[sa_kiran]

Originally Posted by carbookie

This is exactly the kind of sentiment that starts the downfall of society.

Mob mentality is good in arguments, but shouldn't drive law and a country

Please explain how this sentiment starts the downfall of the society. What I'm saying is there is a provision in law to punish the offender, a horrible and unparalleled one. Mobs are holding candles and wasting and giving plenty of airtime to stupid news channels. None of them is working towards either the solution or punishment of offenders.

[carbookie]

Originally Posted by wanderer4x4

"Innocent until proven guilty" is fine for cases of trivial nature, not for cases like these where they have been identified by the victims and they themselves have confessed to the crime, more so to a ghastly barbaric crime.

I sincerely hope you are joking. Or lack even the basic understanding of our justice system. Either case I will repeat. Everybody in our law is innocent until proven guilty. Everyone has a right to legal representation. Even these so called animals are innocent untill proven guilty. Even these sol called animals have right to legal representation. Both of these are beingdenied to them right now. But I am hopeful, that government and judiciary will not be blind as a lynch mob.

Okay, so as per your logic we should not hang these rapists because many other rapists are moving scot free? I find this logic very convulated. Ofcourse, everyone of them deserve to hang, but many of them getting pardons by ineffective Presidents/ Goverments should not be construed as a precedent for every one getting pardons and leniency.

Strawman argument.

What then needs to be done as per you if we need not punish them? Place garlands and give them a world cup winning teams reception? (On a different note, our cricket team also does not deserve this anymore). Moreover, I don't think there is going to be kangaroo justice. (Though I sincerely hope for one, taliban style in this case).

Slippery slope argument.

Let me assure you, with our judiciary and legal process, these killers will be relatively comfortable goverment guests for sometime to come spending our (taxpayers) money. Kasab probably still remembered the tastes of Biryani and the warmth of his blankets, which he did not deserve, till he hung.

Comfortable guests? One of the under trial accused was beaten up and made to eat his own excreta in the jail he was lodged in. I guess lynch mentality is indeed common. I just want to say on these entire chain of events that law was shamed on 16th December and many times after that also.

The misuse of IPC 498A is there, but still I feel that strong laws and stronger implementation is required be it dowry or pickpocketing.

Talk to anyone with knowledge and power (high court judges, supreme court advocates), they will tell you that laws are not our problem. Not even in top 5.

On a different note, many of us are saying that the juvenile gets 3 years in jail. No, its 3 years in a juvenile correction centre undergoing "reformation counselling". And as per my knowledge these reform homes are actually those criminal producing factories which in effect will make a harder, harsher future criminal out of him. Duh! Why go for these fake reforms, just hang him and do away with it all.

Well here is something we agree on. Our prison system is a not less than a death penalty.

[dustom_99]

Originally Posted by msdivy

Seem like an offshoot of Godwin's Law - any issue is blamed on opening of economy in 1992. Lets not lose focus on the issue. Rape has been throughout Indian history. Its only now that people learn about the cases happening in other parts of the country. Note that to convict a rapist, the victim has to prove she is not a 'loose woman'. Hence the lawyer of the perpetrator constantly tries to malign the character of the victim. So a lot women don't report rape cases.

Unless charging rate of rape cases & conviction rate improves, this problem won't go away.

There is pretty high conviction rate for murder and robbery ,in US and most part of europe, i guess those guys are still loving there guns to the core despite that.

Anyway hanging someone is neither a solution nor close to it.
Justice is suppose to reform not deform .
I agree that higher conviction might reduce the crime which is still only a speculation as far as our society goes, but will it reform the people who commit? What is your magic potion for higher conviction rate? with over 3000+ cases going to court every day (+similar number not even going for justice).
Rape is just one of the problem, not the only one!

Moreover i dont know what sort of society demands taking life of another human! advocates for it.
We are humans no more,are we?

[wanderer4x4]

Originally Posted by carbookie

I sincerely hope you are joking. Or lack even the basic understanding of our justice system. Either case I will repeat. Everybody in our law is innocent until proven guilty. Everyone has a right to legal representation. Even these so called animals are innocent untill proven guilty. Even these sol called animals have right to legal representation. Both of these are beingdenied to them right now. But I am hopeful, that government and judiciary will not be blind as a lynch mob.

