[amitoj]

Originally Posted by joslicx

Are you suggesting rape is not a problem in western world? Are there no date rapes? ruflins or whatever it is called?

TOI published some stats and the country with highest number of reported rapes is Sweden with 92 cases per lakh (of population). that, for an incredibly safe society. france also ranks high in this list. the stat for India was 1.8 cases per lakh. even if we assume only 10% cases are reported in India, we still have less cases than sweden and france.

crime against women is there everywhere. its not a cultural thing.

Numbers comparing such crimes across countries are usually not of much value because there is no common definition and interpretation of a crime.

Read this article to understand the fallacy of your argument and see why Sweden "seems" to top the list:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19592372

I, for one, would never take anything published in TOI at its face value.

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by joslicx

Are you suggesting rape is not a problem in western world? Are there no date rapes? ruflins or whatever it is called?

TOI published some stats and the country with highest number of reported rapes is Sweden with 92 cases per lakh (of population). that, for an incredibly safe society. france also ranks high in this list. the stat for India was 1.8 cases per lakh. even if we assume only 10% cases are reported in India, we still have less cases than sweden and france.

crime against women is there everywhere. its not a cultural thing.

no, i am not saying that. but i am saying an 'average' citizen in western world is less likely to force himself on a women just because she is found alone in a street corner or a bus. if he is a criminal, he i more likely to grab her wallet, than her dignity, a more profitable transaction.

[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

no, i am not saying that. but i am saying an 'average' citizen in western world is less likely to force himself on a women just because she is found alone in a street corner or a bus. if he is a criminal, he i more likely to grab her wallet, than her dignity, a more profitable transaction.

In addition, I have never heard of a woman being violated with an Iron rod in western countries. Your earlier analysis was spot on and I totally agree with you. It goes back to what I was talking about; the culture clash. The problem is, will the old, backwards India ever change. Maybe if enforcement and laws were made stricter it would. The police are hopeless now and many of them deserve to be in jail right next to the criminals. I have no qualms about the protestors fighting back.

[joe1980]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

no, i am not saying that. but i am saying an 'average' citizen in western world is less likely to force himself on a women just because she is found alone in a street corner or a bus. if he is a criminal, he i more likely to grab her wallet, than her dignity, a more profitable transaction.

The very simple reason is that a law in most of the western world is a law and elsewhere it is a flaw!

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by jraj

Sir,may I very humbly ask you why you keep referring to Tahrir sqaure very often?.....

In India's context how is it equivalent?

Whilst the Delhi incident is vehemently condemned and my heart goes out to the victim,what is that we are trying to achieve through the protests happening now?Do we want to continue the protests until the 6 men are hanged?Do we want to continue the protest until the Parliament passes some stringent law against such crimes?Do we want to continue the protest until the Govt comes and meets us - which I think the Home minister did today.

The totally insensitive attitude of the Govt is what lead to Tahrir Square, earlier Indonesia (Sukarno) and Philippines (Marcos).

See the HMs statements yesterday. He equates the kids with Maoists (twice). The people have lost faith in the Govt. They want to push things under the carpet and do nothing. PMs (non) statement was exactly that. The cops stating Collateral Damage - Is it war and they are the army! The collateral damage is the poor cop - that is collateral damage and part of the risk of his job.

Let me ask a few questions. Why Sec.144 on and off on the 23rd? Why water canon and bussing early in the morning? Why pushing forward of the barricades in the late afternoon by the police? Why attack on the media?

Why water cannon at 6:00am on the 24th? Why banning Media, blocking an ambulance with a five year old sick kid? The (dis)information ministry asking channels not to show videos of the 23rd clashes.

Also, closing half of ND shows an emerging police state. Definitely not democracy.


And this is the sort of state response what led to Tahrir square?

[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

The totally insensitive attitude of the Govt is what lead to Tahrir Square, earlier Indonesia (Sukarno) and Philippines (Marcos).

See the HMs statements yesterday. He equates the kids with Maoists (twice). The people have lost faith in the Govt. They want to push things under the carpet and do nothing. PMs (non) statement was exactly that. The cops stating Collateral Damage - Is it war and they are the army! The collateral damage is the poor cop - that is collateral damage and part of the risk of his job.

Let me ask a few questions. Why Sec.144 on and off on the 23rd? Why water canon and bussing early in the morning? Why pushing forward of the barricades in the late afternoon by the police? Why attack on the media?

Why water cannon at 6:00am on the 24th? Why banning Media, blocking an ambulance with a five year old sick kid? The (dis)information ministry asking channels not to show videos of the 23rd clashes.

