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21st June 2009, 09:55 | #46 | |
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2) Forget that for a moment, but can anybody please share some information that quality of cars is the same ? Proof they are not the same : There are sufficient threads here on quality of cars being not good, plastics peeling off, rattles, etc. 3) Again there is no scientific evidence of either point, but I have a few words, drive a CBU ( I have done it once, the car was Camry ) and automatically you will come to know what is difference. 4) I expect you refer to my images in this very thread. The Honda city is sufficient proof. And dont come up with arguments like " they are meant to crumple ", etc. What when the same car collides with a GV ? 5) That is reality IMHO. Rubber, plastic parts are proof of that and also how manufacturers can act in India. Again there are threads on this too. 6) Nice kind and caring words. But there is something called observation and brain power. Drive any car which has done 60K kms. on bad roads, then drive a brand new car ( same model ). You will realize if that is butt-o-meter or brain power. 7) Show me one single fact where data is on acceptable standards. What is the amount of data any manufacturer provides ? I think if they are so sure about what they are upto, why not provide sufficient data themselves ? 8) I think I am also aware of TBHP reputation. What I have posted is my feelings based on what I have seen and experienced. And I am not the first person to speak that quality of Indian cars is not as good as their developed market versions. Last edited by aaggoswami : 21st June 2009 at 09:57. | |
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21st June 2009, 10:39 | #47 |
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| The A-star tested had only two airbags. A-star's nearest competitor, i10 was tested with 4 airbags. Definitely, the ratings for A-star would be better with 4 airbags. Also I am attaching a picture of both i10 and A-star from EuroNcap. Here one can clearly see that A-star's A-pillar is not showing deformation as i10's A-pillar. Again this is to prove the point that A-star is not unsafe as we have concluded in this thread. Most of the i10/A-star that are sold in India will be either without airbags or with just two airbags. Here are the pictures: A-star : Here you can that A-pillar is not showing much deformation. I10: Here you can see how the A-pillar has deformed. Now as far as my knowledge goes, A-pillar is a critical member that is part of cabin that is not designed to crumple. Cabin is designed such that it does not deform and prevents intrusion. But here the A-pillar has deformed. |
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21st June 2009, 15:24 | #48 | ||||||||
BHPian Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Karnataka, India
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For example, Maruti is only now offering safety features which were offered on a Benz or Volvo generations ago. Is a Maruti always safer than a Benz? Is a Benz always safer than a Maruti? There is only one way to be sure. Crash them in a scientific manner inside a lab where many of the variables can be controlled and examine the data. We should not draw conclusions solely from real-world crashes because we do not know all the facts and variables of the accident. But in a crash test, we know most of the facts, and we can control many of the variables, so we are able to draw a more informed conclusion and make comparisions. In the past, before crash test results were made public, we had to rely on the cars passing government standards and we also would make conclusions based on photos and hearsay. It was relatively unscientific but it was all we had so we had no choice. But today when we have access through the net to so much good, independent scientific information, I think it is better to adopt a newer, more logical, experienced, and educated way of thinking. Quote:
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As I said above, I have found the same good/bad quality, the same problems in both countries from the exact same brand and model. Quote:
What argument should I make? That crumple zones are not meant to crumple? If the same car collides with a GV (I assume you mean Grand Vitara), there will be no difference. The crumple zones on both cars will do what they were meant to do. If you can show beyond reasonable doubt that the Indian Honda City crumples significantly differently from its Euro version, then you may have a case. Otherwise your case does not hold water. Quote:
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I do not understand what your 60k km vs. new car example has to do with Euro vs. Jap chassis torsional rigidity. Again please provide some proper scientific data or white paper report or expert witness testimony. Quote:
Please be more clear. I do not understand what you are saying when you ask the question about manufacturer data. I also do not understand what you are saying about "provide sufficient data themselves." Quote:
Take a look at this: HowStuffWorks "Scientific Method Steps" It appears you want to skip the middle steps of the scientific method and jump from your feelings and observations to stating your theories and then insisting your theories are valid without presenting clear, logical evidence. Just because other members are making the same mistake does not mean you should do the same nor does it make the allegations against Indian cars any more or less valid. | ||||||||
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22nd June 2009, 11:20 | #49 | |
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Indica Vista has not even appeared for crashtest at EuroNCAP. With modifications Tata is aiming for three stars ( read this in autocar india ). But as no scientific data is available for Vista, can we say that Ritz, SX4, Swift and A-star is safer than Vista ? A-star has 3 star rating, above Accent, Aveo, Lancer, so can we now say that A-star is safer than all the three midsizers ? But then what about standards ? In case of Accent, Aveo and Lancer, they all had 2 airbags, and in case of A-star, it had two airbags, so definitely its safer, right ? Now, as we have started comparing the car with i20 and jazz, they were tested with more than two aribags, so how can this be a levelling field ? If we access chassis strength, there is no way to conclude about this. And a few rattles in Swift does not make it unsafe. Skoda Laura is also 4 star rated as is Swift, so I think we can say that A-star is just slightly more unsafe than Swift and Laura. And Swift and Laura are equally safe, right ? Because we have scientific data available. Even mighty Q7 scored 4 stars, so does this mean Swift is as safe as Q7. My point is clear: If we are not having levelled ground specially when airbags are playing an important role, we cannot conclude that A-star is unsafe. And if we are so concerned about the quality of the forum, then I think we must first of all find out a way for determining the quality of chassis. About manufacturer giving details, I mean to say why manufacturers dont give out chassis details and its tolerance limits. | |