I don't claim to be an expert on our judicial system and neither do I need your repeating legal terminologies to understand. I never said that they do not have right to legal representation. You are talking exactly in the lines of a defence lawyer; while it may be legally right to call them "innocent", but humanity, empathy with the victim and overall common sense does not allow us to call them "innocent". Moreover, this is an open and shut case where there is enough proof of their guilt and am sure they will be convicted. You call whatever you want to call them, but majority India is still going to call them guilty.

[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by msdivy

Seem like an offshoot of Godwin's Law - any issue is blamed on opening of economy in 1992. Lets not lose focus on the issue. Rape has been throughout Indian history. Its only now that people learn about the cases happening in other parts of the country. Note that to convict a rapist, the victim has to prove she is not a 'loose woman'. Hence the lawyer of the perpetrator constantly tries to malign the character of the victim. So a lot women don't report rape cases.

Unless charging rate of rape cases & conviction rate improves, this problem won't go away.

Well according to this, http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ra...-lateststories , it seems like rape is a recent thing in "India". Honestly, where is the country headed with idiots like these .

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by carbookie

Talk to anyone with knowledge and power (high court judges, supreme court advocates), they will tell you that laws are not our problem. Not even in top 5.

This is our main problem. We abdicate our collective responsibility towards our fellow countrymen by being happy that the high court judges think the law covers everything and are not our problem. Remember the pledge in our school textbooks - All Indians are my brothers and sisters... This needs to be followed by all to be considered fair. Criminals have been getting away almost scot free due to such loop holes because they choose to exploit the 'fair trial' option. There is always someone shouting on their behalf regardless of their barbarism and inhumane nature.

Who are these high court judges? do they walk two inches higher in air than the rest of us? It is easy for those in power to sit in their highchairs and pronounce judgements. but they do not have to do go through life like this poor woman and her family had to. If our society is spawning monsters, it is time to deal with that.

And as a citizen, if you believe every thing that someone in power tells you, I think something is wrong somewhere. I do not wish this kind of torture on the worst of my enemies, but think of the barbarism and I can think of no mercy to such monsters.
I dont support what the undertrial went through, but the best way to avoid it would have been to stay away from crime. One would think?

Insensitivity is one thing, but this kind of blind support is appalling.

[dustom_99]

MSDIVY: Please do not destroy indian history! Rape has never been part of our history

Rape in such numbers everyday is surely a new thing.
May be
while we under british and moghul empire, rulers-there representative, people of high status,money lenders etc did stupid things like rape , i wonder what difference being free has made?

[carbookie]

Originally Posted by wanderer4x4

neither do I need your repeating legal terminologies to understand.

Thanks for clearing that up. Horse-Water-Drink. Can not do more

You are talking exactly in the lines of a defence lawyer; while it may be legally right to call them "innocent", but humanity, empathy with the victim and overall common sense does not allow us to call them "innocent".

“With all due respect, that’s a bunch of malarkey”
You don't need to victimize a alleged perpetrator to show empathy for a victim. I am sorry if you think this is a zero sum game.

Moreover, this is an open and shut case where there is enough proof of their guilt and am sure they will be convicted.

Say's who?
You? Media? That doesn't make it the truth.

You call whatever you want to call them, but majority India is still going to call them guilty.

Majority of India also breaks traffic rules. That doesn't make it right.
I don't believe in herd mentality. You have every right to.

Originally Posted by selfdrive

...If our society is spawning monsters, it is time to deal with that.

Correct. But it is not Judiciary's job to legislate. Judiciary interprets the law of the land and gives punishment. Legislature is a different pole of democracy.

I dont support what the undertrial went through, but the best way to avoid it would have been to stay away from crime. One would think?

And in case somebody does commits a crime, he will have to eat excreta? Why stop here? Lets rape the alleged perpetrators in jail, so that we get some sense of justice.

Insensitivity is one thing, but this kind of blind support is appalling.

What is this? George Bush era. "With us or against us".
If I don't support your viewpoint, I am insensitive and blindly supporting criminals?

[extreme_torque]

@carbookie - I am totally with you on this. While its hard to feel sympathy for these guys for what they have done, the law has to follow a course which has been written in the book if not in stone. We know they are guilty and its an open and shut case but it still needs to be proved in the court of law. Until that happens, they are innocent and bear with me when I say this, its not me who is calling them innocent, its the law.
On a hypothetical level, lets assume they are proven innocent, would you blame the law or the investigating agencies?

Emotions and anger are perfectly justifiable in this case but even if this case takes time because it has to follow the law only augurs well for our future and our future generations. Law were meant to serve a purpose, let them do it unless you can suggest something better than mob lynching, burning them alive or publicaly hanging them on India gate.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by carbookie

What is this? George Bush era. "With us or against us".
If I don't support your viewpoint, I am insensitive and blindly supporting criminals?

