[Torquedo]

Originally Posted by Sn1p3r

Did you TD both the cars? I hope you have researched enough about both the cars on TBHP.

I recommend Cruze I do not recommend both your choices wait for the festive season post monsoon for the deals to be dished out the way Honda is slashing prices I am sure Civic too will become mouthwatering.

Sniper -

Thanks for the inputs.

I am not going the Honda way, Civic to me has no appeal, neither performance (Laura and Optra both have) nor financial (Optra).

As mentioned in my posts, Cruze with 4L extra for same kinda 'In Gear' performance is on the expensive side. I must admit that I considered the Cruze LT at one point.

The only reason why I was considering the Laura was the price that I was getting it. For 12.2 OTR, I think it is a steal.

[Sn1p3r]

^my BIL has Optra petrol and thus I recommend the Cruze over it. By Civic I meant all car companies will sweeten the deal further in a couple of months time.

Optra is an aging car. It has seen its prime and I have driven it and do not like the dynamics. Cruze appears to be better and has taut chassis. To each his own, I likes Cruze interiors better than Optra and thus my personal suggestion. There is a difference in price and I am sure there is merit to components and maybe additional deprecation on engine and equipment at the plant. Warp effect is only delicious for the driver the co-passengers are generally feeling sick.

Cruze and Optra both have options for aftermarket ECU and the dead meat Cruze can be a enjoyable ride in b2b traffic.

Laura is totally another story. I haven't got your priorities right, thus I want you to TD the car really well before you plonk the dough.

[TRANSAM]

Torq, With skoda celebrating their 10 years in India and the large amount of criticism on their A$$ front, im quite certain they will get/getting their act together and with their growing numbers here in India. In fact, i made a recent visit to the Autobahn showroom here in Mumbai with a friend who had similar concern as yours and was apprehensive in booking a skoda car, we were mighty impressed with the customer service attentiveness even with several prospective buyers in the showroom, my friend did not take too long to book his fabia.
my take - Optra -dated and on its way out (but some extra cash in the bank)
Laura TSI- your going with your heart and 160bhp of sheer power and tank like build.

Happy Motoring...

[fuel_addict]

Originally Posted by TRANSAM

In fact, i made a recent visit to the Autobahn showroom here in Mumbai with a friend who had similar concern as yours and was apprehensive in booking a skoda car, we were mighty impressed with the customer service attentiveness even with several prospective buyers in the showroom, my friend did not take too long to book his fabia.

Aren't we talking about after sales service here? Most showroom sales guys would put up a friendly attitude to attract customers. I wouldn't read too much into that.

On the brighter side, Autobahn maybe one of the better Skoda dealers here based on reviews I have heard recently.

[TRANSAM]

Originally Posted by fuel_addict

Aren't we talking about after sales service here? Most showroom sales guys would put up a friendly attitude to attract customers. I wouldn't read too much into that.

On the brighter side, Autobahn maybe one of the better Skoda dealers here based on reviews I have heard recently.

yes we are mate, but the front end has also seemingly improved, hence im certain they have managed to spruce up their A$$ as well. Its the overall car buying experience also that makes a difference, earlier these guys were quite in-different when the new laura had been launched and i hope that skoda has seamlessly improved on all fronts of customer services and after sales service..

[Torquedo]

Originally Posted by Sn1p3r

Laura is totally another story. I haven't got your priorities right, thus I want you to TD the car really well before you plonk the dough.

Performance is the priority and getting it at the right price.

I have extensively test driven the Optra and Laura.

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by Torquedo

Anshuman -

Thanks for the inputs.

Basically before I get down to the Cruze part, I would be thankful if you may have an insight on these couple of questions that I have:

1) A$$ - Which is better Chevy or Skoda?

Laura will be more expensive to maintain, TSi's resale value is also not as good as TDi. Magnum also does not enjoy good resale value.

