[Rehaan]

Originally Posted by Guna

...Regarding the belt, isnt it just used to secure the child seat in place and it doesnt really put around the child?

That is correct. As i had mentioned in my first post.
When the child is a certain height/weight and begins to use a "booster seat" (its just like a cushion that raises the childs seating position) thats when they use the OEM seatbelt in the car.

Originally Posted by dr_know

Great reply. i like the fact that you have addressed all the flaws in his justification for it being a hazard than a safety benefit.

Thank you. I did not want to risk the possibility of impressionable readers getting the completely wrong idea, and hence wanted to set the record straight.

Originally Posted by ariendj

a good move by the Govt. but im sure many other features such as airbags should be made mandatory too.

The difference between what is included here (read my last para) and airbags is a SIGNIFICANT sum of money. (100x the cost if i had to hazard a guess). Thats the reason why.

Originally Posted by HKP

...
Explanation about US car seat regulations are here.

AAP - Car Safety Seats: A Guide for Families - 2008

Useful link! Thanks.

Originally Posted by Bigzero

Steven Levitt of Freakonomics fame gives an interesting set of statistics on child seats. ( It doesnt present a full picture, but gives some food for thought.. )

Very interesting video, but do note that he is talking about children past a certain age (2yrs old).
Below 2yrs of age there is no doubt child-seats have the advantage, above that - like you said - inconclusive from his basic research.

Originally Posted by Bouncer

...If one uses it like that (center of rear seat) with all the neccessary belts and buttons used of course, to secure the babyseat to rear seat and baby to the babyseat. Will it be safer than baby sitting at any of the passenger seat without a babyseat, in an event of collision/crash?

Yes ofcourse!!
Guaranteed if your baby is <2yrs old.
Once your baby is older than 2, there is some debate as to whether its make a difference or not - but is definitely does not make things worse.

Originally Posted by throttleking

I can not understand certain things. If you realise the need of it then why not make it happen today? why do you need to wait till 2010?

I think you (as well as a lot of others here) have misinterpreted the article.
[either that, or i have ]
Read my last para.

Originally Posted by GTO - Touring

...Just look up PROVEN RESEARCH....

Check out the NHTSA website. Apparently they have records of EVERY accident in which there was atleast one fatality in the USA since the 1970s!

Home | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration(NHTSA) | U.S. Department of Transportation


LAST PARA:

It seems a lot of people here have misinterpreted the article to mean :
- Police will be making sure your child is in a child seat
- Cars will come with these big-plastic-tub like child-seats from the showroom itself.

What the article really says (from my understanding atleast) is :
Car manufactures will now have to provide a system of buckles, belts and solid anchorage points to enable the future use of a child-seat, if required. A "childseat" will NOT be included - it is supplementary to the system.

Heres what the "CRS" will be :


Source: Transport Canada - Road Safety - Test Method 213.1 — Infant Restraint Systems




Source: How to fit a child restraint in a vehicle

I hope i got that right.
cya
R

[aah78]

Originally Posted by sameel

the comments that i make are only mine

Ofcourse they are, and you're entitled to express.

But consider this -> If a child had a 10% higher chance of surviving a crash using a car-seat, than without, wouldn't you take it, or you would you rather not? Why ditch safety in the name of convenience?

Blaming the government and traffic cops is all well and good, and we all love doing that, but think about it - won't it be one more small step towards safety?

Our roads and drivers are know world-wide for being lawless and murderous, but when someone wants to try to rectify the situation we proudly want to oppose them by saying "We are like that only!".

You've generalised all Indians as a bunch of crazy speed freaks who care nothing for their kids, while in this thread your posts have been countered by a bunch of Indians who don't follow your thought-process.

Not saying you won't find people who agree with you whole heartedly. Ofcourse you will, but don't drag the rest in with your lot.

For every maniac on the road, there is a safe driver who follows rules. Which one would you rather be known as?

[Bouncer]

Thanks Rehaan for all that info. My baby is one & half months old. First thing I will be getting for my baby is a babyseat now.

Rehaan & GTO, Where can I get one here in Pune or Mumbai? I frequently visit Mumbai. Any brand in particular? I use Indigo XL on highways and Estilo in city.

[Rehaan]

Good to hear that Bouncer!

Originally Posted by Bouncer

...Where can I get one here in Pune or Mumbai? ...

Please continue in one of the following threads :

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...e-gurgaon.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...seat-kids.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...ard-signs.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/introd...t-systems.html

cya
R

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by Bouncer

Just one one question. Two actually. Do you feel pride in saying Indians are like that? Why?

