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Old 20th June 2020, 10:03   #1111
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Originally Posted by hondafanboy View Post
A big thank you to BHPian @keroo1099 who sent me the house plan for 40x50 and now I can see and as you mentioned the plot size is good enough.
I have a 40x120 plot of corner land in a layout and am likely to start construction in 2021. It is actually two plots of 40x60 connected on the shorter side, resulting in this wierd dimension. I booked these corner plots as on two sides there can be no structures that can come up ever. It would be great if you can pm me the plan you got on the 40x50 from keroo1099.
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:55   #1112
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Originally Posted by hondafanboy View Post
I wish the dimensions were in meters but no its a 222 sqyd or 40ftx50ft plot.
My plot is 30' x 70' in Delhi.

I have built up only 800 sq.feet per floor. So If you want a garden then your options are

1. Build a duplex. I have 1 DR, 1 BR (with attached bath), Kitchen and dining space.
2. FF has three bedrooms and two bathrooms.
3. Terrace has a store room and bathroom.

That leaves me with three open spaces
. 15' x 30' feet in front
. 25' x 30' garden at back
. 4' x 24' side lane

I have a 26' x 8' balcony in front, which gives me a big covered open space.

You can also make provisions for
. Lift
. Terrace garden
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Old 21st June 2020, 12:04   #1113
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Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
The Council of Architects guidelines look great on paper, but I don't think many small/medium or for that matter well established firms sized firms follow it to the letter, and neither does the client.

Most people building a house want a single point entity who is responsible for design and execution which means the architect ends up being associated with the project for the entire duration, which is anywhere from 12-15 months, and hence the fees is also usually spread out for the duration of the project.

IMHO, a fee structure based on cost per sft is the fairest option for both client and architect.
1. You don't have to follow it COA standard contracts to the letter. You can use their standard formats to work out your contracts and make the necessary changes. The Scope of Work may changes from the standard format and the fee should also be revised accordingly. This is what I wrote. I know market realities are very different (I have survived 17 years working as an architect and doing only consulting, so I know the 0.5% market realities and those who make a plan for Rs 5,000 and give it you and disappear for ever.) When we work out contracts, we start with the guidelines and do give discounts to clients based on market realities, reduction in scope or, sometimes, simply goodwill.

2. The fee structure in the CoA guidelines includes 'occasional supervision' in the Scope. If the client wants a single point of contact, then he can also insert a 'daily supervision' or 'full-supervision' contract and revise the fee upwards accordingly.

The architect is not the project manager by default, so, if he takes on project management, his fee changes. This way 'Design and Execution' is both managed by the architect but he's still not the contractor. The Council forbids you from contracting, not from project management.

Nevertheless, as we all know an overwhelmingly huge number of architects still do contracting, partly because you practically can't live with the fee that clients are willing to give you as per 'market realities' (as per CoA guidelines, the fees are fine, actually). They simply register the contracting firms in the name of their brother, father, spouse or partner. Aside from the legality of the whole thing, it is the client's choice if he's comfortable in having the same person be the designer, the person in charge of quality and the person who is benefiting from poor quality at the same time!

3. If you want the fee structure in sq ft, it is all right. One can simply work out the cost of the building and fix the fee in percentage and then divide the total fee by the Built-Up area. IMO, that is not a correct way to do it, because 99% clients increase their budgets as they go along but they never increase the architect's fee. So simply said, when you negotiate the architect's fee, you say that your budget is X but eventually you make a building for X+1 and you never increase the architect's fee. Do bear in mind that it is also the responsibility of the architect to make correct estimates at every stage and also apprise the clients of the expected variations in the estimate as they go along.

If one really wants fairness, one needs to work out the scope of the work, the quality expected (mostly intangible) and fix the fee at the start. Regardless of cost escalations.

Last edited by architect : 21st June 2020 at 12:14.
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Old 21st June 2020, 12:18   #1114
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Originally Posted by hondafanboy View Post
A quick question to the architects or the subject matter experts. For 5 member family , would the plot size of 40x50 be enough ? I am wondering after leaving the required setbacks , would it be enough to build specious 3bhk, a small but not too small front garden and parking for 2 cars. Thanks!
Assuming you are giving the dimensions in feet (you've not specified it!), it would not give a nice house on one floor. You will definitely need two floors to get a nice house and the necessary open spaces on the ground. The great thing about your plot is the excellent frontage as it affords two-and-a-half to three bays on the width side of the plot whereas most urban plots nowadays give you barely two bays. (A bay is a structural division, i.e. space between the adjacent column / beam grids, which is wide enough for a habitable space).

