Team-BHP > What Car? > Sedans


Reply
  Search this Thread
1,056,370 views
Old 10th November 2014, 17:23   #931
D4D
BHPian
 
D4D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Garden City
Posts: 482
Thanked: 336 Times
Re: Need advice on 10-12 lakh sedan

  • This is surely a segment with fierce competition and all models are really good.
  • I think Skoda Rapid could fit your requirements.
  • Can you think about stretching and reaching for AT? That way you can avoid the driver and save in the long term.
  • Also consider the Honda City. Nope it's not the best handler around.
  • You can conveniently leave Hyundai Verna out. The facelifted one supposed to have a better suspension, but you're not willing to wait.
  • Try the Maruti Ciaz. It's a pretty good product.
  • Not a sedan, but consider the Renault Duster too.
  • In the pre-owned segment, a Chevy Cruze maybe worth it. People in this forum are crazy about it.
D4D is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 10th November 2014, 17:39   #932
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 35
Thanked: 47 Times
Re: Need advice on 10-12 lakh sedan

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaurabhSaran View Post
Why not Ciaz? Its a new product from MSIL, although the rear look we already have on road in the form of Honda City(4th Gen).
Hi Saurabhji
Thanks.
I trust Maruti to death. It doesn't promise you the sky, yet delivers what you expect. But as with many of us, we need that change.

I did go through TBHP Ciaz review (I've been shadowing TBHP for years now) & on reading that its not to an enthusiasts taste, got discouraged. Also, I find the 1.3 mjd underpowered. Ofcourse, this is a mindset & I've never driven a sedan with the 1.3. So its largely based on hearsay & superficial inference.

As mentioned, road travels have been increasing these days & often we find ourselves headed out on the highways. If Skoda had a reputation like MSIL or Honda, I'd have blindly purchased the Rapid. Though the heart still goes 'Czech Czech', the mind says 'hang on dude'.

I'd like to infer from the opinions of those who are or have been in similar situations, and their experiences with particular models. This would help me decide & keep realistic expectations.

But yeah, why not Ciaz.

Thanks again :-)
DessertOnWheels is offline  
Old 10th November 2014, 17:48   #933
BHPian
 
karts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Chennai
Posts: 105
Thanked: 84 Times
Re: Need advice on 10-12 lakh sedan

Quote:
Originally Posted by DessertOnWheels View Post
Thanks Ishlinea.


Verna looks cool (slightly overdone curves) & plush. But considering frequent highway drives, the inherent nature of the Verna has put me off. I drove one & came back unimpressed. The front & rear halves don't seem to have co-ordination, especially during braking. Otherwise, the ride quality is quite nice.


May I know which version of Verna did you test drive. While I was on the lookout for a sedan 4 months ago, I too did a test drive of 2013 Verna and was unimpressed with its handling, Later I took a test drive of 2014 Verna at a different dealership and the experience was totally different, and bought home a Verna, I have been using it for past 4 months and have clocked 6700 KMs on the ODO including couple of long distance trips of 1000 kms each. I can easily say, the 2014 Verna is lot improved in the handling & driving dynamics, (I had i20 earlier, so I could compare the difference in the handling) if not in the leagues of the Rapid/Vento/Punto, but definitely is at par with City. With the on-going discounts, good after sales service & a competent diesel engine, Verna is a VFM package. I bought the 1.6 CRDi SX for 10.60 Lakhs post discount in July '14. Let me know if you have any questions, will be happy to answer.
karts is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 10th November 2014, 18:45   #934
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 35
Thanked: 47 Times
Re: Need advice on 10-12 lakh sedan