Safety starts from person who is behind the wheel. If he/she is not having good sense, then whatever input we give, in this case through law, the output wont improve and this is the reality.
I am not doing business with an Indian citizen's safety, but believe that if the same amount of resources that will be spent to implement and keep this law in check are spent at the basic level like RTO, etc. then our basic thinking will improve and then automatically things like child seat will come into execution by public.

Originally Posted by pranavt

People always have a choice. These seats, becoming OEM soon will give them one more choice. It's your responsibility to follow it or not. Why blame cops for it?

Between having the kid in your lap in the front seat in a car with front airbags or having him/her in the rear seat buckled up properly, you decide which one's safer, even relatively.

I am not blaming cops,but in way I am rather blaming the Indian people to be so ignorant that things like seatbelts etc are to forcefully implemented.
And in India there are so many laws that if we start following them we can barely survive. From the above point in your post, I meant that this will give them reason to them to make money. And this is infact reality.
If its my responsibility for safety, then why there has to be rule in the first place ?

Originally Posted by amit

75% of accidents in India happen because of unsafe road design, poor roads, almost nil traffic signalges on roads and inadequately lit roads at night time. Guess whose responsible for all of the above?

The fact is a bit surprising . Expresshighway ( National Expresshighway - 1, i.e. NE-1 is the one we mostly use between Vadodara-A'bad ) are designed for speeds of 120 kmph (we all know this ),but then lets say they are not built in quality manner, so the safe limit is kept 100kmph ( atleast on NE-1 it is 100 ). If everybody stick to their speeds and lane driving will the accidents be in same quantity ? NO.

All points mentioned by you remain, but the biggest reason is the human in control of automobile. If we improve this, most of our problems would be gone.


The point I am trying to make is let us act on the root cause and IMHO, the root cause is the thinking level and discipline. This wont help in any manner. Trust me I have seen a 4 year old kid ( approximate age ) sitting in his father's lap and father is driving plus not wearing seat belts. I have seen this in cars ranging from Maruti 800 to Toyota Camry. Its true, I am not joking and in no mood to joke. And people who see this appreciate this and say " look he just loves his child so much ". This thinking has to go or else n number of laws wont make a difference to safety.


O.T. Regarding obeying the rules, let me ask you all, did you not break the speed limit at expresshighway ? Whenever in city when you observe speed limit board, do you always obey it. I know many do,but then eventually are we not breaking law ? Lets say 120 is the max speed for the road, but then after crossing that speed are we not putting our lives at risk ?

[sameel]

you guys seem to be the ones following all the rules and stuff. as if thats possible??

@GTO i am not foolinsh enough to drink and drive!!
yes i was in the gulf were the rules are extra extra strict there also i never had to break any laws because they are sensible!

expressways limit is 120kmph! and interstate no speed limit!

not like here, with out even making seatbelts compulsary first thing is baby seats. what crap!
and just to get the record straight i have had a bad crash @140kmph!! came out unscratched! and yes CAR was a total wreck. MY SEAT BELTS SAVED ME.! the steering would have crushed by lungs if didnt have them. a tractor took an uturn from my leftside so you can imagine what i could have done!. nothing went and crashed like hell!

all i wanted to say was first make sure of the Standard Safety measures as simple as seatbelt and ABS and then Airbags in this order . here all of a sudden babies are important??...why this logic.i hate it to the core!

i speak what my head thinks and i dont intend to get into good books of anyone
dont need them. thank you

and yes like you said being in a situation as mine.
just going to be 25yrs old. Great Job. nice car etc etc . i am not in the mindset of thinking about safety of a baby! right now. elderly people like you guys have a valid point and hence you guys see me as irresponsible and stupid!! let it be. i have no issues..
i dont allow infants inside my car only my nephwes who agree to put seat belt!!

i became an engineer by my own hard work and here people are telling a guy who designs safety systems that baby seats are more important!! i just cannot accept this logic.

and GTO sir a C Class benz has the sensor you see. but what about the normal cars like swift? or SX4 ?? you really think that this thing will be cheap! its costly thats why they are found in benz car and not indian cars!

like i said saying is easy design and implementation is another ball game!! and implementing a law is like a two sided knife you never know whom it will cause more damage to..

yes when the time comes i have a baby and i have to travel with them o will do all to ensure safety. includin a baby seat! but that doesnt mean i will go easy on the main safety features! never..

and in no way i am generalising all indians. i speak only for myself.

i drive a car the way it is meant to be.
when i drive an 800 i drive max 80kmph not more than that thought the car will go more..

i follow the simple fundas for safety.
seat belts if you have abs then i do steer while i break.
if not i pump the brakes and make it a point to never steer the car while braking as this will make the car skid!!

i do speed a lot but only on the highways.
inside city i let even the so called omni. 800, auto wallas to pass by, even when i drive the Accord or the E-class.

the problem with me is i dont keep things silent if i feel that a thing is being hyped while it is still not needed i speak out for myself thats all!!

