[Samurai]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

I was very physically active since childhood days, started gym when I was 17 and I'm on my 15th year in my gym now and I'm pretty consistent.

I started at 15 and now I am 48, and I fully agree with your points. I too have never taken supplements. Recently at a car review event, the fellow reviewer dZired guessed my age to be 36.

[mandheers]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

I was very physically active since childhood days, started gym when I was 17 and I'm on my 15th year in my gym now and I'm pretty consistent. I was around 60kg when I started and right now weigh around 100kg and stand at 6'2". Not a pinch of supplement so far. And I can do some serious weights and can still increase my weight if I want to. I used to deep squat 225kg till a couple of years back.

225 kilograms is big-ass weight, almost 495 lbs. Have you competed in any lifts? Any video or photos of your Squats?

I have squatted 5 plates each side, 495 lbs and I know how that feels on the way up. Currently settled at 170 kgs on Squats for a double.

As regards supplements I will say they have their place, if you are doing more than normal activities, you have to supplement your diet - either with more food or with more dietary supplements.

[pramodkumar]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

Not a pinch of supplement so far. .

Why, what is wrong with supplements? My problem with your statement is supplementation made into a taboo subject. Are People who take supplements bad people and those who don't hard workers? To me this is again bro science.

Now let me ask you one question, I am asking you this because I could not get this from your current post and I am too lazy to go through what you might have said couple of pages back. I am also taking into consideration that you do consult your sister. Now its no rocket science that your body needs carbs and proteins to replenish energy and build more muscles, will you fulfil all this from your diet alone?

Supplements are not meal replacements and I have never believed in that concept, but they do make the body conducive for building muscles by extending the anabolic window. People take supplements for a reason. I cannot even imagine whole of my nutrients coming from my diet alone, an egg for example provides 2-3 grams of protein so it would take me 10-12 eggs to bring the same effect as a scoop of whey protein, I hope I made my point.

Pramod

[fine69]

Guys, the problem isn't the use of supplement, it is the expected result.

Let me share an instance. Most Saturdays 3 couples (including me and my wife) meet up to spend the evening together.

This was around 8-9 months back when I went to one of my friend's place and since we'd met after a relatively long period he immediately complimented me on my improved physique, bigger arms and a wide chest (which is actually a wide back).

While coming back my wife told me that when I'd stepped away for a minute my friends continued to talk about how I look much better and one of them mentioned that I must be taking whey protein. The other guy nodded in agreement.

THIS is precisely why the word supplement has been made controversial. Most of the newbies in gym and people who don't go to the gym think that Whey Protein is a magical potion and if you eat it you will grow muscles.

A lot of people frown over the slightest mention of supplement simply because the guy who mentions it is looking at achieving a certain result with that supplement which the "supplement-haters" know wouldn't happen.

When I see someone who wants to eat 180 grams of protein everyday or wants to gulp protein shakes everyday I don't tell him to stop doing it. Instead, I ask him what he wishes to achieve with that. Mostly the answer is that he wishes to look like Arnold, which isn't going to happen so then I smile and just go back to minding my own business.

If you aren't willing to do a cycle please stop wasting your time and money on these supplements because the only difference these supplements create would be an inch or half inch in your arm/torso/leg. If you think this extra inch with, lets say water retention, makes you look like an international male model then please continue by all means but if you are looking at gaining 3-4 inches (or more) beyond your natural peak then that's where steroids come in and these supplements become useless.

So, if you wish to look a better version of yourself, you don't need anything, just workout and eat the regular homemade food and you'd be alright. However, if you do wish to look like Arnold then all the supplements together can't make the kind of difference one cycle would.

I personally don't take any supplements simply because that half or one inch isn't going to make me look significantly different and the extra 5 kg on the barbell doesn't give me any ego boost either.

[ReluctantRebel]

completely agree with what fine69 says about supplements. it doesn't matter how many grams of protein you take if there is not enough testosterone produced in one's body to synthesize it. And someone above 30, with a stressed life, testosterone levels are going to be in the bottom range. don't trust me, then go take a test.

@pramod, agreed that supplements give u 25grams of protein while eggs provide around 5 grams. But eggs also help produce testosterone to synthesize that protein, if eaten whole. a supplement doesn't provide that.

@fine69, I understand, mostly from your past posts, that you are trying to make people realize that our body needs that extra testosterone to make it use all the extra protein. but when I read the post the first time, it sounded more like endorsing the use of steroids. of course, I know you really don't intend​ that, but adding a disclaimer might help

[pramodkumar]

Originally Posted by ReluctantRebel

@pramod, agreed that supplements give u 25grams of protein while eggs provide around 5 grams. But eggs also help produce testosterone to synthesize that protein, if eaten whole. a supplement doesn't provide that.

Your understanding is not accurate, there is something called HPT axis and there is a feedback mechanism, I am not going to get into the details but you can give it a thorough read if you are interested in the topic. Eggs as such don't improve testosterone production. When we say egg in bodybuilding terms its usually egg whites, they have nothing else but protein. What aids the production of testosterone is cholesterol, which is primarily there in egg yolk, but a high level of cholesterol could also mean other complications.

