[Santoshbhat]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

I may get thrown out of the forum for admitting this, but I am so bad about regular pressure checks that I often only realize that air is needed because the steering is feeling stiff. By this time, the lack of pressure is visually obvious! By the time that happens, not only is the steering affected, but the tire walls are being stressed in a way that can affect the safety and life of the tire.

How can I be so stupid when I know all this?

Answers, on a postcard... ... ...

I am quite the opposite in this respect actually. I have my own tyre guage and check the tyre pressures regularly. Every time before I set out on a long journey I check the tire pressure the previous night, so that I know whether I need to get the tires inflated before leaving the city. Same routine before starting the return journey. I also keep different pressures for different road and load conditions.

Not just pressures, it is a good idea to check the condition of tyres every now and then. Cuts and bulges on tyres are very dangerous. ABS, ESP, Airbags etc.... may or may not come to our rescue if tyres burst at high speed, but we surely don't want to test these features do we?

[Thad E Ginathom]

I used to do all those things, a full oil/fluids/pressures checkover before undertaking any long journey.

Now all my journeys are short, and that it why I don't think of it. Thank you for helping me locate my mental fault. Now I have to fix it

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by powertrain

I say this again - A "comfortable compromise" is what I'm looking for. And I'm just not comfortable knowing that I don't have ABS in my car, especially when I know what kind of id**s that rule the road.

I don't know about others, but I never had the above expectation,my friend. All I'm asking is - "Should safety be optional?" - Be it a 1L Nano or a 10Cr. Benz.

Once you master the art of pump-braking to the degree that it becomes the only way you brake (much to the chagrin of other occupants in your vehicle), and provided you are driving the Gurkha within it's designed speed limits, the lack of ABS will not really be a huge concern. Also, the stock brakes are pretty adequate for the job. At least, that's the case with the older generation one.
On the other hand, the Force One is a vehicle where ABS is absolutely a must.

I do agree, that manufacturers should focus more on various safety aspects, though not just limited to ABS.

[powertrain]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Once you master the art of pump-braking to the degree that it becomes the only way you brake

The way I understand it,- pump braking will help you in "Anticipated Braking" scenario, not in "Emergency Braking" scenario,like for eg- when a kid darts across the road & we have to do avoidance braking. And this can happen even at 60-70 kph.

Please correct if I'm mistaken.

I hope we're not going .

Regards,
Varun

[roy_libran]

I guess we are indeed going off-topic. Still, the way it has happened with me over the years:

Yes, in the beginning, you will only pump-brake consciously when your mind is at ease. Over a period of time, your brain trains itself, to respond to the first hint of wheel lock-up and automatically you start pump-braking. This happens even in emergency situations, but then the degrees of emergency can vary, and maybe I have been lucky. Touch wood.
This is similar to another brain training I have tried over the years. It is to try and keep the steering dead straight while braking hard, even in an emergency, if I am going at any decent speed. That way, I have the best braking efficiency while retaining the ability to make minor adjustments and avoid collisions. Of course, I have learnt this the hard way myself.
One key thing I have against ABS in an off-road going vehicle, is the electronics part of it. The electronics to detect the wheel lock-up is going to be susceptible to the dust, mud and water that it will regularly come in contact with, during off-roading, thereby either wrecking it, or making it's behavior unpredictable.

[anachronix]

I will give you a calculation that we use in our presentation on road safety!

Assume, you are travelling at 50KMH. Calculate the distance you are travelling in a second.

50000 Metres per hour
50000/60 Metres per minute
50000/(60*60) Metres per minute = 13.8 Metres/Second

In case of emergency braking every metre or every inch counts. How long do you think it would take you to pump the brake. Lets assume its 1 second, you have covered 13.8 Metres already in that 1 second when you are doing just 50KM/H. And 13.8 Metres is a lot of distance to travel in case, an emergency stop is required!

In case of an emergency, you just go hard on the brakes. Be it ABS or Non-ABS enabled car. In an ABS enabled car you have the luxury of steering away from danger, while you may or may not have steer depending on the road surface, the condition of your tire and lot of other things in a Non-ABS car. But there is enough friction produced between the tires & road surface in case of a Non-ABS car to aid enough braking force to stop the car in time.