Last edited by architect : 21st June 2020 at 12:21.
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Old 21st June 2020, 12:21   #1115
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1. You don't have to follow it COA standard contracts to the letter. You can use their standard formats to work out your contracts and make the necessary changes

2. The free structure in the CoA guidelines includes 'occasional supervision' in the Scope. If the client wants a single point of contact, then he can also insert a 'daily supervision' or 'full-supervision' contract and revise the fee upwards accordingly.

The architect is not the project manager by default. If he takes on project management, his fee changes. This way 'Design and Execution' is both managed by the architect but he's still not the contractor. The Council forbids you from contracting, not from project management.

Nevertheless, a huge number of architects still do contracting, partly because you practically can't live with the fee that clients are willing to give you. They simply register the contracting firms in the name of their brother, father, spouse or partner.

Aside from the legality of the whole thing, it is the client's choice if he's comfortable in having the same person be the designer, the person in charge of quality and the person who is benefiting from poor quality at the same time!

3. If you want the fee structure in sq ft, it is all right. One can simply work out the cost of the building and fix the fee in percentage and then divide the total fee by the Built-Up area. IMO, that is not a correct way to do it, because 99% clients increase their budgets as they go along but they never increase the architect's fee. So simply said, when you negotiate the architect's fee, you say that your budget is X but eventually you make a building for X+1 and you never increase the architect's fee. Do bear in mind that it is also the responsibility of the architect to make correct estimates at every stage and also apprise the clients of the expected variations in the estimate as they go along.

If one really wants fairness, one needs to work out the scope of the work, the quality expected (mostly intangible) and fix the fee at the start. Regardless of cost escalations.
Agree in most part with whatever you said, but on #3 it's really hard to work out an accurate budget when a house typically takes 12-15 months to complete and deciding on finishes (tiles, flooring material, bathroom fittings, electrical switches, etc.) becomes a moot point when you actually go and select said items about 6 months into the project at which point cost of items usually change.

I find breaking the contract between a client and the contractor into two parts works for me, the client and the contractor without having to constantly redo estimates. The first is for the 'Shell' portion of the building which stays pretty constant followed by the 'Finishes' contract that is worked out once the shell nears completion.

I completely agree with you that most architects get a raw deal when it comes to fees.

Cheers.
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Old 21st June 2020, 12:28   #1116
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Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
Agree in most part with whatever you said, but on #3 it's really hard to work out an accurate budget when a house typically takes 12-15 months to complete and deciding on finishes (tiles, flooring material, bathroom fittings, electrical switches, etc.) becomes a moot point when you actually go and select said items about 6 months into the project at which point cost of items usually change.

I find breaking the contract between a client and the contractor into two parts works for me, the client and the contractor without having to constantly redo estimates. The first is for the 'Shell' portion of the building which stays pretty constant followed by the 'Finishes' contract that is worked out once the shell nears completion.

I completely agree with you that most architects get a raw deal when it comes to fees.

Cheers.
Yes, we have to do and re-do the contracts many different ways to account for realities. However, the clients typically don't appreciate the importance or the effort going into the contracts.

For Finishes, we always prefer breaking items into base price of purchased items and labour. Because the average client will choose a Rs 50/- product during estimation and then select a Rs 200/- product during execution!

This was my advice to the OP: consider the architect on your (client's) side and let him work out the best contracts with your contractors for your quality (without imposing unfair terms on the contractors at the same time. If the contract is heavily one-sided, most contractors will take up the work and stall or abandon the work midway)
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Old 23rd June 2020, 17:21   #1117
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re: Home Construction / Makeover / Maintenance Thread

Can anyone tell for exposed red brick work what should be cement-sand ratio in mortar?
Architect and contractor said 1:6 however read online 1:4
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Old 23rd June 2020, 17:49   #1118
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Can anyone tell for exposed red brick work what should be cement-sand ratio in mortar?
Architect and contractor said 1:6 however read online 1:4
Depends on quality of cement etc. you can use anything between 1:4 to 1:6

In frame structure where bricks walls are not load bearing, we typically use 1:6 for full brick thick walls (230 / 250 mm thick) and 1:4 for half brick thick walls. In case you ever use brick-on-edge (75 mm thick walls), you can make the mix richer to 1:3.