Hi D4d

Quote:
Originally Posted by D4D View Post
  • This is surely a segment with fierce competition and all models are really good.
But as we see, some are better :-) I don't intend to sell the new car too soon. It should be around for 7 years atleast.
  • I think Skoda Rapid could fit your requirements.
Woah! That's one support. You are elligible for a dessert treat. But any specific points to emphasise on before signing on the cheque (2+2 warranty, Shield, road side etc. aside)
  • Can you think about stretching and reaching for AT? That way you can avoid the driver and save in the long term.
The driver is more to ferry the Mrs. to & from work & the family when I'm at work. Also, so that I can make & take calls with ease & work on the BB (Yes, I still use one & as you guessed it, I use things way beyond their usage. This applies to the car as well). Though I'm not ticking off DSG completely, deals are available on every variant (both VW & Skoda), except the DSG, thereby making the gap even wider. Did I mention I'm tight fisted too?


  • Also consider the Honda City. Nope it's not the best handler around.
I'm awaiting user experiences similar to mine on the latest City. There were two City in the office. One of them (version 3) couldn't take highway travel too well & was exchanged for a Yeti. I hope the version 4 has upgrades on handling.
  • You can conveniently leave Hyundai Verna out. The facelifted one supposed to have a better suspension, but you're not willing to wait.
I find the Verna an underdog, but I've got to be fair to myself. So yes, Verna would in all probability not end up in my parking slot.
  • Try the Maruti Ciaz. It's a pretty good product.
Yes, Ciaz shall be considered.
  • Not a sedan, but consider the Renault Duster too.
I'm not sure if a Duster falls in my budget. I know its a competent machine, good handler & eats up bad roads for dessert. I'm not Sedan centric but there aren't too many good options in mini SUVs to compare with.
  • In the pre-owned segment, a Chevy Cruze maybe worth it. People in this forum are crazy about it.
The Cruze is a stunner & the most masculine set of wheels in that range. How about maintenance costs on GM cars? Especially on used Cruzes? I checked several portals & saw that most Cruzes on the block have run around 40K. I wonder if the problems arise at that point?
For a good while a D4D too was in mind. But she's too big for the City.

Thanks for your inputs :-)


Mod Note : Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another on the SAME THREAD!
To know how to multi-quote, click here.
We advise you to read the Forum Rules before proceeding any further.

Last edited by noopster : 10th November 2014 at 19:39. Reason: Please do not post back-to-back, use "multi-quote" option
DessertOnWheels is offline  
Old 10th November 2014, 20:14   #935
Senior - BHPian
 
VW2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: electricity
Posts: 2,914
Thanked: 4,431 Times
Re: Need advice on 10-12 lakh sedan

Get an used MK V Jetta. You can find one that is minimally used for around 8-10L and they are usually maintenance free. These cars have good mechanical reliability and you may have to set aside around 2-3L of maintenance cost for the next 3 years and you may never use those 2-3L in most instance.

I am talking about the manual shift cars that run forever and have like 8 air bags, esp etc.

I will go this route simply because these cars are going for so low now that they are highly under valued.
VW2010 is offline  
Old 10th November 2014, 20:44   #936
D4D
BHPian
 
D4D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Garden City
Posts: 482
Thanked: 336 Times
Re: Need advice on 10-12 lakh sedan

Quote:
Originally Posted by DessertOnWheels View Post
But as we see, some are better :-) I don't intend to sell the new car too soon. It should be around for 7 years atleast.
The Japanese cars are the best in this case.

Quote:
Woah! That's one support. You are elligible for a dessert treat. But any specific points to emphasise on before signing on the cheque (2+2 warranty, Shield, road side etc. aside)
Get max additional warranty. Any pray that nothing fails. Don't worry, it's the AT versions in which parts have been failing. I should think MT cars must be reliable, but not Japanese reliable.

Quote:
I'm awaiting user experiences similar to mine on the latest City. There were two City in the office. One of them (version 3) couldn't take highway travel too well & was exchanged for a Yeti. I hope the version 4 has upgrades on handling.
Type 3 city had very soft suspensions. But Type 4 has improved considerably. There's still some bounciness though. Take a long test drive.

