have had a fuss free ownership experience, and that matters to me the most.

I can strech my budget and go for the Safari or the XUV 700, but i am more scared of the after sales service, rather than the safety ratings.

[RaviCar]

Originally Posted by Rohan265

In some cases, the size and depth of the crack can also be used to determine if an unbelted occupant loaded the airbag as it was deploying.

If the stated speed is true, it seems the bumper has hidden the real damage, especially to the cross-member. Thank you for sharing the additional information.

If you don't mind answering a further question, was the seat belt hanging loosely after the crash? i.e. the seat belt would not retract.

The Co Drivers Seat was vacant. The seat belts Retracted is my best guess(I will pay attention next time , hopefully there will be none.) , do not think there was any damage to the belt. What would this indicate.

The speed is true to best of my understanding.

[Rohan265]

Originally Posted by RaviCar

The seat belts Retracted is my best guess(I will pay attention next time , hopefully there will be none.) , do not think there was any damage to the belt. What would this indicate.

A retracting seat belt indicates that the pretensioner did not fire (assuming that the S-cross is equipped with seat belt pretensioners).
I asked because considering the minor vehicle damage (visible, at least) and the lack of pretensioner firing may indicate that the airbags deployed prematurely.

However, this is just speculation by looking at the photos and using the information you provided.
Thanks.

[ASHUJNMC]

Originally Posted by GTO

had expected Hyundai & Kia to wake up & improve matters after earlier GNCAP embarrassments.

They don't have any incentive to do so when Indian public buys the death boxes like hot cakes, and Govt doesn't mandate minimum Safety rating to sell in India.

Originally Posted by Arsenic

).

I believe the Venue/Sonet are based on a different platform, so hopefully those twins will be tested soon.

Sonet was tested and it scored 3 stars in GNCAP. So will Indian venue too.

Some say Carens is actually based on sonet platform

[Arsenic]

Originally Posted by ASHUJNMC

Sonet was tested and it scored 3 stars in GNCAP. So will Indian venue too.

Some say Carens is actually based on sonet platform

Wait, really? Do you have a link to the Sonet’s test?

Carens as far as I know is based on the Creta/Seltos/Alcazar platform, while the Sonet shares a platform with the Venue and i20 (I think).

[ASHUJNMC]

Originally Posted by Arsenic

Wait, really? Do you have a link to the Sonet’s test?

(I think).

https://www.carwale.com/kia-cars/son...eviews/291421/

[sreejithkk]

Originally Posted by ASHUJNMC

https://www.carwale.com/kia-cars/son...eviews/291421/

That link is just a user review. GNCAP never tested Sonet or Venue. I believe Creta, Seltos,Sonet, i20 all are based on K2 platform. However I don’t think platform alone decide the safety rating.

[Arsenic]

Originally Posted by ASHUJNMC

https://www.carwale.com/kia-cars/son...eviews/291421/

That’s odd, because G-NCAP hasn’t published anything on their YouTube channel or website regarding the Sonet.

For now, it’s best to use the i20’s 3-star rating as a guide for the Verna/Venue/Sonet until either of these cars are rated.

[ron178]

Sponsored endorsements of the Carens' safety have started pouring in all of a sudden, like the one Autocar published before the Carens' first GNCAP result.

And it's not just one or two: it's pretty much all major media:
Autocar (14 July): link
ZigWheels (18 July): link
Motoroids (20 July): link
Overdrive (20 July): link
carandbike (21 July): youtube dot com/watch?v=fnI4ivZE5s0&t=12s
CarWale (21 July): link
Car India (22 July): link

So I'm wondering if this could be true:

Originally Posted by ron178

I would expect the Carens to be reassessed against the new [GNCAP] protocols

The GNCAP does meet with the OEM to discuss the final result a while before publication, and that could possibly explain Kia sponsoring all those endorsements.

Estimating the Carens' rating under the new protocols (I'll be happy to show my working):
The Carens would need to have scored at least a little over 12.7 points in the side impact for four stars and Kia would also have to sponsor an ESC test and pedestrian impact tests and present in-house data from a side pole crash. It won't be zero stars (the GNCAP said it passed ECE95) but anything from one to four stars is mathematically possible although it looks like it'll be on the lower side unless - being optimistic - the endorsements are supposed to complement the upcoming GNCAP result rather than compensate for it.

Of course my speculation could be incorrect entirely and maybe the Carens isn't being reassessed at all.

[Maverick1977]

To all those who are cribbing bitterly about the Carens scoring a 3 star - no one is forcing you to buy it. You are living in a democracy, so go ahead and exercise your freedom of choice and buy something else.
There is no car which will give you EVERYTHING and if it does most probably it will be out of reach for most. There is nothing like a perfect human or a perfect car.

[sreejithkk]

Originally Posted by Maverick1977

To all those who are cribbing bitterly about the Carens scoring a 3 star - no one is forcing you to buy it. You are living in a democracy, so go ahead and exercise your freedom of choice and buy something else.
car.

There is also some thing known as freedom of speech. Everyone is free to voice their opinion on this forum. If we need to go by your logic, no one should discuss about the negative quality about any car/manufacturers, like interiors of Suzuki cars, reliability of VW cars because none of the manufactures till date forced anyone to buy their product. This thread is specific to the GNCAP rating of Kia Carens, and hence, in this thread people will discuss about that only. Going by your logic, no one is forcing anyone to read this thread. There is an official review thread and ownership thread for Carens, where good things about Carens are discussed.

[ron178]

The Kia Carens appears to have been retested by Global NCAP. Chilean media outlet Rutamotor has spotted a right hand-drive unit under pedestrian protection testing during a visit to the lab.





Link to source

[ron178]

Originally Posted by ron178

The Kia Carens appears to have been retested by Global NCAP.

Carens retest progress: Fresh side impact testing likely completed mid-August

Livestream by Peruvian journalist reveals test code on side impact cart.

MD3223KCA1 = Mobile Deformable Barrier test 32nd week of 2023 Kia CArens 1st attempt



Image Source: Revista Turbo (YouTube)