2) Maintenance Cost: Would Chevy be cheaper to maintain in comparo with Skoda? Skoda claims a 15K service interval.

Not sure about this, look up the ownership threads for this.

Now the Cruze part:

I have TD the Optra close to 8 times and the Cruze 3 times, here are my findings:

1) Optra has more space - Actually the per say "SPACE" part is not that important to me, but somehow the Cruze felt claustrophobic at the back.
The Optra had a better driving position as well.

Yes Optra has more space but Cruze is leagues ahead in handling and dynamics. With the adjustable steering(Tilt and Telescopic) and height adjustable seat, finding good driving position is very easy in Cruze. Every time i drove the Cruze, i liked the driving position.

2) Cruze is indeed a Diesel rocket but below the 1800 RPM mark it is dead meat, once beyond that mark, it pulls like a freight train, there is no stopping this BULL. The Turbo lag is much more prominent in the Cruze.

The Optra on the other hand, beyond it's turbo has that "WARP" like feeling which was missing on the Cruze.

Both cars have equally bad Turbo lag but the effect feels amplified in Cruze due to taller gearing(which obviously has it's own advantages). The surge at 2000rpm is just a feeling. Magnum's engine does not have the super top end and revv happy nature of the Cruze(surprising since they share the same engine in different states of tune.)

Another aspect where Cruze has Magnum licked is the high speed composure.(Optra after all is a decade old Daewoo Lacetti)

If you intend to drive the car a lot on open roads, you will be blown over by Cruze's tall gearing.

3) Pricing part - for just 13 Nm of excess torque spending close to 4L extra (you do get the Airbags and ABS) did not much sense to me, the BHP is higher as well but what matters to me is the IN GEAR acceleration not the TOP END speed.

At times Max torque does not matter as much as the range over which it is spread. Cruze comes with VGT which helps the torque stay in top end, where the torque dips in Magnum.(Read the relationship between BHP and Torque).

Furthermore, I forgot to mention the new Jetta in my last post. The new Jetta is coming soon, expect killer pricing for base version. If you can wait this might be the right car for you.

For Driveability nothing beats Laura MT 110hp TDi(flat torque curve from 1500rpm and matching ratios) and current Jetta(it may be available for good discounts since new one is coming soon.) Yes, this means stretching the budget for you but the Laura TDI's resale value makes it more sensible buy compared to the TSi.

[Santoshbhat]

Originally Posted by brraj

@Santoshbhat - Good to know that you are from bangalore, Why dont you join bangy drives to know for yourself. Yes, you can get 12kmpl only if you are light footed. More over petrol prices rocketing to 100rs/lt in future is a reality. Again i stress if you have the dough go ahead with laura its one hell of a car.</br></br> More over petrol prices rocketing to 100rs/lt in future is a reality. Again i stress if you have the dough go ahead with laura its one hell of a car compared to magnum.

Thanks, would love to join the bangy drives. The TSI is really not for the light footed. . There is a plethora of cars in our country for those looking for FE. I just meant that the Laura TSI is capable of delivering decent FE whilst delivering terrific power at the same time.

rising petrol prices! God save us petrolheads!

[khoj]

Originally Posted by .anshuman

If want a cheaper car with space and running running costs as priority get the Magnum. Under the skin it is a dated car now, it's the same Rebadged Korean Daewoo car which competed with Octavia a decade back. Now even with a minor front job and rebadging as Magnum, it really cannot hide it's age undder the skin. Good part is- it's spacious, Rides really well and come with the proven Diesel engine(sourced from Detroit Diesel).

If Handling, Fun to Drive factor and overall driver involvement is what you seek, get the Laura TSi. TSi has diesel like 250nm torque available all across the powerband. It might feel expensive compared to Magnum but it is not really positioned in the same segment.

Why don't you look at the Cruze LT? It's more Modern, has better dynamics and has more power than the Magnum.