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22nd June 2009, 11:38 | #50 |
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| Whether it is safe or not A* strated selling like a hot cake at least in Kerala. When I was there in April I could hardly see any but this time the story is different in a month and half I could see a lot more A*s on the road. I could clearly say that it outsells I10 at least in noth Kerala(It doesnt mean that it is better than I10) may be the /Km done the trick for Maruti. Even in Bangalore it is slowly picking up these days. |
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22nd June 2009, 15:48 | #51 | |
BHPian | + 1. I also have begun to see more A Stars these days in Blore but Ritz even more than A star. Quote:
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6th July 2009, 14:47 | #52 | ||||||||
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I do not understand what you mean about chassis strength access and conclusions. Please explain. Quote:
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6th July 2009, 23:24 | #53 |
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| 1) Any modern car with airbags will be safer than the one without it. In EuroNCAP, they dont register the stiffness or energy absorbing capacity of the entire structure. They give maximum stress on the what forces are directed on to dummy. So here IMHO, airbags do make a difference. 2) So can we conclude that Swift and Laura structure are equally safe if we are to go by rating. You may respond that my points 1 and 2 are contradictory, but indeed they are not. What I am trying to prove is that airbags make a difference in rating and these rating are not the one very strictly applicable for cars that are sold in India. 3) Have a look at the images I have posted above. The i10's A-pillar shows deformation, where as it must not show any deformation. A-star's A-pillar is not showing any deformity, so I think we cannot conclude that A-star is unsafe or less safer than i10 and the likes. |
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7th August 2009, 09:19 | #54 | |||
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I disagree if you are comparing two different cars, one with and one without an airbag. In this case, only a crash test will determine which one is safer. One should not assume that just because a car has an airbag it will automatically be safer. If that was the case, we would not need crash testing and Honda would not be recalling about half a million 2001-2003 model year cars due to faulty airbag inflators. Why do you need to know the energy aborbing capacity of the entire structure? These kinds of in-depth details are of no practical use to consumers. Quote:
And, in India, the Swift and some Laura trim levels are not available with a rear centre 3-point seatbelt and stability control. Airbags can make a significant positive difference if the structure is well designed. If the structure is badly designed or if the quality control is bad, the presence of airbags will not make a significant difference. So, how do we assess whether a car has a good structure and good airbags? We crash test it and see what injuries the dummies sustain. The more safety features the India and Euro-market cars share, the more applicable the ratings will be. If an India-market Laura has no side airbags, then the Euroncap side impact ratings do not apply completely but they do apply partially. If the same car has front airbags and 3-point seatbelts for the front passengers, the front impact ratings are completely applicable. Quote:
There is more than one way to reach a goal. No single way is right or wrong as long as the goal is reached. Similarly, it is not right or wrong for an A-pillar to show deformation as long as the occupants are protected. First, look at the injuries sustained. Second, look at deformation. If no injuries are present, few people care about the amount of or type of deformation. Also, you have not mentioned the differences in deformation going on inside the cabin regarding the dash, the pedals, firewall, floorboard, etc. All these types of deformation cannot be seen or measured simply by looking at the images you posted. And even if they are seen and measured, the ultimate question will always be: "What kind of injuries did the dummies sustain; and based on these injuries, is it wise to buy this car or not; and am I getting the same active and passive safety features on the India-market version vs. the Euro-market vs. the USA-market?" | |||
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11th July 2010, 11:15 | #55 |
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| Never knew this thread existed! Looking at the following data it seems that A Star offers better chest protection for driver and front passenger than i10. Upper body protection is critical. A Star The passenger compartment remained stable in the frontal impact. Structures in the dashboard presented a risk of injury to the knees and femurs of both the driver and passenger. Dummy readings indicated marginal protection of the driver's lower legs. i10 The passenger compartment remained stable in the impact. Protection of the driver's chest was rated as weak owing to the extent to which it was compressed during the test. Structures in the dashboard presented a risk of injury to the knees and femurs of the front seat passengers. |
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11th July 2010, 11:40 | #56 |
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| Before I start let me tell you my comments is based on the NCAP ratings and not head on collisions with other vehicles because we dont have any data regarding the later. Many argue that A-star should not be compared to other cars because it is cheap hatch. See there is a reason why countries with safety regulations or safety rating agencies/programs like NCAP do not have different standards for different segments. This is because a car needs to be safe no matter how big small it is. The manufacturer has to do everything from their side to make cars safe. And a person with 4lakhs has as much right to live as one with 8lakhs. Now let me for a moment accept your argument. Then tell me why is punto, jazz, i20 as much safe as q5, c/3/a4 , e/5/a6 etc?? |
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