We use a lot of exposed brick and we have been using the same mix. Even the items for exposed brick work in CPWD DSR 2018 go with 1:6 (item nos 6.26 to 6.31)

I think the richer mix (1:4 for full brick and 1:3 for half brick) would be mostly used in load-bearing masonry and in foundations, depending upon the structural engineer's advice.
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Old 24th June 2020, 10:30   #1119
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Can anyone tell for exposed red brick work what should be cement-sand ratio in mortar?
Architect and contractor said 1:6 however read online 1:4
The cement to sand ratio for exposed brick should be high as the mortar will be exposed to water, hence has to be water proof. There fore a 1:4 or even 1:3 is desirable. If you suspect water seepage after building the wall a coat of water proofing paint on the exposed mortar will seal it.

Exposed brick walls are generally build using polished machine made bricks, so insist that all the bricks used are whole and not chipped. Normal bricks are porous and will seep water. Many a contractor will use chipped broken pieces and then use plaster with red colour to patch it. That will eventually erode and mar the show. As polished bricks have low adhesion you will have to treat the surfaces that are in contact with mortar to increase adhesion.
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Old 24th June 2020, 15:59   #1120
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In frame structure where bricks walls are not load bearing, we typically use 1:6 for full brick thick walls (230 / 250 mm thick) and 1:4 for half brick thick walls. In case you ever use brick-on-edge (75 mm thick walls), you can make the mix richer to 1:3.

We use a lot of exposed brick and we have been using the same mix. Even the items for exposed brick work in CPWD DSR 2018 go with 1:6 (item nos 6.26 to 6.31)
The walls are not load bearing. RCC frame structure is there and exposed brick is for exterior walls. Exterior walls are 9 inch think.So I guess 1:6 should hold

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The cement to sand ratio for exposed brick should be high as the mortar will be exposed to water, hence has to be water proof. There fore a 1:4 or even 1:3 is desirable. If you suspect water seepage after building the wall a coat of water proofing paint on the exposed mortar will seal it.

Exposed brick walls are generally build using polished machine made bricks, so insist that all the bricks used are whole and not chipped. Normal bricks are porous and will seep water. Many a contractor will use chipped broken pieces and then use plaster with red colour to patch it. That will eventually erode and mar the show. As polished bricks have low adhesion you will have to treat the surfaces that are in contact with mortar to increase adhesion.
Bricks are taken care off. These are facing bricks meant for exposed brick walls and not normal red bricks. I have used splid blocks for all plastered surfaces.
After lots of trials like keeping samples dipped in water for 3 days gone with 5 hole perforated Mangalore clay bricks as they are properly baked from inside as well.
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Old 26th June 2020, 13:03   #1121
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re: Home Construction / Makeover / Maintenance Thread

Hi Guys, I have a few queries about painting one of our recently handed over apartments. I wanted to get the following things done:

1. Paint the interiors of the apartment - nothing fancy, just the usual Asian Paints/Berger - mono colours.

2. Do up the kitchen with very basic storage units

My questions are:

1. How long does it usually take to paint a house which is around 1815 sq. ft super built up? It's a 3BHK, 2 Baths, 1 dining and 1 living room and a kitchen.

2. How much would it cost me to get the painting done from Asian Paints? Other option is to just source the paint from AP and get the painting done by a local 'mistiri' and not by the AP guys since that would bring down the costs substantially I feel.

3. How much do you think basic kitchen work will cost?

Just a bit of a background: This apartment is new and was handed over last year. We have managed to get the basic electrical work done but other major works are pending. Reason for going basic right now is I am thinking of letting it out on rent.

Any suggestions will be helpful.

Last edited by Pancham : 26th June 2020 at 13:07.
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Old 26th June 2020, 22:29   #1122
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Continuing on the exposed brick masonry. Various contractors suggest painting bricks with brick colour cement paint or before pointing the joints.

I read about brick hardener chemicals online mostly on foreign websites. Is there any product like this available in India which can be applied to seal facing bricks and retaining natural looks.
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Old 29th June 2020, 16:30   #1123
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Continuing on the exposed brick masonry. Various contractors suggest painting bricks with brick colour cement paint or before pointing the joints.

I read about brick hardener chemicals online mostly on foreign websites. Is there any product like this available in India which can be applied to seal facing bricks and retaining natural looks.
Not used brick hardener ever.