Also, closing half of ND shows an emerging police state. Definitely not democracy.


And this is the sort of state response what led to Tahrir square?

What doesn't make sense to me is that the government had a real chance to gain the trust of the people and improve the situation. Instead they do the opposite, further stoking the flames of anger. The fact that it took the PM so long to even make a statement is very telling.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by CaliAtenza

In addition, I have never heard of a woman being violated with an Iron rod in western countries. Your earlier analysis was spot on and I totally agree with you. It goes back to what I was talking about; the culture clash. The problem is, will the old, backwards India ever change. Maybe if enforcement and laws were made stricter it would. The police are hopeless now and many of them deserve to be in jail right next to the criminals. I have no qualms about the protestors fighting back.

You have not heard of it does not mean it does not happen. Before this particular case we'd not heard of anything like it in India too. You can try googling if such violent crimes are there in US (I'm sure you will be surprised)

Violence against women is there everywhere. Here are some facts about US:

Fact: One out of every five American women have been the victims of an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. (The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010)

Fact: 22 million women in the United States have been raped in their lifetime. 63.84% of women who reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked since age 18 were victimized by a current or former husband, cohabiting partner, boyfriend, or date. (National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010)

Fact: Every two minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted. (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network (RAINN) calculation based on 2000 National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice)

Fact: Factoring in unreported rapes, about 6% of rapists will ever spend a day in jail. 15 out of 16 will walk free. (Probability statistics based on US Department of Justice Statistics)

And many more such facts here:
http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html

Originally Posted by joe1980

The very simple reason is that a law in most of the western world is a law and elsewhere it is a flaw!

Just go thru the link above or google yourself. Violence against women is there everywhere. Please dont try to make it a east vs west thing. Its not a cultural thing.

Even in a seemingly highly policed/safe society like US the conviction rates for rapes are only 3% (yes only 3 out of 100 rapists ever get convicted and go to jail). This was told by a prominent columnist in a debate yesterday.

[sgiitk]

Things getting murkier.

Magistrate complaining of police interference / coaching.

Tomar (may his soul rest in peace) death the new clips with a lady comforthing him, cops vanishing, etc. The young man (student of Journalism)claiming that he has more pics to prove that the man just collapsed and also e has an audio recording. The DCP being challenged on the TV accepting that as of now they have no proof about the accused and are looking at the CCTV footage, which should show zilch. The PM can be easily manipulated. Sheila playing blatant politics.

Then an ambulance with a five year old being stopped and not allowed to proceed, and closing the nine metro stations on XMas all sound like a paranoid police state. In London even after the metro bombing the Tube except for the affected stations was back within a very short time.

[download2live]

All this when Govt has no corrupt officials to protect!!!!
I do not understand this attitude of the Govt. None of its Ministers are involved directly. Still this thing ballooned into such a big issue.
What does that tell me?
The Govt officials have accumulated enough moolah to last till 7th Generation.
And now are enjoying a nice sleep.
The country can Go to Hell.
Nothing is "Theek Hai".

2014 seems SO SO FAR AWAY.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by download2live

Nothing is "Theek Hai".

I was having a lunch yesterday, and many of the bigger industrialists of Kanpur were present. The unanimous view was that on Day 1 Pranab should have called a few representatives of the children and reassured them. The agitation would have been ended there itself.

Of course the Mai Baap Sarkar cannot do that. Incidentally, PM in my last post stood for Post Mortem and not MMSingh.

[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by joslicx

You have not heard of it does not mean it does not happen. Before this particular case we'd not heard of anything like it in India too. You can try googling if such violent crimes are there in US (I'm sure you will be surprised)

Violence against women is there everywhere. Here are some facts about US:

Fact: One out of every five American women have been the victims of an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. (The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010)

Fact: 22 million women in the United States have been raped in their lifetime. 63.84% of women who reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked since age 18 were victimized by a current or former husband, cohabiting partner, boyfriend, or date. (National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010)

Fact: Every two minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted. (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network (RAINN) calculation based on 2000 National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice)

Fact: Factoring in unreported rapes, about 6% of rapists will ever spend a day in jail. 15 out of 16 will walk free. (Probability statistics based on US Department of Justice Statistics)

And many more such facts here:
http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html



Just go thru the link above or google yourself. Violence against women is there everywhere. Please dont try to make it a east vs west thing. Its not a cultural thing.

Even in a seemingly highly policed/safe society like US the conviction rates for rapes are only 3% (yes only 3 out of 100 rapists ever get convicted and go to jail). This was told by a prominent columnist in a debate yesterday.

