[fine69]

Originally Posted by Aroy

It is now your call, whether to reject the flat(s) or to change all the pipes in the flat before shifting. It will be hell if you try to do the job piece meal after shifting.

While I'll come back to you for specifics, what kind of money is this going to cost me? During negotiation it'd help if I know the money I'd have to spend upfront before I move in.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by fine69

While I'll come back to you for specifics, what kind of money is this going to cost me? During negotiation it'd help if I know the money I'd have to spend upfront before I move in.

I really have not much of idea, but my estimate is
. 1 day, 2- man-day for breaking the plaster and identifying the pipes at each location
. 2 day, 4 man-day for laying pipes at each location
. 3 days, 6 man-day for plastering and tile laying at each location

So if you have 1 kitchen and 3 toilets
. the labour will be 48 man days at between 1,000 to 1,500 per man day, say 60K for labour
. You will need around 10K worth of pipes and small components per location, that will be 40K
. Tiles are between Rs.60 and Rs300/square foot. If toilet is 5'x8' the tile area is (5+8+5+8)x9 26x9 - doors and windows ~ 210 square feet x 4 ~ 1,000.

That is if the contractor is on item basis, else they will quote a lump sum

[fine69]

Originally Posted by Aroy

I really have not much of idea, but my estimate is...

This helps, thanks! I'm assuming it wouldn't go beyond 2-3 lacs so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

In fact its an excellent suggestion to get this work done once and for all to avoid any seepage related hassles in future.

EDIT: If the tile work is done upto ceiling, doesn't it create issues in identifying seepage in future? While I agree on the point that if tiles are laid only till 6-7 ft then then the edge where it ends definitely accumulates dust and is a pain in cleaning.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by fine69

This helps, thanks! I'm assuming it wouldn't go beyond 2-3 lacs so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

In fact its an excellent suggestion to get this work done once and for all to avoid any seepage related hassles in future.

EDIT: If the tile work is done upto ceiling, doesn't it create issues in identifying seepage in future? While I agree on the point that if tiles are laid only till 6-7 ft then then the edge where it ends definitely accumulates dust and is a pain in cleaning.

2-3 lacs assuming that you retain most of the taps and fixtures, though if the piping was substandard, then the taps and fixtures would also be so, especially if they are the older type with washers. It would be advisable for long term reliability to change all the taps and mixers to modern ceramic cartridge type.

A)
An average toilet has
. 1 single lever bath mixer (diverter)
. 1 water sprout
. 1 Shower head
. 1 hand shower

. 1 stopcock for WC
. 1 tap for WC
. 1 Water Jet for WC

. 1 stopcock for Geyser

. 2 stop cocks for basin
. 1 Single Lever tap for basin
say 11 items which will cost between 25-45K for good brands (Jaguar)

Kitchen has
. 1 dual bowl basin
. 1 single lever basin
. 2 stop cocks for basin
. 1 stop cock for Geyser
. 1 stop cock for Water Purifier

You can get a discount of between 12% and 25% from most of the larger retailers (at least here in South Delhi)

B)
If the water pipes are changed then there is no seepage at 6-10 foot level. On the other hand if the seepage is from the apartment above, then there is a problem. What I would suggest is that you contact Waterproofing Contractors, say Dr. FixIt and let them inject water proofing compound (in a 1 foot grid) on the top 2 feet of every wall as well as the ceilings. This will seal all the micro cracks in that region and prevent any water seepage from the floor above you.

As you will be undertaking a major repair work, get the water proofing done before the tiles are fixed in toilets and kitchen and on all the walls and ceiling of every room before painting

[fine69]

Good news is that the seepage which I was worried about is totally resolvable. There is absolutely no seepage issue in any of the ceilings and only bathroom adjoining walls so its completed repairable.

Not so good news is that I've run into some issue with the broker involved in the transaction, trying to sort that out.

Originally Posted by Aroy

It would be advisable for long term reliability to change all the taps and mixers to modern ceramic cartridge type.

Yep, all the fittings would have to be changed. The plumber I took along was an expert and explained each of the causes and I'm convinced that after bathroom revamp is done, we should be good.