Quote:
Yes, Ciaz shall be considered.
If your choice gets too difficult, stick to the Ciaz. It's a Maruti and easy to maintain and run. And fairly well equipped. (Unlike other Marutis)
Quote:
The Cruze is a stunner & the most masculine set of wheels in that range. How about maintenance costs on GM cars? Especially on used Cruzes? I checked several portals & saw that most Cruzes on the block have run around 40K. I wonder if the problems arise at that point?
Don't worry much. Save a little for maintenance. If you buy a well maintained car, nothing to worry. The owners on the forum will swear by it's reliability.

Also, in the pre-owned segment, look for a used Elantra. (2nd gen)

Last edited by D4D : 10th November 2014 at 20:46.
D4D is offline  
Old 10th November 2014, 21:28   #937
BHPian
 
drsingh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ludhiana
Posts: 780
Thanked: 716 Times

Quote:
Originally Posted by DessertOnWheels View Post
Hello fellow motorists
My first post on TBHP begins with a request for advice. Not sure if its the right way to begin here, but the enlightened are requested to contribute.

Can the experts & the experienced suggest if the Rapid (Elegance) would prove itself worthy of my requirements?

- Which other option/s should be thought of?
- Kindly do highlight the merits of these options.
- Will the service costs commensurate the distances to be covered?
- Should I consider a used car? (family says 'no' though)
- Other key points to be kept in mind.

Your collective wisdom should make my decision taking easy & quick.

Please do contribute.

Thanks.
I'm not an expert on sedans but I was in a similar situation to yours and ended up getting a used linea.

There's not much competition for the comfort, ride , engine of the rapid in that segment but the linea cuts it close.

I wouldn't recommend a skoda to my friends after the issues that have surfaced on the forum. But it does make a case for itself with attractive finance/4 year warranty/ refinement.

For a no nonsense efficient commuter , low on maintenance, nothing beats the Toyota Etios.

Id look at a used corolla petrol/diesel if I was being chauffeured around everyday.
drsingh is offline  
Old 10th November 2014, 22:56   #938
Senior - BHPian
 
IshaanIan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hyd
Posts: 3,660
Thanked: 7,477 Times
Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by DessertOnWheels View Post
Hello fellow motorists
My first post on TBHP begins with a request for advice. Not sure if its the right way to begin here, but the enlightened are requested to contribute.

Can the experts & the experienced suggest if the Rapid (Elegance) would prove itself worthy of my requirements?

- Which other option/s should be thought of?
- Kindly do highlight the merits of these options.
- Will the service costs commensurate the distances to be covered?
- Should I consider a used car? (family says 'no' though)
- Other key points to be kept in mind.

Your collective wisdom should make my decision taking easy & quick.

Please do contribute.

Thanks.
Rapid is a nice car, but "4 adults + 1 kid and another on the way"? you might want to consider something bigger like a used Fluence or an Innova depending on how much you value sedan-like dynamic prowess.
IshaanIan is online now  
Old 11th November 2014, 16:35   #939
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 35
Thanked: 47 Times
Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Rapid is a nice car, but "4 adults + 1 kid and another on the way"? you might want to consider something bigger like a used Fluence or an Innova depending on how much you value sedan-like dynamic prowess.
Hi Ishanji
Ha ha. Well, as mentioned, not all of us shall be traveling all the time. Atleast 70k km on the Alto was done solo. The new car may have one or max two more passengers during weekdays.

Innova is unbeatable, a must have if I have a multiple car stable. Its one car that heart & head agree too. But she's not a city slicker. Moreover, budget won't permit. Probably must think of a used Innova. We have one (from the used market) at our Delhi office , with near 200k on the ODO. Not a squeak from her. But Delhi is big car friendly too. Honestly, it certainly is at the bottom end of my choices. But then my choices are too few.

Used Fluence (Diesel) is as rarity. The ones there are have 50k+ kms on the odo. Not sure if its a wise choice.