The biggest problem you will face with exposed brickwork is the white patches that will develop in a few weeks after masonry is done. This mostly happens because of chemicals in the water used during construction: efflorescence. There is no real foolproof method to fix this, because you don't get sweet water anywhere now, let alone in huge quantities for construction. But you can try washing the brick wall surface with tamarind water to get rid of the white efflorescence marks when it appears. I am enclosing a photo to show you efflorescence.

Home Construction / Makeover / Maintenance Thread-01.jpg

Home Construction / Makeover / Maintenance Thread-02.jpg

Instead of painting the brick, I would suggest you leave them in a natural state and colour the mortar (which is the ugly light grey cement colour) with a pigment. You can use natural pigment ('surkhi') or expensive pigments from laticrete. In the first photo, where I have shown efflorescence, there is no pigment; in the second we have used pigment. As you can see the variation in colour of the bricks (we bought normal bricks not special ones to keep costs under control) looks good with the pigment making mortar joints uniform. It also gives you the 'aged' look much faster. In the photo we have used laticrete pigment.

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Originally Posted by Pancham View Post
My questions are:

1. How long does it usually take to paint a house which is around 1815 sq. ft super built up? It's a 3BHK, 2 Baths, 1 dining and 1 living room and a kitchen.

2. How much would it cost me to get the painting done from Asian Paints? Other option is to just source the paint from AP and get the painting done by a local 'mistiri' and not by the AP guys since that would bring down the costs substantially I feel.

3. How much do you think basic kitchen work will cost?

Just a bit of a background: This apartment is new and was handed over last year. We have managed to get the basic electrical work done but other major works are pending. Reason for going basic right now is I am thinking of letting it out on rent.

Any suggestions will be helpful.
Cost of painting depends on the condition of the base (wall surface) at present. If the base is good and not much work is needed on it you can get painting done for anything between Rs 14-18 per sq ft of wall area (Delhi rates). Bulk rates are slightly cheaper so Asian Paints contractor may be a little cheaper. This is normal emulsion with roller.

If you want Oil-Bound Distemper (OBD) you will get it cheaper by another Rs 2-3 per sq foot. If the work involves a lot of repair of surface, your cost could go upto Rs 22 per sq ft. This is for good quality work.

Making a good surface (if it is not so currently) is a one-time investment. It reduces the cost of painting and the time needed in all subsequent years. So I would highly recommend not skimping costs there.

It will take about a week to do all walls and wooden surfaces (if any, like doors, windows, cupboards, etc. if they are not laminated) provided surface condition is good.

With regular marine ply laminated at a workshop or at site, it will cost you between Rs 1000/- to Rs 1400/- per sq foot of frontage area for cupboards in the kitchen of depth 2 feet. This rate is for woodwork, finishing, handles, hinges etc. All specialised kitchen modular accessories are separate and best bought personally in one go. The cost of stone counter is extra.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 29th June 2020 at 19:22. Reason: Back to back posts merged.
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Old 29th June 2020, 18:21   #1124
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C
If you want Oil-Bound Distemper (OBD) you will get it cheaper by another Rs 2-3 per sq foot. If the work involves a lot of repair of surface, your cost could go upto Rs 22 per sq ft. This is for good quality work.

With regular marine ply laminated at a workshop or at site, it will cost you between Rs 1000/- to Rs 1400/- per sq foot of frontage area for cupboards in the kitchen of depth 2 feet. This rate is for woodwork, finishing, handles, hinges etc. All specialised kitchen modular accessories are separate and best bought personally in one go. The cost of stone counter is extra.
Many thanks for your detailed response. Another noob question: Is monsoon the right season to get the interiors painted? If not, what issues can I face going forward?

Also, by stone counter you mean the granite work right? That has already been provided by the builder. Also, the walls are overall in good condition since the apartment has just been handed over. Some levelling work may be required though.
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Old 29th June 2020, 18:47   #1125
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Is monsoon the right season to get the interiors painted? If not, what issues can I face going forward?
Not really. It will take longer for every coat and the overall wall in drying. However, on a more humanitarian note, scores of petty contractors are literally on the verge of starvation. Even a small work like a flat would be godsend for them, so please give them extra time to do a good job and give them work. If they do it carefully and dry every coat properly, it shouldn't be a major issue if the walls themselves are dry.
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