Originally Posted by Aroy

If the water pipes are changed then there is no seepage at 6-10 foot level. On the other hand if the seepage is from the apartment above, then there is a problem. What I would suggest is that you contact Waterproofing Contractors, say Dr. FixIt and let them inject water proofing compound (in a 1 foot grid) on the top 2 feet of every wall as well as the ceilings. This will seal all the micro cracks in that region and prevent any water seepage from the floor above you.

The first thing plumber suggested was to get the tile work done till ceiling, I think you suggested the same as well. Then he said something about getting cement grouting done in the water drain in the above apartment so that no water comes from up above in future. The process as I understand is simple and the tenant above this apartment shouldn't mind that.

Originally Posted by Aroy

As you will be undertaking a major repair work, get the water proofing done before the tiles are fixed in toilets and kitchen and on all the walls and ceiling of every room before painting

I'm trying to figure out details of this process, what is this compound used, how long does it last (coz these have varied warranty, 2 yrs, 5 yrs etc.) and what's the tentative cost. Else the plumber was also suggesting something which would ensure that the water just doesn't stay in the wall and would go down instead. I'll check with him again once the deal is finalized.

On the material, you suggested uPVC but the plumber suggested CPVC because it has a better tolerance for hot water, as per him its more expensive as well. Any thoughts?

On the pipe diameter, he said that since the pipe from the top is wide enough, I might not need 25mm dia pipes but if it helps run the shower mixer more effectively then I'll push for 25mm dia pipes.

So basically these things need attention before I move in the house

1) Water pipes across all bathrooms and kitchen would need a replacement, so would the fittings. Of course, tiles up to the ceiling for all bathrooms.

2) Modular kitchen, whatever 1.5-2 lacs it would cost. Question here, is it better to invest a little more and get marble or granite slab running all across instead of other material?

3) Flooring - All bedroom flooring is currently those wooden vinly/sheet kind and would need a replacement.

4) Electrical fittings - I wouldn't know where to start from but it'd need some brainstorming to figure out what all points to get made etc.

5) Paint

Anything else which is fundamental and I'm skipping it?

Doors are in good shape as of now, the glass doors which open in the large balcony may need a replacement later but I could live with them for now.

I'm skipping on wood work for now because the budget is getting stretched. Maybe 1 or 2 years down the line when I'd have some surplus I'd get those wall to wall cupboards etc. made

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by fine69

Good news is that the seepage which I was worried about is totally resolvable. There is absolutely no seepage issue in any of the ceilings and only bathroom adjoining walls so its completed repairable.

Not so good news is that I've run into some issue with the broker involved in the transaction, trying to sort that out.

Yep, all the fittings would have to be changed. The plumber I took along was an expert and explained each of the causes and I'm convinced that after bathroom revamp is done, we should be good.

Get a detailed list of all the items needed. Then go to a few shops both in Noida and Delhi and get the rates. For taps etc, my experience is that Jaguar is the best bet, compared to exotic brands like Grohe, Roca etc. The reason is that not only is the quality as good at a much less cost, but they have a spares catalog so long term maintenance will be easy.

The first thing plumber suggested was to get the tile work done till ceiling, I think you suggested the same as well. Then he said something about getting cement grouting done in the water drain in the above apartment so that no water comes from up above in future. The process as I understand is simple and the tenant above this apartment shouldn't mind that.

Simple grouting has a short life and may start leaking in a few years. The water proofing I had suggested injects special chemicals at high pressure (pressure grouting) which seal micro cracks in the walls and concrete. Unless the masonry moves physically, it is good enough for 20 years plus. The trick is to inject it at high pressure on a dense grid (0.5m - 1m).

I'm trying to figure out details of this process, what is this compound used, how long does it last (coz these have varied warranty, 2 yrs, 5 yrs etc.) and what's the tentative cost. Else the plumber was also suggesting something which would ensure that the water just doesn't stay in the wall and would go down instead. I'll check with him again once the deal is finalized.