[Guna]

Originally Posted by sameel

not like here, with out even making seatbelts compulsary first thing is baby seats. what crap!

This is not true. Seatbelts are compulsary in many states/cities. At least in Bangalore it is compulsary. But yes, it is not enforced strictly.

[sameel]

yeah thats the whole point!
even in cochin i have a hard time getting my co-passenger to put the seat belt.

its only compulsary for driver!!!.

i start driving like crazy inside city and scare my co-passenger to put them on

[dr_know]

Originally Posted by sameel

yeah thats the whole point!
even in cochin i have a hard time getting my co-passenger to put the seat belt.

its only compulsary for driver!!!.

i start driving like crazy inside city and scare my co-passenger to put them on

You speak for yourself, which is a totally acceptable. See this rule is not meant for 1 or 2 but for all those who have a child as a passenger, so you criticizing it is unacceptable.

You have a valid point saying that people don’t wear seat belt and are hesitant to wear it in India, but when they get in your car (which is yours only because of your hard work) it’s totally and completely your right, irrespective of your relation to that person to ORDER them to wear it or get out of your car (at least that’s what I do) which can be done politely or impolitely as long as it gets the job done!

Safety is paramount; it is not something you should change as per your needs.

Your age reflects your attitude; it’s not your mistake but the failure of your ability to perceive good & bad (in effect safe & unsafe).

You said that seat belt saved your life, then why are you saying a baby seat/booster is not required? Is it because you don’t deem a child’s life to be of any importance as yours?

SAFETY BEGINS WITH YOU!

[nkapoor777]

I bought an infant car seat from Mothercare for my one-month old (well bought it before he was born). Now I intend using it mostly in my Wagon R (wifey's daily drive). I tried to instal it in Wagon R yesterday but couldn't really get the seat belt around it fasten it properly. Here is the one I bought from Shoppers Stop.

ShoppersStop.com - Mothercare Travel Tot car seat- Optic

Now I didn't try it earlier because the seat belt harnesses were all buried under the rear seat (sine they weren't being used earlier). Can anyone help me with this? I am thinking about going to MASS to ask them if they can fit a longer seat belt to accomodate the car seat? Any other suggestions?

[Nitin]

Definitely a good thing to implement. My only fear is- Would people understand and appreciate the usage of these baby seats, and would they be willing to invest in them at the cost of losing space in their vehicles?

Also, are the seats compatible with Indian cars ?

[rjvora_2000]

I think this is a very nice investment to do.

[enzo10]

Originally Posted by nkapoor777

I bought an infant car seat from Mothercare for my one-month old (well bought it before he was born). Now I intend using it mostly in my Wagon R (wifey's daily drive). I tried to instal it in Wagon R yesterday but couldn't really get the seat belt around it fasten it properly. Here is the one I bought from Shoppers Stop.

ShoppersStop.com - Mothercare Travel Tot car seat- Optic

Now I didn't try it earlier because the seat belt harnesses were all buried under the rear seat (sine they weren't being used earlier). Can anyone help me with this? I am thinking about going to MASS to ask them if they can fit a longer seat belt to accomodate the car seat? Any other suggestions?

I feel mothercare assistants should be able to help you out in installing the seat just check with them before heading to MASS

[navin]

Originally Posted by sameel

in the european cars they have sensors that detect the presence of a baby seat and accordingly the seat belts are pretensioned!
trust me when i say this this is INDIA .. not europe.
seat belts mostly in european cars specially desinged so as to be compatible with baby seat!
you guys see only the safe side . i am seeing the technical side!

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Are you trying to say that child-seats make it MORE dangerous for children??
The ideal place for a child-seat is the rear-center (or diagonally across from the driver). If the child seat is placed in the center (where it should be) the seat-belts are not even ELR, so there is no question of pre-tensioning!