Thanks again :-)
DessertOnWheels is offline  
Old 13th November 2014, 18:22   #940
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 670
Thanked: 143 Times
Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Exactly this is the same thing that is going around now for me. A sedan within 10 lakhs!!!!

Disclaimer- This may be a long thread, but certainly hope that it may be informative. Also no offense meant to any cars owner who own any of the below mentioned cars which I may have not liked and criticized. It is my personal opinion only and I am no Automobile expert. Amends are welcome.

Current status - My Manza QJD is doing its duty perfectly fine. We require one more sedan, exactly in the same C1 segment.

The choices that we evaluated are as follows:

Honda Amaze diesel - Honda could have just kept quiet instead of having designed such a car. My great brand image towards Honda is completely shattered. I had a look at the car yesterday completely. I was really disappointed. Before reaching the showroom, i had an understanding that only interiors are bad in Amaze, rest is fine, but the same completely changed after seeing the car.

TD of Amaze diesel- The engine was responsive, no turbo lag, very good torque, pulls easily at lower speeds in 2nd/3rd gear.
But the sound of the engine is very annoying and seriously pathetic. The sound intrudes into the cabin violently. This is a very big letdown. Plus there is a bit of humming sound at higher gears at lower rpm, which is really very annoying at least to me and this is one of the major reason why I sold my i10 too.

Also the rear seat comfort was not great and my family members said 'we cannot travel for long distance in this car'. May be they are over expecting after having traveled in Manza for close to 30K kms. So Amaze dropped out of the list.

Tata Zest- We did not evaluate the Zest, as we are already having a Tata car and do not want one more trouble

Hyundai Xcent – Seriously didn’t like the design of the car. Also 1.1L was something puny to me. Sometimes I feel 1.3 MJD itself less powerful for my choice, so the lackluster 1.1 was not even taken for evaluation.
Plus I am very pessimistic about the maintenance cost of Hyundai, as I had already an i10 for which I was spending like I owned a Benz. Also the Hyundai service is definitely not lighter on wallets. So strictly no Hyundai in my garage.

Toyota Etios- Did not evaluate because none of us in our family really liked the Etios, though it is good car.

The theme of the above is that none of the C1 segment cars fits our requirements. So had no choice but to move upwards to C2 segment.

The following are the cars which I evaluated in the C2 Segment:

Honda City – The only petrol car that I evaluated because Diesel was way beyond my budget.

Yes this is a Honda product. The sharp lines of the car really make me love this car a lot. I have always admired Honda City all gen models. The car is class apart, very nice and comfortable front and rear seats. However, there was certainly a lag in 3rd and 4th gear at reasonable low rpm speeds. Some what my inner sense said, this car is not worth for 10.7L on road. So dropped this out of the list.

Volkswagen Vento – I have always liked the simple and gentle looks of this car. Somewhat white and blue looks very appealing to me. I got to understand that the 1.6 TDI motor has been replaced with the new 1.5 motor with the same bhp. This is on par with the same downsizing by Skoda too in Rapid.

TD of Vento

I test drove the 1.6 TDI motor. The car very nicely pulls at very low speed in the second gear itself. It is really a torque king. I sometimes get very frustrated with my Manza which houses the 1.3 MJD. Off course, Manza power delivery is more linear compared to Dzire. There is sudden surge or whoosh, but not like that of Dzire .

The Vento ride quality is good, it easily swallows away big potholes and the ground clearance is pretty good.

The really liked the staff in the Volkswagen showroom at Singasandra, Bangalore, they were courteous and I could take the car for more distance than the traditional test drive distance. However felt sorry for a Customer who was screaming at the top of his voice for the delay and frustration created by the VW guys for his car that was promised to be delivered which did not happen.

Coming back to Vento, I understand that certain stocks of 1.6 TDI still exists and there is a good amount of discount, say close to 50K on the final price. Plus if you negotiate more, you may end up with more discount and accessories.