Oh I'm not doubting that crime against women exists here as well, and no I am not surprised at all. Amitoj discussed about how the reporting of rape or what constitutes rape can change reporting of statistics. This Wikipedia article,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States, covers things pretty good. The thing is, it is a cultural thing the minute anyone tells a woman what to wear or what not to wear, and if someone tells a woman that she isn't free to go out at night or past a certain time. Many politicians in India have said just that. Now how would you feel if someone told your wife, or sister, or mother, what they can or cannot do?

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by CaliAtenza

Oh I'm not doubting that crime against women exists here as well, and no I am not surprised at all. Amitoj discussed about how the reporting of rape or what constitutes rape can change reporting of statistics. This Wikipedia article,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States, covers things pretty good. The thing is, it is a cultural thing the minute anyone tells a woman what to wear or what not to wear, and if someone tells a woman that she isn't free to go out at night or past a certain time. Many politicians in India have said just that. Now how would you feel if someone told your wife, or sister, or mother, what they can or cannot do?

Oh absolutely agree with you on this. Nobody has any business telling women what they ought to do and not to do.

My only reservation was against the insinuation that there is a law in western world and these crimes are not there. But it is not the case. A rape is a rape and the basic definition is same everywhere. There are millions of cases in US and conviction rate is pathetic at just 3%. So 97 out of 100 women who alleged rape there got no justice! Thats shocking as well. It tells you that nothings gonna stop crimes against women as maybe that is one basic nature of men everywhere.

But I guess women still shouldnt lose hope in their fight in asserting their rights as that is most important. This case should not become another excuse to even go further in an imaginary protective shell (protection of home/parents etc). No such shell really exists. And its not just a fight with society's mindset. It is very much a fight with their ownselfs as well, for sometimes they will need to defy the very people they love like husbands or parents/brothers etc.

[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by joslicx

Oh absolutely agree with you on this. Nobody has any business telling women what they ought to do and not to do.

My only reservation was against the insinuation that there is a law in western world and these crimes are not there. But it is not the case. A rape is a rape and the basic definition is same everywhere. There are millions of cases in US and conviction rate is pathetic at just 3%. So 97 out of 100 women who alleged rape there got no justice! Thats shocking as well. It tells you that nothings gonna stop crimes against women as maybe that is one basic nature of men everywhere.

But I guess women still shouldnt lose hope in their fight in asserting their rights as that is most important. This case should not become another excuse to even go further in an imaginary protective shell (protection of home/parents etc). No such shell really exists. And its not just a fight with society's mindset. It is very much a fight with their ownselfs as well, for sometimes they will need to defy the very people they love like husbands or parents/brothers etc.

Actually if you read the wiki article, it says conviction rates are at 25%. Also here, underage sex, even if it's consensual, is defined as rape. Actually no, not millions of cases. In 2008, it was approximately 90,000. In fact, the reported victimization rate has gone down considerably since the 1980s. What I want to talk about is the fact that so many politicians in India have repeatedly told women what they can and cannot do; even the women in power have said that!!

[mannubhai]

Originally Posted by Saanil

But after many such debates no one could reach a conclusion. Also you rightly said - death penalty for murdering has not stopped murders - what is the guarantee this such a thing will not happen in a rape case.

.

Its a wrong assumption we are taking. Comparing murder to rape is also wrong.

If our laws gave only 2-3 years imprisonment for a murder, do you think there would be more murders ? I think so, because the scare/fear factor is what stops a huge number of crimes from happening.

Rape gets a mediocre sentence, that too if the girl can prove the rape. Critical of which is a medical examination that should be done within certain hours of the crime being committed. Then she has to record is bit-to-bit details into an FIR. She has to then identify her molesters.Then after few months/years, she has to stand in a court in front of preying eyes and ears, and answer the lawyers questions, explaining the series of events that happened. Also she needs to prove she is not "character"less. After she going through all this physical/mental/psychological trauma, the criminals gets couple of years in jail, and they come back to haunt her.

How many girls would stand this torture that the system puts them through ? No wonder just a small portion of rapes ever gets reported.

[Jignesh]

Originally Posted by mannubhai

How many girls would stand this torture that the system puts them through ? No wonder just a small portion of rapes ever gets reported.

Hello Manoj,

Very well said. We have all seen this happening in movies & the bitter fact remains that this is very much true in India. Maximum penalty a rapist gets is 7 years Imprisonment.

The classic is of Aruna Shanbaug case, where is victim is still under comma since last 37 years, while the rapist (Sohanlal Bhartha Walmiki) served 7 years prison sentence & is currently a free citizen working in some hospital in Delhi.

Thanks,