Contact DrFixit or SIICO. They do it practically every where on small scale and on Industrial scale.

On the material, you suggested uPVC but the plumber suggested CPVC because it has a better tolerance for hot water, as per him its more expensive as well. Any thoughts?

He may be right. I have seen thick hot-water compatible piping being installed by builders in new houses


On the pipe diameter, he said that since the pipe from the top is wide enough, I might not need 25mm dia pipes but if it helps run the shower mixer more effectively then I'll push for 25mm dia pipes.

As single lever mixers need a lot more pressure than normal ones, a larger diameter pipe will be a boon. Then if you want a large diameter shower it will need more water flow.

So basically these things need attention before I move in the house

1) Water pipes across all bathrooms and kitchen would need a replacement, so would the fittings. Of course, tiles up to the ceiling for all bathrooms.

2) Modular kitchen, whatever 1.5-2 lacs it would cost. Question here, is it better to invest a little more and get marble or granite slab running all across instead of other material?

3) Flooring - All bedroom flooring is currently those wooden vinly/sheet kind and would need a replacement.

4) Electrical fittings - I wouldn't know where to start from but it'd need some brainstorming to figure out what all points to get made etc.

5) Paint

Anything else which is fundamental and I'm skipping it?

Doors are in good shape as of now, the glass doors which open in the large balcony may need a replacement later but I could live with them for now.

I'm skipping on wood work for now because the budget is getting stretched. Maybe 1 or 2 years down the line when I'd have some surplus I'd get those wall to wall cupboards etc. made

Some answers are in bold. The rest

1) Perfect

2) Unless you get a modular kitchen from abroad, they are all made here in India. The problem is that the bonding of laminate to wood is not as good. I personally prefer to use "Marine Grade" plywood and get the kitchen made by a carpenter. For fittings (hardware) the best and most popular is "Hettich"
https://www.hettich.com/in_EN/home.html

For counter tops nothing beats black/maroon granite.
We have lined the kitchen walls with tiles.
We have also lined all boxes at ground level with floor tiles - both on the bottom and the walls. That keeps the cabinets clean and no need of periodic painting.

3) Unless you want to raise the floors or carry out extensive breaking, your only option is to use large size floor tiles. Check out the range at any large Kajaria outlet to get an idea.

4) Electrical fittings are dependent on the wires. If the plumbing was cheap, so will the wires be. So you have to get an expert electrician to check the current wires. Most probably they will be undersized, in which case it is best to change them. Just keep one fact in mind. As we progress our appetite for electricity goes up. Where 3KW was sufficient 20 years ago, we now need upwards of 10KW - multiple AC, Heaters, Geysers, Washing Machines, Dish Washers and of course computers - all guzzle up electricity. You not only have to change the wiring but the main distribution board to cater to increasing electricity demand.

You may also want to change the switch boards if the current ones are substandard. If you are going to change the wires and switchboards you might as well as check the location of switches and add a few more boards to suit your convenience. This job is best done before painting as you may need to install new electrical pipes and any way new switchboards may need a bit of civil work.

5) As you are getting all work done before shifting, please let the plaster dry out for three or more days before starting painting.

Finally, best of luck on your new flat. Hope that you are able to carry out all the improvements necessary so that you have a fantastic flat.

[nowwhat?]

Originally Posted by fine69

On the material, you suggested uPVC but the plumber suggested CPVC because it has a better tolerance for hot water, as per him its more expensive as well. Any thoughts?

CPVC is preferred these days by plumbers for piping and I have been told it is because:

• CPVC tolerates both hot and cold water whereas uPVC only works with regular water.
• uPVC pipes tend to crack after some time whereas CPVC doesn't.
• uPVC pipes are joined using solvent (fumes of this can make one dizzy) whereas CPVC uses a safer and specialized cement.

Before CPVC, there were usually only two choices: GI pipes which were expensive and required a whole lot of work for cutting, threading, etc. or uPVC which was cheap.

As regards hot water, the operational word as one can see with CPVC is tolerance for hot water, however CPVC in and of itself provides zero insulation for hot water. With GI pipes, plumbers would coil it with asbestos rope (dangerous, I know) and then add a larger diameter PVC pipe on the outside.

