[Zed]

Not meaning to stray Off-Topic - lets assume that the family in question is aware of the risk. In the absence of a decent public transport system and the fact that they cannot afford a safer mode of travel like a car (I agree with Thad-E-G that a car is not that much safer if not driven properly with safety devices activated) - whats the alternative ? I do not mean to defend people that put their lives and the risk of innocent children at risk. Am just trying to think from their perspective. What could they have possibly done ? Left the infant and young child at home ? Not safe. Baby sitters ? Probably not an option considering the cost and social implications. Relatives ? What if there are none around.
This being the case should these folks limit their travel to when its extremely necessary and that too by public transport, no matter how inconvenient it is ? And boarding a bus with its first step 3 feet off the ground is not a benchmark procedure in terms of safety.
The moral of this story - widen the lens a little bit & its obvious that safety is the first causality in almost every sphere of our lives, with the possible exception of our workplace where there are systems and practises in place.

[noopster]

Look, with all due respect to you and the family in question, I don't give a DAMN how they get about. It is not my problem to solve. If, however, that bike ends up under my car's wheels for no fault of mine, it certainly becomes MY problem. And this is why I consider this a bad driving practice.

You know you can extend that logic to cover ANY situation: a 14-year old student riding his Scooty to school because there is no convenient bus, for example (I have heard this by the way!) Where do we draw the line?

When are people in this country going to learn that driving is a privilege and NOT a birthright? There are certain responsibilities that you need to undertake when you drive and if you can't take those on, DON'T DRIVE!

[selfdrive]

I cannot believe we are still having this discussion.
The last I heard a motorbike is meant to seat two and no more. Fuel tanks are not built to seat people and neither are foot stands on scooters meant for that purpose.

What next? To have double decker seating on cars on the roof because someone wants to transport 10 people and can afford only a 4 seater car?

noop, unfortunately the best we can do is to steer clear of such morons on the road. I dont want anybody else's shortsightedness/ immaturity/ lack of safety to affect my conscience. At the end of the day, even if there is another cause for it the blame for any accident will be conveniently passed on to the car driver.

Originally Posted by RaguHolla

By all means, even by law it is trailing vehicles problem rather than theirs! Law requires trailing vehicle driver to be sufficiently alert enough to avoid any accidents. Its not like they jumped under vehicle, they just fell. It was trailing vehicles fault that he couldn't stop, he should have kept distance!
However its entirely different subject, practical to practice this in real life.

By law, bikers should not seat 4 on the bike. I dont understand how the law can be applicable for the trailing car driver and not for the biker overloading his bike

[RaguHolla]

Originally Posted by noopster

If, however, that bike ends up under my car's wheels for no fault of mine, it certainly becomes MY problem. And this is why I consider this a bad driving practice.

By all means, even by law it is trailing vehicles problem rather than theirs! Law requires trailing vehicle driver to be sufficiently alert enough to avoid any accidents. Its not like they jumped under vehicle, they just fell. It was trailing vehicles fault that he couldn't stop, he should have kept distance!

However its entirely different subject, practical to practice this in real life.

[Zed]

Originally Posted by noopster

Look, with all due respect to you and the family in question, I don't give a DAMN how they get about. It is not my problem to solve.

From this perspective - I agree with you a 100%.

The root of the problem is that the authorities in-charge also seem to have the same attitude. The density of vehicular population, the variety of vehicles plying side by side coupled with a non existing driver training and licensing system is the best way I can sum up the traffic situation in India. I have no answers either.

Im fairly certain that ive strayed off topic already!

Im among the advocates of the fact that driving is a privilege and not a right. But one cannot wish away the fact that not all road users are equals. I certainly see a difference between an idiot in an SUV that does not follow traffic regulations on account of his\her vanity, contempt and indifference in contrast to a family of 4 on a two wheeler on account of reasons that have nothing to do with any of the above mentioned factors.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by Zed

Not meaning to stray Off-Topic - lets assume that the family in question is aware of the risk. In the absence of a decent public transport system and the fact that they cannot afford a safer mode of travel like a car (I agree with Thad-E-G that a car is not that much safer if not driven properly with safety devices activated) - whats the alternative ? I do not mean to defend people that put their lives and the risk of innocent children at risk. Am just trying to think from their perspective. What could they have possibly done ? Left the infant and young child at home ? Not safe. Baby sitters ? Probably not an option considering the cost and social implications. Relatives ? What if there are none around.
This being the case should these folks limit their travel to when its extremely necessary and that too by public transport, no matter how inconvenient it is ? And boarding a bus with its first step 3 feet off the ground is not a benchmark procedure in terms of safety.
The moral of this story - widen the lens a little bit & its obvious that safety is the first causality in almost every sphere of our lives, with the possible exception of our workplace where there are systems and practises in place.