It really is the era that one makes of it. Like you have your opinion, so do I. But the point is not to survive and follow rules set in the British era. Things have changed and the law needs to change too. But who will do that? the people who will approve the legislature themselves have tons of cases pending against them. Which is why the general public wants to have vigilante justice so that it acts as a deterrent. The kind that other such budding criminals will shudder before doing the same. I am not supporting it, but stating what is happening.

The point everyone here is trying to make is twofold
- exemplary punishment for the perpetrators.
- stop asking for dignity or decent treatment for people who didnt give any in the first place. this itself will be treated as supporting the criminals (as a defence lawyer, as someone already said!)

I know you are not supporting the criminals, but asking for dignity for them is not something correct. Ethically or morally. Maybe correct politically and legally. But then that says a lot about how far these latter two words have gone from ethics and morals. Regardless of what people in power or those with knowledge (or both, assuming there is anyone of this breed) or high court judgs have to say about this.

In any case its not as if you and I discussing this will be considered in the judgement. So I stay with my opinion.

This may sound odd, but a request to all here. Please dont make the girl relive all her torture even in words. She went through a lot, let her rest in peace now.

My last post on this topic.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

It really is the era that one makes of it. Like you have your opinion, so do I. But the point is not to survive and follow rules set in the British era. Things have changed and the law needs to change too. But who will do that? the people who will approve the legislature themselves have tons of cases pending against them. Which is why the general public wants to have vigilante justice so that it acts as a deterrent. The kind that other such budding criminals will shudder before doing the same. I am not supporting it, but stating what is happening.

Vigilante justice or might is right? We have stories where mobs have lynched thieves for petty crimes... why don't or rather you can't do that to politicians? So whats the long term solution here, the law or mob justice which you try so hard to veil as vigilante justice?

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by carbookie

Say's who?
You? Media? That doesn't make it the truth.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

@carbookie - I am totally with you on this. While its hard to feel sympathy for these guys for what they have done, the law has to follow a course which has been written in the book if not in stone. We know they are guilty and its an open and shut case but it still needs to be proved in the court of law. Until that happens, they are innocent and bear with me when I say this, its not me who is calling them innocent, its the law.
On a hypothetical level, lets assume they are proven innocent, would you blame the law or the investigating agencies?

See below.

Originally Posted by wanderer4x4

Moreover, this is an open and shut case where there is enough proof of their guilt and am sure they will be convicted. You call whatever you want to call them, but majority India is still going to call them guilty.

Exactly.

There is something called a 'Dying Declaration'.

It is a legal document observed by the Laws Of Evidence wherein the person at the receiving end of the crime - right before his / her death (due to the crime) - has divulged and expressed the crime-scene either verbally or in writing.

In this case, Nirbhaya's statements recorded before her death can be treated as a 'Dying Declaration'.

Besides, there is sufficient circumstantial and substantive evidence to prove then guilty. Remember, benefit of doubt can be given only when the evidence is neither direct nor doubtful.

This can be termed as substantial evidence and conclusive proof that the crime had been committed.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Exactly.

There is something called a 'Dying Declaration'.

It is a legal document observed by the Laws Of Evidence wherein the person at the receiving end of the crime - right before his / her death (due to the crime) - has divulged and expressed the crime-scene either verbally or in writing.

Besides, there is sufficient circumstantial and substantive evidence to prove then guilty. Remember, benefit of doubt can be given only when the evidence is neither direct nor doubtful.

This can be termed as substantial evidence and conclusive proof that the crime had been committed.

What of the confessions the first 5 gave ?
Have they been refuted or discounted in some manner?

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by mayankk

What of the confessions the first 5 gave ?
Have they been refuted or discounted in some manner?

There are umpteen cases of the chaps recanting, claiming that they made the statements under Police pressure. So these can be additional at best.

[wanderer4x4]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

So whats the long term solution here, the law or mob justice which you try so hard to veil as vigilante justice?

Are we asking for mob justice? I don't think so. What everyone is asking for is that the killers must get the harshest possible punishment under the Indian laws based on the evidence of their crime. Does that make everyone demented, bloodthirsty creatures with a "herd mentality"? Did I or anyone else said that they be lynched or cut to pieces? No, the pertinent point is they deserve the harshest possible punishment under Indian laws and that is death by hanging. Now, thats my opinion and I stand by it.