Anshuman I can agree only with the opening sentence of your post above, in that Optra is a correctly priced vehicle (cheap in other words) that offers optimum space and running costs.

Optra has nothing to do with the Cielo except for the fact that GM was a technology provider and had shares in Daewoo. GM bought into more of Daewoo's assets when the latter folded up. The Optra is more or less based on a Holden model out of Australia. I cannot not recall the exact model name at the moment but yes Holden too is a GM owned company.

Optra is spacious because it has a wheelbase of 2600 mm compared to the 2520mm of the Cielo. It handles as well or if I dare say so better than the Laura due to its very stiff chasis and the all wheel independent suspension compared to the wallowy ride of the Cielo which had twisted cross beam+coil springs at the rear and McPherson struts up front. The Cielo had a 1.5L Daewoo manufactured, GMDAT redesigned block derived from an old GM engine and the Optra benefits from the DD engine that Holden favoured (Holden being the Subaru of Australia). A completely different beast all together the initial Optras suffered as the 1.6L petrol engines were GMDAT units similar to the 1.5L used in the Ceilo and were woefully inadequate for the bigger and heavier chassis and body of the Optra. The 1.8s (with very classy Bluish- Grey interiors on the LT versions) never took off as the market dynamics in late 90s were very different and we lost many good cars ( viz Opel Astra, Ford Mondeo) to the 'kuch nahi deti' mentality.

The diesel Magnum is a hoot to drive and right up there in handling etc as the Cedia that I currently drive. Further from my 5+ years as a GM car owner I can state with confidence that GM service is better than most, with hardly any sob stories and easily accessible and well stocked service centers.

BTW the Magnum diesel handles way better than the Cruze and offers a far more comfortable ride both in the front and the rear in real world scenario. Disclaimer : The statement immediately above does not apply to boy racers who are only looking to be the first to brake at the next stop light.

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by khoj

Anshuman I can agree only with the opening sentence of your post above, in that Optra is a correctly priced vehicle (cheap in other words) that offers optimum space and running costs.

Optra has nothing to do with the Cielo except for the fact that GM was a technology provider and had shares in Daewoo. GM bought into more of Daewoo's assets when the latter folded up.

The Optra is more or less based on a Holden model out of Australia.

I cannot not recall the exact model name at the moment but yes Holden too is a GM owned company.

I never said Optra has anything in common with Cielo, except they are both Daewoo cars. Optra = Daewoo Lacetti : Daewoo Lacetti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Infact Cruze is also now sold as Lacetti in korea but it was designed by Chevrolet US.

Magnum is also called-

• Buick Excelle HRV
• Chevrolet Lacetti
• Chevrolet Optra5
• Daewoo Lacetti
• Holden Viva
• Suzuki Reno
  
  Sedan:
• Buick Excelle
• Chevrolet Lacetti
• Chevrolet Optra
• Daewoo Nubira
• Holden Viva
• Suzuki Forenza
  
  Wagon:
• Buick Excelle
• Chevrolet Lacetti
• Chevrolet Optra
• Chevrolet Optra XL
• Chevrolet Nubira
• Daewoo Nubira
• Holden Viva
• Suzuki Forenza

The point is it was designed by Daewoo and originally started life as a Daewoo. Just like by rebadging the Forester as Chevy they could not hide the Subaru DNA, similarly by selling it as a Chevy they cannot hide the Daewoo DNA.

A quote from Wikipedia:

In 2002, The Lacetti is manufactured in India and sold as the Optra and the hatchback version is sold as the Chevrolet Optra SRV (formerly known/sold as Chevrolet SRV), which they plan to get out with a 2L diesel engine in the near future.
The Optra is sold with two engine options, 1.6 L and 1.8 L. In the first option it is available in three trim levels, the Elite, the Elite LS, and LT Royale. In the second engine option it is available in two levels, the LT and the LT AT, the latter coming with automatic transmission.
In 2007 GM India came out with a diesel engined Optra called the Optra Magnum. The Magnum had a different nose, and interiors as compared to the petrol version. Subsequently the petrol version got the new nose treatment(like that of the Optra SRV but with a slightly different front grill) and tail lights, and are sold as Optra Magnum petrol/diesel.