...and I havent even talked about the time to react which is again a few seconds

This video shows the slightest difference between 2 cars doing 60 vs 60 KM/H. See how much difference, a 5KMH extra speed could make and also the impact difference with increased stopping distance of the faster car. The pumping action would have only increased the stopping distance with a mighty impact!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjvVbXDy20w

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Once you master the art of pump-braking ...

...I do agree, that manufacturers should focus more on various safety aspects, though not just limited to ABS.

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by anachronix

In case of emergency braking every metre or every inch counts. How long do you think it would take you to pump the brake. Lets assume its 1 second, you have covered 13.8 Metres already in that 1 second when you are doing just 50KM/H. And 13.8 Metres is a lot of distance to travel in case, an emergency stop is required!

The pumping action would have only increased the stopping distance with a mighty impact!

Thanks. I knew the retorts would line up here, since the last few posts moved from the Gurkha thread to the dedicated ABS thread.
My comments were all respective to whether ABS is appropriate in a Gurkha and whether one can live without it on that vehicle.
My points of contention, vis-a-vis a hardcore off-roader, which is not a spirited highway performer, were:
1. The chances of screwing up ABS electronics in slush, water etc are very high.
2. The fact that ABS plays wicked tricks when crossing deep slush.
3. The fact that Gurkha is best driven up to 100 kmph, and in a staid manner. So, if the driver is careful, in most situations ABS may not be absolutely necessary.

ABS is desirable in most vehicles, but not on a hard-core off-roader, due to the reasons above. Also, I do not contest the figures you have published here, and indeed fully agree with them. But, there are compromises that you need to make, in return for certain other abilities.
I hope I made my position clear on this matter.

[hrman]

On a flight from Kochi, I had a very interesting chat with my co-passenger ,a gentleman who works for Bosch and is the R&D head for their ABS testing division.
1. It seems Bajaj had tied up with Bosch to provide ABS in bikes. Potential order was for 2 lakh bikes . But later restricted to 10000 bikes over 200 CC only. Although the cost is not too high, ABS was given second preference over margin to the manufacturer.

2. Bosch is lobbying to make ABS mandatory on cars manufactured in India. However, car manufacturers and the government are not too supportive, so its more like a lone battle being fought by them.

3. Bosch sends out a team of investigators, who arrive at a scene of a car accident and gather critical data for the cause of the accident. This provides vital information to their R&D process and is being used to make their case even stronger for enhanced passenger safety and stricter norms.

4. As already mentioned on this thread, ABS cannot be retro-fitted to a car. It needs to be included in the manufacturing process itself.

5. Cost of ABS for a car to the manufacturer is in the region of Rs.6000/- per car. Thats right . Rs.6000/- only. I wonder why are manufacturers not including this in all variants across models.

When we pay so much for a car, why don't manufacturers provide some basic proven safety features for the buyer? Sigh..

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by hrman

5. Cost of ABS for a car to the manufacturer is in the region of Rs.6000/- per car. Thats right . Rs.6000/- only. I wonder why are manufacturers not including this in all variants across models.

When we pay so much for a car, why don't manufacturers provide some basic proven safety features for the buyer? Sigh..

This was the case in Europe and (more so) America for decades. Manufacturers like Saab and Citroen who engineered to amazing levels were seen as odd - fuel tanks between the rear suspension arms well away from harm's way, collapsing steering columns with safe-design steering wheels with the rack at the rear of the engine bay (preventing the column punching you through the chest in an impact), good driver ergonomics, predictable handling in all situations, fail-safe and superb brakes and so on.

Yet today if a car isn't bedecked with a plethora of airbags, anti-lock brakes, ESP and the rest, people view it as some form of death-trap. It has gone from one extreme to the other in Europe and America. In the end it is the quality of the driver which makes a car truly safe or not.

Someone once suggested attaching a spike to the steering wheel, to sit three inches from the driver's chest, would produce a very safely-driven car. It is true to say that many drivers reduce their safety margins once anti-lock brakes and airbgs are fitted.

Primary safety (ability to avoid an accident) seems to have taken second place to the secondary type (how safe once you're in an accident) in recent years. No accident is safe, no matter ohw 'crashable' your steed.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Spot on. I have even seen ABS advertised as allowing faster driving, which is criminal irresponsibility.