So my question to others is: How does one insulate CPVC pipes for hot water?

Even in the case of the aforesaid GI pipe with asbestos insulation, obtaining hot water means that one has to first deplete all the water in the pipe until the solar water heater (in my case) or geyser starts supplying hot water. This doesn't work too well with taps with mixers as you have to waste a whole lot of water to get to the hot water, by that time in all probability any washroom activity would already be over.

I have been looking into this and one surefire way is to have all plumbing in the form of a closed loop with a pump below that would periodically recirculate hot water back into the solar water heater tank. However this is definitely not cost effective and I would like to know if there are any other solutions. I am fascinated by wash basins at 5-star hotels that provide hot water at a flick of the handle, I wonder how they do it.

[Aroy]

To get hot water immediately in the tap, you have to have a closed loop recirculating the hot water constantly, there is no way out of it. In a closed loop you have to ensure that the final leg is as short as possible, that means that the pipe carrying recirculating hot water runs next to every outlet using hot water - shower, basin etc. In most cases where there is a geyser it is also in the loop.

This generally requires thorough planning of the recirculating water routes, which most of the plumbing contractors are not familiar with. So either you design the routing or get help from plumbing contractors/architect who design such systems for large hotels.

The plumbing is similar to chilled water AC systems.

[Guite]

A few thoughts occur in my mind about hot water recirculation.

It would be water efficient but energy inefficient. Five star hotels can afford it but they charge you a bomb for it. I currently stay in a Taj group resort and its not instant hot water from the taps.

Plumbing would be complicated to be done on a household level. Chilled water piping is different because the water is not consumed; same volume of water is being push around in circles. In case of hot water recirculation in household plumbing I suppose there will be some amount of automation required in terms of water level sensor starting a pump, etc. I am equally curious how it is done.

[nowwhat?]

Originally Posted by Aroy

To get hot water immediately in the tap, you have to have a closed loop recirculating the hot water constantly, there is no way out of it.

Originally Posted by Guite

It would be water efficient but energy inefficient. Five star hotels can afford it but they charge you a bomb for it. I currently stay in a Taj group resort and its not instant hot water from the taps.

Getting a closed loop system done would require extensive renovation for me. However I am curious to know if anyone has done it.

Insulation for the hot water pipe would be the most energy efficient way. If there was any way that I could make hot water come out of the tap for an hour or two after using it, that would be well worth it. Unfortunately I haven't heard of any hot water insulation for CPVC. The GI pipe wrapped in asbestos I mentioned earlier barely holds heat for 10-15 minutes on a cold winter day.

[carboy]

Have a problem with my bathroom. Between two floor tiles, a very very mild gap seems to have happened. How do I seal this? Should I seal it with white cement? Is this something I can do on my own? Or should I call someone? It's just one line between 2 particular tiles.

[deehunk]

If the gap is not wide, use a small screw driver and remove the old fillings. Refill the gap with White Cement.

[sudev]

Better to seal with grout. Available with tile / marble shops. You can add color is any shade matching is to be done. Alternate is to use two part epoxy like araldite. Provides minor flex for expansion contraction related to heat cold cycle.

[condor]

Guys, I am looking for this type of cabinet door handles. This is from Collins India, but has been discontinued.

[vibbs]

Guys need a help. I have just bought a flat for own use. The builder does not allow us to install external grills on the windows. I am not too fond of having them fitted internally as they will spoil the look. Specially with the balcony doors (Sliding glass doors total width of 9 feet). Ideally for this big area, I ll need a collapsible grill, but having it internally will be an eye sore unless I find ways to make it look good. Any idea or examples of aesthetically done collapsible/sliding grills?

Alternatively I am also lookin at getting the glasses changed to Toughened/Glazed ones. Apparantly there are Burglar poorf Glass available in the market (like https://www.aisvue.com/upvc-doors-wi...ated-glass.php). But really dont know if they are strong enough to do away with safety grills.

Any help would be great.