If you say Optra is an enthusiastic handler, pretty much every thing else on sale is a great handler too.

[keyur]

Originally Posted by bloodred

Hi. Laura is a heart over head decision (I chose this and got myself a TSI in June), while Optra is a head over heart decision!

This depends on how your heart beats! My heart and head, both pointed to the Optra!

Originally Posted by NoRules

More than 6 months, I did not come across ONE, even ONE Optra in the seconds market that was post 2008. Yes there are cars listed on several web sites, dealers and classifieds but they all are 2007 or prior models. The asking price for LS 2007 model with around 50k on Odo typically is around 5.5 lakhs to 6.00 lakhs and for LT model it is 5.75 to 6.75 lakhs.

I have now given up on going for a pre-owned car:

1. Because I cannot find any.
2. The no-resale-value-for-Optra is just that, a myth.

So, please go for Optra 2.0 Magnum TCDi

I will agree on this. My dad was looking at purchasing a new car, and I was seriously contemplating on giving (selling ) him my new Optra, and then purchasing a 3-4 year old Optra Magnum TCDi (so that I can expedite the shocks, disks and ECU remap mods - can't wait for 2 yrs on my new Optra).

But I can hardly find any Optra's in the market! This could be because of 2 reasons :

1. A person who purchases an Optra does not want to sell it because it's just too good an all rounder!

2. Once on the market, the car gets lapped up immediately - there are too many people who are waiting to pick up a used Optra Magnum.

Derive your conclusions from this!

Originally Posted by brraj

Magnum
- you can get 600kms/tank even if you are doing 150+.
- Parts are cheaper compared to TSI.

I agree on this. I have been trying to hit top speeds consistently on my Opty, (see this : The Grey Torqedo - My Chevy Optra Magnum 2.0 TCDI).

In spite of driving like this I am getting a FE of around 12-14! I am more than happy with this!

I do Mumbai-Pune regularly. In my Swift Vxi petrol, I needed Rs.1500 worth of petrol to do the round-trip.
In my Optra, I do the same trip in around Rs.650 - at much higher speeds - in much lesser time!

Originally Posted by Torquedo

Performance is the priority and getting it at the right price.

I have extensively test driven the Optra and Laura.

Torq, I think that you are just fooling around with us (no offence meant ). You already know and have decided on the car - all your posts already point to the Optra!

Originally Posted by khoj

Anshuman I can agree only with the opening sentence of your post above, in that Optra is a correctly priced vehicle (cheap in other words) that offers optimum space and running costs.

Optra has nothing to do with the Cielo except for the fact that GM was a technology provider and had shares in Daewoo.

I think that Anshuman was talking about the Daewoo Lacetti here. But anyways, even if a car is old, but still can beat the hell out of the newer ones on most fronts, what's the fuss about?

Remember Hudson Hornet vs Lightning McQueen (Cars movie)!

[Torquedo]

Originally Posted by .anshuman

Laura will be more expensive to maintain, TSi's resale value is also not as good as TDi. Magnum also does not enjoy good resale value.



Not sure about this, look up the ownership threads for this.




Yes Optra has more space but Cruze is leagues ahead in handling and dynamics. With the adjustable steering(Tilt and Telescopic) and height adjustable seat, finding good driving position is very easy in Cruze. Every time i drove the Cruze, i liked the driving position.


Both cars have equally bad Turbo lag but the effect feels amplified in Cruze due to taller gearing(which obviously has it's own advantages). The surge at 2000rpm is just a feeling. Magnum's engine does not have the super top end and revv happy nature of the Cruze(surprising since they share the same engine in different states of tune.)