Oh, please. Today, in a city like Bangalore, public transport is very convenient and actually pretty good. They are generally on time, give or take 5 minutes, and they're pretty fast. And 70% of the buses in Bangalore now boast low-floors for easy entry and exit. The buses are clean and efficient, and there are plenty of them, so the frequency is more than satisfactory. They connect almost every part of the city. You have to walk a maximum 200 meters to reach a bus-stop. They're very reasonable too, in terms of fare. Bus passes are dirt cheap!

And the upcoming Metro would be great too, and should boost the system as well.

People need to understand the value of safety.

Now, people buy two-wheelers and ferry their entire family with them, on it, for the sole purpose of convenience. If you put a price on convenience over safety, then you just lack common sense (by you, I don't mean YOU, I mean, generally )

Nobody is stopping you from buying a two-wheeler. Just use it for its intended purpose, correctly, without flouting the rules of the road, and inconveniencing everyone else around you and endangering your life, and others'.

* People who don't respect their lives and the lives of others on the using the road, are bad drivers/riders.

[IronH4WK]

last evening when returning home from office i saw a teenager (probably just 15-16yrs old) near my home riding a brand new CBR250R (not even registered) clad in t-shirt, shorts and chappals and with no helmet. he wasn't exactly riding rash, just being carelessly moving about on the road.

[Zed]

@ Suhaas - Sure Bangalore has relatively good public transport systems and the general public must use the same rather than risk life & limb by overloading two wheelers.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Zed

(I agree with Thad-E-G that a car is not that much safer if not driven properly with safety devices activated) - whats the alternative ? I do not mean to defend people that put their lives and the risk of innocent children at risk. Am just trying to think from their perspective. What could they have possibly done ? Left the infant and young child at home ? Not safe. Baby sitters ? Probably not an option considering the cost and social implications. Relatives ? What if there are none around.

Well, I wanted to draw attention to the illusory safety of the car, and the great danger that an unbelted person of any age is in when the travel in one.

Really, though, someone should have taken me up on my words, because world-wide, the motor bike is the form of transport one is most likely to get killed using. And, yes ... that is what we are talking about not only using, but putting babies and families to the most extreme risk by overcrowding*. Babies and bikes should never mix, overcrowded or not. A young child should never be seen standing on the footboard of a scooter while mum drives.

Noopster puts it bluntly --- but he's right.

Look, with all due respect to you and the family in question, I don't give a DAMN how they get about. It is not my problem to solve. If, however, that bike ends up under my car's wheels for no fault of mine, it certainly becomes MY problem. And this is why I consider this a bad driving practice.

And, selfdrive, I can only believe we're having this conversation because we have before ... and we will again.

It's an Indian solution, but it is not an Indian problem. So-called-richer countries have plenty of people at the bottom of the financial heap, even the countries with welfare benefits have families that are barely able to find the necessities of life. They do not crowd six on a bike. If they do, they get arrested. It's that simple.



*Applying the word overcrowding to a 0ne-or-two-person carrier is so surreal that it would be hilarious if it wasn't so awful!

[sumathindra]

On my way to the office today near delmia circle signal i was waiting for the light to turn green. Came a white indigo taxi on my right and his left orvm hit very badly on my right orvm .

All i did was asked the driver who looked like a thug "do you know to drive and is this your car"? He was fuming however he did not have it in him to raise his voice as it was his mistake. I quickly checked if my mirror was OK and was relieved to see it was just fine. This was a cab for AXA!!!

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

And, selfdrive, I can only believe we're having this conversation because we have before ... and we will again.

I guess this conversation will keep entering a loop till we have people who sympathise with these morons who endanger their own life and property and that of others too.

Originally Posted by sumathindra

All i did was asked the driver who looked like a thug "do you know to drive and is this your car"? He was fuming however he did not have it in him to raise his voice as it was his mistake. I quickly checked if my mirror was OK and was relieved to see it was just fine. This was a cab for AXA!!!