Skoda Rapid- Immediately after Vento, I wanted to TD Rapid. Though I don't find any appreciation for Rapid on this forum , I should say the car is a clear winner. I really liked the interiors. The Ambience version has almost everything in it except the automatic climate control and few other very small features. Overall the engine noise was very much under control when compared to the Vento. In Rapid I drove both 1.6 and 1.5. I really did not feel anything different. However, some what I felt a minor lag in 1.6 in 3rd gear and 4th gear at slightly less rpm as compared to 1.5. I will have to drive the 1.5 again to confirm this. Apart from this, the ride quality was great.

The pricing of Rapid is very competitive. Some good discounts may be possible if you push hard the Sales Guy. I understand that no 1.6 TDI is available in stock currently and Tafe Access is selling only the 1.5TDI. Overall for the time being, I am fixed with Rapid. However, I do not mind evaluating the Ford Ecosport and Renault Duster as well though it belongs to a different segment all together with slightly stretching my budget.

I am yet to TD these two cars. But for the time being its Rapid.

Also one interesting conversation which I had with the sales guy of Tafe Access is that I was discussing about the A.S.S of Skoda and its horror stories. But the reply given by the Sales Guy was quiet impressive. What he said me is that, the Rapid is manufactured in India predominantly and there shall be no delay in availability of spares when the car hits the service center as compared to other models. He gave an example that the front bumper of Rapid costs 3.5K including painting etc as against Octavia which is 25-30K which has to be imported. This is possible because, the Rapid is completely manufactured in India. I really do not know the validity of this statement, but it is pretty convincing to me. Plus I came across some good service feedback by a Skoda owner on the forum. Also the Sales Guy was stating that the service cost of Rapid should be cheaper than the Vento. Currently they offer 15K kms/ 1 year service interval in Rapid which is good as compared to Honda and Hyundai.

Hyundai Verna- No Hyundai as stated earlier. Plus this car was outdated.

Renault Scala - I personally liked the car. Could not get a TD as the car was not available. My people at home did not like the car at all. The interiors looks very dull. Neither the sales guy was keen in exhibiting his car nor i was interested to dig deep on it. But however i understand that there is some amount of cash discount available on the car.

As stated earlier, i shall TD the Ford Ecosport and Renault Duster soon and update my experience shortly.

Last edited by rki2007 : 13th November 2014 at 18:51.
rki2007 is offline  
Old 13th November 2014, 19:08   #941
D4D
BHPian
 
D4D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Garden City
Posts: 482
Thanked: 336 Times
Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by rki2007 View Post

Though I don't find any appreciation for Rapid on this forum
Have you ever found anyone complaining about the car? I haven't. But I've found many people complaining about the ASS quality. Having a bad ASS experience makes car ownership a pain.

Quote:
do not mind evaluating the Ford Ecosport and Renault Duster as well though it belongs to a different segment all together with slightly stretching my budget.
Ecosport is as cramped at a hatch. No way it can match the comfort of the Manza you are used to. The duster is not as spacious as equal price sedans, but a comfortable car as it's wide.

If you're looking at Scala, also consider the Nissan Sunny. Sunny is slightly cheaper than the scala.
D4D is offline  
Old 14th November 2014, 12:07   #942
BHPian
 
quakerme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 118
Thanked: 66 Times
Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Hi all,

Sold my 4 year old companion the ford ikon tdci yesterday, now im on a hunt for a new horse, my budget is max 11L I have narrowed down to the below vehicles TD'd all of them.