Im not sure, but i think for much younger infants the seat is to face backwards (since their necks shouldnt have to deal with the greater deceleration forces of regular braking), and when they are older/stronger you can have the seat facing forwards.
Typically when a child is 3-4yrs and 40+lbs they switch from a child-seat to a booser seat. This prevents the top strap of the seatbelt from going across their neck/face -- which makes a big difference in the case of an accident.

Anyway, what about children from ages 2 and down? There is no way they can sit in a standard car seat/booster seat with a seatbelt!! Child-seats are designed specifically for them.

Originally Posted by Bigzero

Steven Levitt of Freakonomics fame gives an interesting set of statistics on child seats.

Originally Posted by sameel

now i know babies are more important than the passengers inside a car.
Bosch should make baby seats instead of ABS units!!

and please show me a car in india where one can simply turn off the Air babgs when a baby seat is kept in front.

When our son was born we had car seats fitted into each of our cars. My wife's Opel Sail had a Britax, my Skoda Octy had a Graco and our spare car (a Opel Astra) had an Evenflo.

These car seats were desgined for children upto 40lbs (about 18kgs). The were such that they faced backwards till the child was about 2 years old and forwards once the child was big enough.

All 3 car seats we set up in the rear seat diagonally behind the driver. My wife who was chauffered would sit directly behind the driver. When you set up a car seat the instructions of each of these car seats detailed that the seat belt be strung through the car seat and tightened as thight as possible so that there was as little play as possible. The child seat had what looked like a 5 point harness for the child. Hence the child was nice and snug in the car seat and the car seat itself had the lap and shoulder belts clamping it down as tightly as possible.

Once our son turned 4 we noticed that the a the regular lap and shoulder belt with an added soft padded insert for the shoulder worked best. On most occasions our son still sits in the rear and not in the passenger seat even if it my wife or I who is driving and the front passenger seat is empty. In all but side impacts the rear seat in a sedan is far safer than any front seat (assuming that all passengers are properly belted). Side impacts depend a lot on exactly where the car is impacted.

Sameel, from what I understand, on no occasion does any manufacturer of car or car seats recommend that any child under the age 12 be allowed to sit in the front. We here are discussing the safety of the child and that in my view out weighs all engineering considerations.

Steve Lewitt does not address the issue of children under age 2. If you have bought a car seat for a child of age 0-2 and the same seat works till the child is 4 why not continue to use the car seat if it atleast as safe as a lap & shoulder belt. Atleast the car seat raises the child to where the child can see out of the window and entertain him/herself.

As far as booster seats go I am not as sure. From the one test I did with my son and his friend (both were about 4) under hard braking (no accident impact but very hard braking in a controlled enviroment) the booster seat seems not to have helped at all and maybe could have even slipped out from under the child if the severe decellaration of an impact was experienced.

My opinion is that:
a) under age 2 a car seat is still the safest bet
b) above age 4 a booster seat is just as effective under hard braking
c) if the car seat bought for the child aged 0-2 is SAFELY usable till age 4 (18kgs) why not continue to use it after all it is not an additional investment and the child does get to enjoy the scenery.
d) We do not know the motive behind Steve Lewitt's demonstaration. Does he have any relation to the new seat patent he is proposing? I am not being a cynic, just debating what his motivation is.

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

I am startled by a large number of comments on this thread against the proposal. Where are we, as a community, heading to?

Some sickening comments; (1) this will make money for somebody. (2) implementation is difficult (3) should do x, y or z before implementing this.

Sorry guys, I disagree with those views, and here is why.

1. When you buy a car,somebody makes money off you. When your car's manufacturer puts in seat belts, or air bags, again, somebody else makes money. When you pun in horns, somebody makes money, again. This argument is a no-op.

2. Implementing any law is difficult. Not just traffic offences. Does that mean we should have no law at all? Just look at the posts here

3. Other infrastructure is definitely required. Not just roads - good sign gages, and a willingness NOT to use road signs as hoardings. So many things are wrong with our roads, traffic, licensing and ourselves. Saying "fix that before you fix anything else" will not take us anywhere.

That said, I fail to see why the baby seat should be compulsory on all cars. AFAIK, it is compulsory only when babies are carried. For example, why should somebody above 60 years be compelled to buy a baby seat? Why should a bachelor have a baby seat in the car? That would be sheer waste.

And finally - why the baby seat in goods vehicles? I think this is a case of blindly copying rules from other countries. Govt., please get down to the ground. Only place we carries babies on our goods vehicles are on the platform - not inside the driver's cabin.