You could report it to the AXA transport desk. Most of the guys at transport desks are anyway looking for a reason to dock these errant (and sometimes arrogant) drivers. You will need the date/ time/ place of the accident and the car regn number.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Oh, please. Today, in a city like Bangalore, public transport is very convenient and actually pretty good. They are generally on time, give or take 5 minutes, and they're pretty fast.

Is it a joke you are making.
I decided to try out the legendry low floor buses of bangalore.
We were stuffed like sardines. At some points the doors could not close, so the conductor came outside, pushed the people in with all his might so that doors could close. I would welcome you to try getting in such a bus with a child in your arms.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Is it a joke you are making.
I decided to try out the legendry low floor buses of bangalore.
We were stuffed like sardines. At some points the doors could not close, so the conductor came outside, pushed the people in with all his might so that doors could close. I would welcome you to try getting in such a bus with a child in your arms.

No, Sir. Not a joke.

It is true that the buses tend to get very crowded especially during peak hours. But it is public transport after all. BMTC is doing whatever they can to meet the requirements of the city. We get new buses every 6 months, and the routes are improved time and again.

During peak hours, it will get very crowded, and there isn't much we can do about it. It is public transport, after all. But in comparison, it's miles ahead of most other public-transport systems in other towns and cities in India.

Being a student, I've had a fare share of bad and good experiences in the buses in Bangalore. There have been times when I've been thrown off the bus while it was on the move! And times when I've had the door close while I'm half way inside the bus! There have been times when I've not been able to get a seat for hours, and times when I get onto the bus and there is a seat waiting for me, right where I'd like it!

Things are improving, and things will only improve from here on.

The only grouse I have with the BMTC is the drivers they employ. They are uncouth, rash and don't respect anyone on the road. Not even those who want to get onto the bus!

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

N

During peak hours, it will get very crowded, and there isn't much we can do about it. It is public transport, after all. But in comparison, it's miles ahead of most other public-transport systems in other towns and cities in India.

It does not matter if its better or worse. All that matters is that can you get to your house without getting molested for 1 hour.
If you can't its not a good public transport system. It does not matter if they get a bus every 6 days.
BLR needs public transport because roads are horrible. Many other cities without public transport have better roads and less traffic.
Some cities like Delhi have equally good public transport.
As for bikers carrying their infants on tanks, thats pure moronic. How expensive is a harness? 1000rs? Even if you started selling those, I doubt many bikers will buy it

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

It does not matter if its better or worse. All that matters is that can you get to your house without getting molested for 1 hour.
If you can't its not a good public transport system. It does not matter if they get a bus every 6 days.
BLR needs public transport because roads are horrible. Many other cities without public transport have better roads and less traffic.
Some cities like Delhi have equally good public transport.

With all due respect, Sir, the buses in Bangalore aren't as bad as you make them seem to be. And I can vouch for it! I used to take the bus during the fag-end of my schooling and for the first few years of my college life. Nothing beats the convenience of a car, or a two-wheeler. That said, the public-transport system in Bangalore is really really good. It isn't 24X7 crowded.

Your opinion is based on a one-time experience, where as, I've been a regular for 4 years, and have traveled to all parts of the city by bus, and had to change 4 buses every day, and it definitely isn't as bad as you say it is.

In fact, I'd recently taken a bus to college since my car had been given for a routine service, and I was pleasantly surprised by the changes and improvement. The conductors now communicate better, the buses stop completely and make sure that the passengers have gotten into the bus before driving off, and the newer buses have plenty of room for passengers. I'm 6'2" and I've always had a problem while sitting and standing, but not anymore!

The Volvos are a boon too! Not only are they reasonably priced, they connect some of the most distant parts of the city and ensure you a comfortable ride. Like I said, it's only the drivers that need a dressing-down.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

As for bikers carrying their infants on tanks, thats pure moronic. How expensive is a harness? 1000rs? Even if you started selling those, I doubt many bikers will buy it

I don't believe a harness would help much. The thing is, when one is on a two-wheeler, you're exposed to the elements of the outside world, by default. The dust, the pollution and the traffic. One wrong move, and you could find yourself on the road, and in the path of a car, or worse, a bus! How will a harness help in such a situation?

They'd be better of leaving the child behind, or opting for another mode of travel. But they would like to think otherwise. For them, it's all about saving as much as they can. So when people don't buy ISI marked helmets and buy cheap low quality helmets from the road-side, at a price of 300, I don't expect any one of them to shell out 1000 bucks for a harness.