[BrakHorseBarhat]

Originally Posted by RahulNagaraj

Attachment 2589984

The sheer audacity of the company to suggest that there is nothing wrong with the car after someone almost lost their life due to the malfunction of their product...

I have said this before and I will say it again, when we try to automate things through complicated mechanisms we are just increasing the possibilities of failure. Especially in a country like India with its plethora of variables and obstacles to civilised driving.

While I would like to say there should at least be a warning before the system makes a major decision like that in order to maintain a driver's autonomy, however, I understand the challenges it poses in terms of emergency situations where there is no time to ask for permission. But at the very least there should be extensive testing of such systems in the region they are supposed to be released.

[raptor_diwan]

In my opinion, ADAS is also one of the features that was quickly taken to the road without proper testing, just to compete with other players in the market. Everything is good until such a problem occurs.

[TorqueKnight]

Originally Posted by RahulNagaraj

Attachment 2589984

All I need is adaptive cruise control, which would be a boon on highways. Apart from that I do not need any ADAS gimmick functionality. I do not think I will get convinced by ADAS in the immediate future. ADAS scares me.

[AutoAnalyst]

This is sad to see. Owning a City is making me concerned. Can you share details about the owner and/or the dealership the owner went to?

Originally Posted by RahulNagaraj

Thanks to Gautham for sending this in. Heartfelt gratitude for sharing it with other enthusiasts via this Team-BHP share page!

[minzanurag]

Scary indeed.

I shudder to think about instances where 2 wheelers which typically tail the cars on highways and are generally distracted (highway hypnosis?) as everything moves at a relatively high speed. On the highway, with a clear road up ahead and even with 4-5 car length distance, if a vehicle brakes suddenly, there is remote chance a 2 wheeler will be able to bring his vehicle to a complete stop without drama.

Obviously with cars getting more connected, seems a scary proposition.

Thanks for bringing this up. It will help keeping us alert for unknown lurking risks on the road.

[sudiptaadhya]

Originally Posted by Kevinrevvz

I apologise for the confusion.

Attachment 2590590

The Indian GLC is equipped quite differently to the one shown in the attached picture.

Only the cars equipped with the full ADAS suite such as the S Class, EQE and EQS are equipped with the (3) front radar which is used for the adaptive cruise control. These cars offer the whole driver assistance suite such as Distronic (ACC) and Active Steering Assist.

Cars equipped with this (3) front radar could be identified by a flat 2D Merc emblem in the front grille as opposed to a 3D chrome one.

I have the Indian GLC with the non-flat 3D front emblem and the snip is from my manual. My car has the entire suite of sensors (12 ultrasonic sensors, 5 radars and 5 cameras) described in the manual image along with AEB, ACC / Distronic (subscription costs INR 14k per year), Active Steering Assist and the full suite of assistance tools.

I think the dealer probably gave very wrong information

[sudiptaadhya]

Originally Posted by saket77

Excerpt From the Honda City Manual on this particular feature 'Collision Mitigation Braking System' of ADAS suite which Honda calls Honda Sensing: ( I am quoting only the relevant text selectively) Emboldening the text which I found important takeaways.

The system has 3 stages through which it undergoes. It first alerts the driver with a message on display and beep and if a corrective action is not taken, then the system applies the emergency brakes. One can change the distance (Long/Normal/Short*1, *2, Far/Normal/Near*3) between vehicles at which the system’s earliest collision alert will come on under the settings. However, depending on circumstances, the CMBS may not go through all of the stages before initiating the last stage.

Operating AEB with just a camera is very similar to the Boeing scandal that relied on 1 sensor for inputs to ACAS. As others said, just a fly or a leaf could give incoherent inputs to the camera. Even Hyundai is using radars - there is no reason why Honda cannot, other than trying to make small profits.

Separately, in many cars (observed in my Merc) if you select 'Late' for AEB the reaction time from the pre-alarm reduces significantly, and may skip brake boost and other actions. In some cases the manufacturer may not document this, while in other cases the owner may fail to read this in the manual and encounter unexpected rapid brakes.

[MyLife_MyCar]

Originally Posted by RahulNagaraj

Thanks to Gautham for sending this in.

If Mr. Gautham is reading this, do you have a dashcam installed? If yes, it will be helpful if you could share its recording around the time of the collision.

Originally Posted by Kevinrevvz

Regarding the camera vs radar based ADAS argument, even cars equipped with a radar often solely use the camera for AEB with the radar only being utilised for adaptive cruise. All Mercedes cars in India feature AEB that works purely using the camera in the windshield regardless of being equipped with a radar.

Originally Posted by sudiptaadhya

This is inaccurate information. Atleast for Merc, all cars from the A class has radars which are used for AEB and all driving assistance functions.

Forget about Merc (and other super premium cars). Even Hyundai cars use radar for Forward Collision Assist. Here's a pic from the owner's manual:


Cars relying solely on a camera for emergency breaking are just half baked cookies.

[shamanth]

Originally Posted by satish.gawai

I believe Honda's ADAS system works on the camera and not Radar, and hence it is not as accurate as the vehicle with Radar like Hyudai's or Tata's.

ADAS based on a camera system has its own disadvantages of performance under poor visibility, which does not seem to be in this case. That is the reason companies are going to Radar-based ADAS.

That is one of the main reason I went with Kia Seltos than Honda Elevate, comparing the two ADAS sensors. Honda has single point of failure if cameras malfunctions or obstructed, While Kia/Hyundai has multiple Radars and camera, so assuming its more reliable.

While Honda cars in India has fully Camera based ADAS sensors, Kia Seltos/Sonet or Hyundai Creta or Verna comes with ADAS functions using three radars, one ADAS camera and four peripheral camera systems.

Font Collusion/Emergency braking is tricky, its difficult to use it in bumper to bumper traffic, it can do a dead stop when you are even trying to cross the signal quickly if vehicles in front is too close.

But Kia/Hyundai has a option to set Front collusion warning only settings, where you can set only warning, it will beep and vibrate the steering wheel, also there is settings to change to sensitivity of sensor to Active and Late.

Below is some caution from Kia seltos manual on Camera and Radar, could also be likely cause on this collusion

• Never install any accessories or stickers on the front windscreen, or tint the front windscreen.
  
• Pay extreme caution to keep the front view camera dry.
  
• Never place any reflective objects (for example, white paper, mirror) over the dashboard.
  
• Do not apply license plate frame or objects, such as a bumper sticker, film or a bumper guard, near the front radar cover.

Source - https://www.kia.com/content/dam/kia2...hapter6_1.html

[satish.gawai]

Originally Posted by shamanth

That is one of the main reason I went with Kia Seltos than Honda Elevate, comparing the two ADAS sensors. Honda has single point of failure if cameras malfunctions or obstructed, While Kia/Hyundai has multiple Radars and camera, so assuming its more reliable.

While Honda cars in India has fully Camera based ADAS sensors, Kia Seltos/Sonet or Hyundai Creta or Verna comes with ADAS functions using three radars, one ADAS camera and four peripheral camera systems.

Fully Agree. Kia Seltos makes sense over Elevate any day if there is a budget. You will get not just proper ADAS but also more premium cabin and features.

As far as I know, both Kia and Hyundai are using single radar for ADAS functionality. Same for Tata's. 3 Radars are normally used in more expensive cars.

Thanks for sharing the link, it is nice to read how the system works.

Thanks.

[shamanth]

Originally Posted by satish.gawai

As far as I know, both Kia and Hyundai are using single radar for ADAS functionality. Same for Tata's. 3 Radars are normally used in more expensive cars.

Thanks.

They have 3 Radars, One in front and two in Rear corners.

That is why they have massive coverage while taking reverse and "Rear Cross-Traffic Collision-Avoidance Assist (RCCA)" works with precision. I personally saw how nicely it breaks when I was taking out my car out of the gate, when an silent electric scooter was coming down with high speed, Car brakes with RCCA even before scooter is visible on camera and after couple of seconds later Scooter passes behind.

Source - https://www.kia.com/content/dam/kia2...apter6_13.html

[saket77]

For peace of mind of owners, at least Honda should give an OTA update or via a software flash by service centers to at least switch off the CBMS/ auto-braking system permanently. In its current configuration, it can only be temporarily switched off till the car is restarted.