1. Ford Ecosport (looks and silent cabin)
2. Ford Fiesta (handling,cruise control , auto rain/light sensors, Aston martin grille)
3. Vento (awesome luxury interiors)
4. Rapid (love all except mileage and ASS)
5. City (above my budget - im not getting the point on why someone should spend another 2L extra just for a brand name)

Please help me choose the right one, my priorities are
1. Safety need driver and pillion side airbags and ABS
2. Need good mileage as I travel at-least 120kms a day (so pref it should be a diesel engine)
3. Good ASS, low maintenance
4. Majority of my drive will be solo only occasional family trip
5. Need a vehicle with good driving dynamics

Please feel free to suggest any other vehicles which can match my criteria.
quakerme is offline  
Old 14th November 2014, 12:23   #943
Distinguished - BHPian
 
lamborghini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 6,162
Thanked: 5,920 Times
Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by quakerme View Post
Hi all,

1. Ford Ecosport (looks and silent cabin)
2. Ford Fiesta (handling,cruise control , auto rain/light sensors, Aston martin grille)
3. Vento (awesome luxury interiors)
4. Rapid (love all except mileage and ASS)
5. City (above my budget - im not getting the point on why someone should spend another 2L extra just for a brand name)

Please help me choose the right one, my priorities are
1. Safety need driver and pillion side airbags and ABS
2. Need good mileage as I travel at-least 120kms a day (so pref it should be a diesel engine)
3. Good ASS, low maintenance
4. Majority of my drive will be solo only occasional family trip
5. Need a vehicle with good driving dynamics

Please feel free to suggest any other vehicles which can match my criteria.
If you are willing to make the compromise on performance, you seem to have answered the question yourself.
As an existing Ikon and Fiesta owner, I loved driving the new Fiesta. It's ride and handling package is clearly a step above, service should be better than the VW/Skoda twins (you would know better, but I assume you wouldn't be looking at Fords if you were not happy with the Ikon).
With the lighter yet stronger metal being used, I would also expect the Fiesta to score better on safety and FE. The added tech like cruise control, sports bucket seats, etc. just go to make living with the car easier.

My biggest turn off on the Vento was its ultra-light steering. It was a pain driving it on local highways!

Last edited by lamborghini : 14th November 2014 at 12:24.
lamborghini is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 14th November 2014, 14:02   #944
BHPian
 
quakerme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 118
Thanked: 66 Times
Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamborghini View Post
but I assume you wouldn't be looking at Fords if you were not happy with the Ikon).
With the lighter yet stronger metal being used, I would also expect the Fiesta to score better on safety and FE. The added tech like cruise control, sports bucket seats, etc. just go to make living with the car easier.

My biggest turn off on the Vento was its ultra-light steering. It was a pain driving it on local highways!
Lamborghini :- Spot on!
I was happy with my Ikon tdci , thats the reason two fords were in the list but i dont want to be a blind "ford bhakt" and buy fiesta without even looking at the pros and cons of the other brands.
Adding a Tuning box after 20k kms is the only way to overcome performance issue however the 1.5 tdci is not that under-powered they say it has one of the best mid-range torque in the market now, But buying a car for 11L ,adding a tuning box after few kms and void warranty/guaranty is it really worth it? that's my confusion now

Last edited by quakerme : 14th November 2014 at 14:06.
quakerme is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 14th November 2014, 14:36   #945
Distinguished - BHPian
 
lamborghini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 6,162
Thanked: 5,920 Times
Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by quakerme View Post
Lamborghini :- Spot on!
I was happy with my Ikon tdci , thats the reason two fords were in the list but i dont want to be a blind "ford bhakt" and buy fiesta without even looking at the pros and cons of the other brands.
Adding a Tuning box after 20k kms is the only way to overcome performance issue however the 1.5 tdci is not that under-powered they say it has one of the best mid-range torque in the market now, But buying a car for 11L ,adding a tuning box after few kms and void warranty/guaranty is it really worth it? that's my confusion now
If it helps, my Laura has been remapped.
Got it done 1 year, 17,500kms down the line.

But yes, a tuning box is more advantageous, as you can disconnect it before sending it in for service, thus not losing warranty. My biggest grouse is all the damned black smoke!
lamborghini is offline   (1) Thanks
Reply

Most Viewed
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks