[ashokrajagopal]

Lets try to uncomplicate.

If you share your private information, then the vendor will use that to sell you stuff, and it goes on. The issues, pitfalls, so on. This is one thing.

All people, including political parties are allowed to use platforms to ideate and spread their ideas and do other stuff. This is also fine.

This also means that if a party wants to use Facebook to manipulate you as the user, they may do so by employing 100 people, a bot which can spin into multiple personalities or whatever.
The game shifts as a whole when the platform provider does that for an entity.
That simply means the rest of the people using the platform are sitting ducks because the platform provider always has the inherent advantage.

To solve, this or any other type of issue isnt that tough either. While platform providers may sell the data to advertise cookies or jeans or cars, the states have to create strict "no-no" areas. So, if FB in future is approached by an entity for data, they have to get in writing from the entity as to what purpose this data is going to be used for, and FB can safely give away data, or work with the entity based on clear documentation.
Will entities still misuse the data ? Yes, but its not the platform's problem and FB may very well sue the entity for millions if such a thing happens.

But such legislation requires two things
a) A democracy(and a governing party) that thinks taking the house's help in a game is cheating.
b) A platform that genuinely only wants to remain the platform and not manipulate people's thoughts.

[vinit.merchant]

It is not directly related to the topic of this thread, but I would like to put across a very recent experience.

Yesterday, while having tea with colleagues, I talked about how the powered nut driver was used incorrectly at tire shops once had the bolt stuck inside, with the bolt head come off. Just a normal discussion between colleagues of something that happened 6-8 years back.

I did not search for it anywhere.

After office, reached home and opened you tube on my mobile, and the first advertisement that Youtube showed me was "Damaged nut bolt remover set[50% off]"

This definitely spooked me big time. The next thing I did was go to app preferences -> app permissions -> microphone and removed google from accessing it, and many other apps that do not need access to it. Only kept the phone and video calling apps there.

This is the level to which they spy on us, just for the purpose of pushing advertisements and making money off it.
I have saved the screenshot of the advert on my mobile and will try to post it here from the mobile site, if possible.

Could not find any other thread to post this, hence posting it here.

EDIT: My phone was not even in my hand. It was in my pocket.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

...can they pick up my phone number by my simply visiting their site for less than two minutes? Can the IT experts opine. Or is it that it is just common practise to say such things.

The agent may very well be bluffing, but it's isn't difficult to triangulate details.

Easiest way of course is if you've allowed access to your info to various apps (including Google's own services), they'll know pretty much everything about you right off your device and internet usage patterns.

If you're the paranoid type who doesn't hand out information easily and watches app permissions like a hawk, they could still glean this info indirectly from a contact on your phone who isn't so diligent, or another app/service that has more intrusive access than others. Track the mark, or track someone else who does!

I think we had a previous conversation elsewhere about someone being able to track down a secret meeting you had with someone, arranged completely offline at your end, but the other person used the internet for aspects of it (reservations, maps, calendar entries).

The info is out there to leverage, the intent may very well be too.

Once someone has a unique identifier established (your device in this case), it's possible in a hundred ways to run a 'what else do we know about this device and its user(s)' algorithm. No individual entity needs to know everything about you, as long as a bunch of interconnected systems do.

P.S. That isn't intended to spook you. The same mechanisms are used to deliver the 'intuitive' services that make up our modern day-to-day living, but it goes back to my intent comment.

[srishiva]

I think Facebook knows there are loopholes in law and nothing can be done to them. The way they go round and round answering questions shows their disdain in the system. Unless laws are enacted, nothing is going to change.

As its known free services leads to creative ways of monetizing them. Every app we use today from search to social media is rigged to gain advantage.

[Samurai]

Looks like Facebook employees are also not liking where this is going.

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1188873278812803072

[Added_flavor]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This morning I get a call from some call centre agent who introduced him self as being from Mahindra & Mahindra. Now I am not on FaceBook or Twitter or Instagram. By the norms of today I keep a low social media footprint. This call centre agent then says, "that you visited our website a few days ago and hence I am calling you to check your interest in our products". Fact is I did visit their website through my android hand held but can they pick up my phone number by my simply visiting their site for less than two minutes? Can the IT experts opine. Or is it that it is just common practise to say such things.

There are multiple ways this can happen. Let me try and explain a few since I work on a digital marketing product that revolves around intelligent and hyper-personalized end-user targeting.

1. You went to their website and filled in their lead form and/or registered yourself (where you voluntarily provided your PII - Personally Identifiable information).

2. All these enterprises across verticals (Real estate, Banking, E-com, hospitality etc.) work with digital marketing vendors/agencies who 'sell' categorized databases. They can be categorized as - Frequent Flyers, HNI database, Non-HNI database, E-Com Shoppers, etc. These databases can be either purchased or used for affiliate marketing through these agencies, based on the most relevant target group that the business demands. So, the agent might have called you through one of these. How they procure and nurture these databases, check with any and every entity (including your Telco) that has access to your number. Any of them could have sold it.

3. Based on the above affiliate marketing techniques, you might have clicked on a "Trackable" hyperlink that you might have received through SMS. There are companies that offer these trackable bitly link capabilities to enterprises. You will be surprised to know, that once you, the end user clicks on the link, your mobile number, IP based geolocation (Not 100% accurate), the smartphone you are using, the browser you're accessing the website from etc. can be tracked WITHOUT taking consent from you (Unlike an App).

These are some examples of targeting marketing and lead generation techniques. It's a vast market and nobody is really shielded from it.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This morning I get a call from some call centre agent who introduced him self as being from Mahindra & Mahindra. Now I am not on FaceBook or Twitter or Instagram. By the norms of today I keep a low social media footprint. This call centre agent then says, "that you visited our website a few days ago and hence I am calling you to check your interest in our products". Fact is I did visit their website through my android hand held but can they pick up my phone number by my simply visiting their site for less than two minutes? Can the IT experts opine. Or is it that it is just common practise to say such things.

Yes, its technically possible, and T-mobile and AT&T etc., in the USA have been caught selling this information. This includes Name, Billing address and phone number.
I have no idea if Indian mobile operators sell this.

Secondly for some operators, this data is being sent directly. Check this website from your phone on mobile data if you wanna check it out
https://www.mulliner.org/pc.cgi


The key sent is : HTTP_X_UP_CALLING_LINE_ID

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Added_flavor

There are multiple ways this can happen. Let me try and explain a few since I work on a digital marketing product that revolves around intelligent and hyper-personalized end-user targeting.

1. You went to their website and filled in their lead form and/or registered yourself (where you voluntarily provided your PII - Personally Identifiable information).

How they procure and nurture these databases, check with any and every entity (including your Telco) that has access to your number. Any of them could have sold it.

3. Based on the above affiliate marketing techniques, you might have clicked on a "Trackable" hyperlink that you might have received through SMS.

First things first, my thanks to you for taking the trouble to explain. Where digital footprint is concerned I am paranoid and very careful and I never fill up these forms except on news sites which I wish to subscribe to and of course aviation sites which used to be my business. Maybe that's where they picked it up. But I definitely did not fill in a form for Mahindra or Amazon/Flipkart though another car OEM, Lexus, do have my data.

These are some examples of targeting marketing and lead generation techniques. It's a vast market and nobody is really shielded from it.

You bet. Well said.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Yes, its technically possible ...
Check this website from your phone on mobile data if you wanna check it out
https://www.mulliner.org/pc.cgi
The key sent is : HTTP_X_UP_CALLING_LINE_ID

Thanks tsk1979

[Samurai]

This is big... Twitter bans political ads on its platform, worldwide. Now the pressure is on Facebook.

https://twitter.com/jack/status/1189634360472829952

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by Added_flavor

3. Based on the above affiliate marketing techniques, you might have clicked on a "Trackable" hyperlink that you might have received through SMS.

You do not have to click on any link to be tracked. Most web pages have trackers. In fact, just 2 or 3 requests might go to the original website. But 50 requests go to the trackers, which monitor your activity online.

The latest version of Firefox blocks these trackers by default.