[skarthiksr]

Originally Posted by shamanth

That is one of the main reason I went with Kia Seltos than Honda Elevate, comparing the two ADAS sensors. Honda has single point of failure if cameras malfunctions or obstructed, While Kia/Hyundai has multiple Radars and camera, so assuming its more reliable.

While Honda cars in India has fully Camera based ADAS sensors, Kia Seltos/Sonet or Hyundai Creta or Verna comes with ADAS functions using three radars, one ADAS camera and four peripheral camera systems.

Well - Didn't we also see how Hyundai Tucson ADAS malfunctioned here - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-...ollision.html? (ADAS dangerous in India | Sudden, unexpected braking causes rear-end collision) So, till we pass all these different situation tests through multiple ADAS implementations and document the behaviour, it is impossible to conclude which is better in what scenario and which is a better solution overall. I have generally been very supportive of the automatic braking of the ADAS suite, because it can save pedestrian lives and prevent many fatal accidents due to drowsiness/attention miss, but as the days go, it doesn't seem to head in that direction, but rather more of a gimmick, to show it as just an attractive feature on paper.

Originally Posted by raptor_diwan

In my opinion, ADAS is also one of the features that was quickly taken to the road without proper testing, just to compete with other players in the market. Everything is good until such a problem occurs.

Completely agree on this. With this incident now reported, I am surprised to see that Honda still hasn't come forward to study what went wrong in this case. Same for other cases as well. We all acknowledge that India presents a very challenging scenario for these kind of features, and for this exact reason, I expected OEMs to put more R&D on this area, which unfortunately doesn't seem to have happened and the feature has been brought as-is. Though Intel CEO mentioned about making XUV700 ADAS adapting to Indian conditions (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post5190942 (Is India ready for ADAS & driver-assist systems?)), I am not very sure how much of it has gone into the product and how is the product evolving - something like are they releasing ADAS software upgrades as and when they keep testing in Indian driving conditions or getting feedback from service centers in case of malfunctioning ADAS.

[shamanth]

Originally Posted by skarthiksr

Well - Didn't we also see how Hyundai Tucson ADAS malfunctioned here - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-...ollision.html? (ADAS dangerous in India | Sudden, unexpected braking causes rear-end collision) So, till we pass all these different situation tests through multiple ADAS implementations and document the behaviour, it is impossible to conclude which is better in what scenario and which is a better solution overall.

Of course, if you switch-on all the ADAS feature like Front Collusion, Blind Spot Collusion prevention, inside the City as he mentions he was driving in NCR, this is bound to happen. We should be using front/blind-spot collusion prevention when driving in highway and warning(Beep & Steering Vibration in Hyundai/Kia) in city. Inside city with two wheelers zig-zagging within 1 meter around our vehicles, these things will kick in.

And many has used Adaptive cruise control inside city and got rear-ended with 4-car braking distance, even many test drive vehicles got damaged, so they switch-off all the ADAS feature for test drive. Good thing with Hyundai/Kia is that all ADAS settings will keep the last known settings, unlike some of the high-end cars which gets restarted with every engine start/stop.

Even in European countries, if you have driven in Italy, cars drive bumper to bumper and zig-zag like India, Or cities like Paris or Milan where Vespa's ride all over you, ADAS exists in many cars, but need to learn where and when to keep it switch-on/off.

[jacobsam]

On my visit to Goa a few months back, I too had this scary experience. Was travelling with the family. On one of the intersections, I saw an auto coming from my left. The car speed was around 30-35 km/hr. My car was on that intersection at that speed with this auto at least 20 feet away (at 90 degree angle) with no other traffic around. Suddenly sensing this auto, the car applies immediate brake and stops in the road. Fortunately, there was no one following us or it would have been catastrophic.

On the other hand, as I had shared on the Honda City Hybrid thread about our accident. It was slightly raining in the evening, our car hit the divider. The height of the divider was hardly one feet and so I couldn't see it due to weather conditions. No ADAS detected it.

So now I prefer that dad doesn't drive it and the driver or myself ferry him around. Additionally, I have trained him so that in case he has to take it anywhere, he cancels all ADAS function although it's a little difficult to remember each time.

Jacob