I believe that these safety devices should be remembered in the showroom and forgotten (except the safety belt of course!) when driving.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by hrman

... ABS was given second preference over margin to the manufacturer. ... However, car manufacturers and the government are not too supportive, so its more like a lone battle being fought by them.

... Cost of ABS for a car to the manufacturer is in the region of Rs.6000/- per car. Thats right . Rs.6000/- only. I wonder why are manufacturers not including this ...

It is very nice but simplistic to say "6K" is a negligible cost. That "6K" ultimately adds 24K at least to the price of the car (it is actually subjected to opportunistic pricing - "Premium"!!! And then there is the Excise component). That 24K is enough for the average buyer to look askance - safety or no safety. If the buyers don't insist - no matter what the cost - what interest does the manufacturer have in increasing the price and reducing chances of a sale?

Or are you expecting something to be given for free in the name of safety? Do we have a driving instruction system in place to teach safe driving? The way most people drive would be unsafe *even if* ABS were to be present. ABS helps accident avoidance, not prevention. What do you do when the other guy knows only how to 'point' a car, not how to 'drive' a car? That goes for 99% of drivers, and the same %age of accidents. Many 'educated' drivers in India drive vehicles with ABS *faster* - with the firm belief that ABS will get them out of a sticky situation!!!

And the Govt. has far more serious things to do (which in most cases don't get done anyhow ) than bothering about whether ABS should be provided or not. Normally everyone expects the Govt. to be correcting something the general population is apathetic and passive about in the first place!

We can sing praises about a Saab, a BMW or a Daimler - try passing the driving test in those countries! The test is the same whether the person has only studied till middle school or is a PhD. In India, one can get a driving license even if one hasn't *ever* driven a vehicle. In those countries, the driving instructor endorses the driver's skill, as it is in his interest to do the right thing. If an accident is attributed to an act of omission on his part, he will be ruined commercially. In India, the endorsement comes from a corrupt official who himself knows nothing about decent driving, and who is never questioned for any wrongdoing - of any kind!

[hrman]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

It is very nice but simplistic to say "6K" is a negligible cost. That "6K" ultimately adds 24K at least to the price of the car (it is actually subjected to opportunistic pricing - "Premium"!!! And then there is the Excise component).

I have seen in India,especially on forums like TBHP, car manufacturers who provide safety features across variants are appreciated for their concern on human safety. And those who do not (or make the passenger pay more for a higher variant with ABS/Airbags) are generally ridiculed for compromising on safety or charging more for it.

Was'nt it a long time ago that seat belts were not mandatory on cars. Then after more manufacturers brought their cars to India, it slowly became a standard safety feature in all cars and all models.

Are you saying that there is not even a semblance of chance that ABS will become the norm in the future? I still think it can and will.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by hrman

... Are you saying that there is not even a semblance of chance that ABS will become the norm in the future? ...

I didn't talk of the future, did I?

Originally Posted by hrman

... I still think it can and will.

I agree, quite obviously that's what happened in the other countries. The key is the acceptance of 'price' of features by Indian consumers, that nothing comes for free in life. The 'norm' came in the other countries only after everyone understood that fundamental economic principle.

[FlatOut]

As mentioned above, the cost for manufacturers is negligible. But they would argue that so long as consumers buy the cheapest tyres possible and neglect to service their vehicles correctly, why should they bear any repsonsibility for consumer safety?

I would expect that the increase in revenue from after-market sales (of sensors, mainly) would match the extra cost of adding ABS to cars. Which would of course be added to the price of a new car. So why are manufacturers always so slow to adopt these changes?

Sadly in Europe - and what happens here will surely follow in your country - the (secondary) safety aspect of a motor car has become one of the most important sales features, so that there may be over 10 airbags ready to expolde inside your car in the case of an impact. If your crash is high speed and long-lasting, these airbag detonations may well impair the driver's ability to control the vehicle.



I think more

[hrman]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

I didn't talk of the future, did I?

I agree, quite obviously that's what happened in the other countries. The key is the acceptance of 'price' of features by Indian consumers, that nothing comes for free in life. The 'norm' came in the other countries only after everyone understood that fundamental economic principle.

I agree sir. I do see your point as well.
Another example I see is of reverse sensors coming factory fitted in sedans and being fit as an after market accessory. I for one have so much dependence on the Reverse sensor, that I feel handicapped to reverse park a car which does not have this accessory.