Another aspect where Cruze has Magnum licked is the high speed composure.(Optra after all is a decade old Daewoo Lacetti)

If you intend to drive the car a lot on open roads, you will be blown over by Cruze's tall gearing.



At times Max torque does not matter as much as the range over which it is spread. Cruze comes with VGT which helps the torque stay in top end, where the torque dips in Magnum.(Read the relationship between BHP and Torque).

Furthermore, I forgot to mention the new Jetta in my last post. The new Jetta is coming soon, expect killer pricing for base version. If you can wait this might be the right car for you.

For Driveability nothing beats Laura MT 110hp TDi(flat torque curve from 1500rpm and matching ratios) and current Jetta(it may be available for good discounts since new one is coming soon.) Yes, this means stretching the budget for you but the Laura TDI's resale value makes it more sensible buy compared to the TSi.

Thanks Anshuman -

My responses -

1) On the 3 TD's that I have had on the Cruze, not even once did I find the driving position to my liking.

2) Agreed on the Top End part and revv happy nature of the Cruze, but pardon me I beg to differ on the "feeling @ 2K RPM", performance and the feel is what we actually land up paying for.

AFAIK, the engines on the Cruze and Optra are different & it's not just the VGT that differentiates the two.

3) Agreed, that the top end torque tapers off quickly on the Optra, but then it is delivered early as well @ 2125, it kicks in the Cruze @ 2600.

As always thanks for the inputs on the Jetta but as I have stated on my posts, the only reason why I looked at the Laura was the pricing that it was being offered at.

The crux remains, I am looking for maximum fun for my bucks.

Another help Anshuman, if you have the link handy, can you please guide me to link that relates the BHP to Torque as mentioned in your post.

Thanks Mate.

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by Torquedo

The crux remains, I am looking for maximum fun for my bucks.

Why not the Linea T-Jet then?

Handling- Leagues ahead of Optra and Cruze.
Steering- Best this side of BMW X1.
Performance- Great.
Space- Tight but see if you can live with it.

Another help Anshuman, if you have the link handy, can you please guide me to link that relates the BHP to Torque as mentioned in your post.

This is an interesting discussion: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ue-vs-bhp.html

[Torquedo]

Torq, I think that you are just fooling around with us (no offence meant ). You already know and have decided on the car - all your posts already point to the Optra!

Ha ha, good one as I try and bring my day to a closure, on a serious note, I had given my piece of mind on the Optra on your ownership exp. Keyur

As I (you got the word right first, I'm envious ) have said the "WARP" feeling was missing both on the Cruze and Laura, the kind off sudden burst of thrust that you get in an Optra is not to be found anywhere, anywhere would include the current "TORQUE KING" the VENTO.

The torque delivery on the Laura was more linear than the Optra, this is something that I actually did not like, but yes I must admit the high speed composure on the Laura was leagues ahead and it felt.

[bloodred]

Originally Posted by keyur

This depends on how your heart beats! My heart and head, both pointed to the Optra!

Agreed Keyur! That's a personal choice.

The two cars are targetted to cater to very different user requirements in terms of safety features, build quality, FE, maintenance costs etc. There essentially can not be a comparison between the two and as a gentleman rightly pointed, he's tempted by the lucarative opportunity to buy a car in higher segment, but held back by concerns over maintenance costs, A $ $ etc.

Found FE of Laura TSI to be very good for what is delivers. Have taken a punt on A $ $, which may not be advisable for everyone. A head over heart decision in this segment might have been an Altis or even a Civic.

BTW had a petrol Optra as office car for few years. Always liked the terrific rear bench, especially on same day Pune - Mumbai - Pune trips, but not the driver's seat. Recently travelled in a colleagues petrol Optra which should be around 2-3 years old. Felt the interior fit and finish to be very different from Laura and older office Optra (but that again may be dependent on version etc.)

Cheers!