Chrome is owned by Google, an internet ad company. So it will be against the philosophy of Google to block ads. Still, you can use this Chrome addon to block tracking web sites - https://chrome.google.com/webstore/d...dnhcphjbkeiagm

[luvDriving]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

It is not directly related to the topic of this thread, but I would like to put across a very recent experience.

I have had such experiences a number of times. e.g. I was discussing my mother's trip to New Zealand. I had yet to go to the internet to search for any flights or do any research. We were just discussing the dates she could go and all such.

Immediately when I opened up my computer, sure enough there were ads from Cathay pacific showing prices for flights to Auckland (that was where she was headed).

I am very sure that anyone who leaves the microphone on for google will have some software listening for keywords in Indian accents and then target specific ads at that target. So while it may not be immediately harmful, it is surely an infringement on privacy (since data is being collected without consent) and annoying as well.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by Samurai

This is big... Twitter bans political ads on its platform, worldwide. Now the pressure is on Facebook.

https://twitter.com/jack/status/1189634360472829952

Pretty sure that'll change after the 2020 US presidential campaign, Jack thinks the thick ones in flyover country are too stupid to decide what's good for them. The platform's reach is too small to be of any influence.

Facebook should simply take the money and allow the electorate to decide for themselves, like Zuckerberg wants it to be. They are in business and with the entire mainstream media supporting a single party against the elected president, it would be good to have a neutral platform. Greta thunberg has been complaining that Facebook allows opposing views, wonder where she got the idea that it should not be allowed.

[Samurai]

Whatsapp (owned by Facebook) officials have confirmed that their application is not really as secure as it led the users to believe.

Whenever you send messages to someone for the first time, whatsapp displays a message assuring that the communication uses end-to-end encryption. Oops, turns out it is not true.

I am a C++ programmer who frequently writes public-private key encryption code using openssl libraries, so I know the real meaning of end-to-end encryption. For me it is clear that whatsapp was not doing it correctly, for whatever business reasons.

[Samurai]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/all/lea...-help-n1076986

Taken together, they show how Zuckerberg, along with his board and management team, found ways to tap Facebook users' data — including information about friends, relationships and photos — as leverage over the companies it partnered with. In some cases, Facebook would reward partners by giving them preferential access to certain types of user data while denying the same access to rival companies.

For example, Facebook gave Amazon special access to user data because it was spending money on Facebook advertising. In another case the messaging app MessageMe was cut off from access to data because it had grown too popular and could compete with Facebook.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Facebook should simply take the money and allow the electorate to decide for themselves, like Zuckerberg wants it to be.

I have often seen this defense used for supporting facebook's nefarious activities. There is a difference between targeted advertisement and targeted misinformation campaign.

Facebook claims to be in targeted advertisement business, which is legal everywhere. They are selling access to behavior/likes/dislike/habits/demography data of you and your friends to anyone who is willing to pay for it. Now, you could say this is completely legal since every FB subscribers agreed to the EULA while signing up. I will grant you that.

Now comes the criminal part. Facebook allowed shady PR agencies to launch heavily targeted misinformation campaigns towards the user. Misinformation is bad even when not targeted, but targeted misinformation that is custom built to match the profile of each user is very dangerous. Misinformation campaigns are illegal in most countries. Yes, even in India, check section 66A of The IT Act (2000).

Facebook claims they are only providing a platform, and they are not responsible for the content of the advertisers. That argument doesn't fly because it tries to circumvent the misinformation laws of most countries. For example, newspapers and television channels are in advertising business too. They can be biased, that is allowed. But, they are not allowed to run misinformation campaigns. If they publish a false story, they can be sued and punitive fines can be imposed. No such thing is possible with FB advertisers since they could be hiding in some other country.

Let's take a brick and mortar example for comparison. A commercial building owner rents out office space to businesses. Let's say he rents out space to a drug dealer and a brothel. Both are illegal businesses in that country. Do you think the building owner can stay out of trouble claiming he only rents office space?

[srishiva]

The targetted misinformation problem in this case is not visible to anyone except the target. Even that disappears.

It doesnt give opportunity for the person against whom the ad was to refute. This is what is different compared to TV ads where I have seen people taking out ads against each other. So banning it would be the right way to do it.

Also, people are not in complete knowledge of how their data is being (mis)used or sold.