@ fine69

I couldn't agree more, what you said about the mindset is absolutely correct. Going the cycle route is highly debatable, I have seen people who have not run a single cycle and have a great physique. The problem with todays kids is they start taking roids the day they join gym, the first and easiest cycle to get hooked to is the DBOL cycle, perhaps that's where your reference of water weight is coming from, there are a lot other cycles which builds nothing but Raw muscles. I am against a 18 year old going this route, but if its a 40 year old, I would really not judge that person because of the biological issues in his body in terms of amount of test produced naturally.

Regarding body builders not using supplements is again a myth, all know their body is not built using supplements alone, however the amount of food a body builder would have to eat is going to be crazy if they don't get proper supplements in place. There is a much greater place for site enhancing oils like synthol in competitive body building, especially at the national and international stages.

Let me tell you, there is an issue in comprehension when we say supplements don't work and steroids do, the important term is "as good as"

As far as the Arnold dream goes, every boy who hits the gym for the first time has that dream, in a year or two down that road he realises that its not as easy as he thinks. There are Indian body builders who are at better conditioning than Arnold ever was, so there are Indian boys who have beaten him

pramod

[srishiva]

From my personal experience, I have been eating the same amount of protein for some time now (not through supplements, grains, pulses, eggs) However, I am adding good muscle with good definition. I owe it to my proper way of doing my weights. I am extra careful on the posture and you can feel it as you are doing it.
Coming to supplements, you need to eat properly. If you are not, then you need supplements. A person eating right might think supplements are a waste. But the one eating it might find it not true.

[ReluctantRebel]

@pramod. thanks for explaining that. it's exactly what I meant. i never implied that eating eggs would boost testosterone production. It is to show the role that wholesome foods play in our diet and general health.
my point being, depending on supplements alone isn't going to help in muscle gain. wholesome foods should constitute 90% of one's diet, if the target is to build muscles. supplements are just that, supplements. and no amount of extra protein will help if your body doesn't produce enough testosterone.

[ach1lles]

Let me try this delicately.

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

I was very physically active since childhood days, started gym when I was 17 and I'm on my 15th year in my gym now and I'm pretty consistent. I was around 60kg when I started and right now weigh around 100kg and stand at 6'2". Not a pinch of supplement so far. And I can do some serious weights and can still increase my weight if I want to. I used to deep squat 225kg till a couple of years back.

That's pretty great, and I love that you've mentioned squats as your measure of progress. 225 kgs is serious weight no matter who you are. Thumbs up for that.

Now, why do you, and many people here and elsewhere see not having used a "pinch of supplement" as something to be proud of?

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

since there are hardly any scientific facts on health and human body

There are many empirical areas where we do understand various things based on just evidence, but there is enough of hard science available for us to understand and develop, optimise, correct, and more importantly make sense of the available evidence.

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

as there are innumerable factors(that impacts) such as genetics, diet practices, individual metabolism, etc that varies across races.

And yet, when it comes to treating diseases, illnesses, ailments and pathologies, humans are taken as a whole, and are not divided by genetics, diet practices, individual metabolism, or even races.

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

When asked for suggestions, I always maintain:

1. You are your best tutor.

2. Only you know how your body is reacting and responding.

3. No two bodies are the same. Even your body is not the same everyday. It is ageing everyday.

4. There is no one size-fit-all workout regimes and diet regimes.

5. In most cases, the best person to give advice is the one who has already achieved the target you are aiming for.

Why is it only with exercise sciences that people always maintain all of the above? That you, your experience, your body, your habits are the only things that matter? Even for something as rudimentary as dancing, which is basically moving your musculoskeletal system in a rhythm and in sync with external audio input (I made it sound weird, didn't I?), regular people have no problems with a professional instructor but when it comes to the gym, building your body etc, people like you prefer to having figured stuff out on their own, with no professional experience, studies, or qualifications? The fact is probably you, and many more like you struggle with your time in the gym early on, and the few of you who like it enough to stick with it for long figure stuff out in years what a professional could've taken care of for you in hours. Many, many quit soon and never make it to 7 years of "figuring yourself out". This is the absolute worst advice you could give to any beginner.

Just like with any other field, there are qualified professionals that can and will help you with your quest of a healthy, fit, or competitive lifestyle, and save you a lot of time, injuries, confusion and frustrations.

This whole thing of "I know what works for me, I've figured it out" is bro-science at its core.

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

I'm a proponent of not just physical well being but also mental well being. Highly strenuous workouts can cause severe mood swings due to electrolytes drain and other factors, but nobody talks about it. Is that what you want? Nobody talks about the impact it has on the rest of your day and how you react with people.

Correct, which is why a professional can develop a suitable program for you, and help you with coping with the negative effects of strenuous physical activities. A professional can articulate a progressive program that doesn't overwhelm you, and if it does, corrections can be made swiftly.

Though if avoiding 'strenuous workouts' was the only way to mental wellbeing, we won't have professional sports.

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

And regards to supplement, I suggest resort to it only after a genuine attempt at natural bodybuilding.

In what world, and in what way are supplements "unnatural"? Or, more precisely, what do you define as "natural bodybuilding"?

Please be apprised that there are many negative effects of lifting weights, including high inflammation, oxidative stress, and mineral deficiencies. Supplements are needed to counter these and support long term lifting and look at health and overall fitness as a long term practice, something that you've mentioned in the first point below. A person who lifts weights has different nutritive requirements that many times can't be coped with regular food alone.

Since you've mentioned electrolytes earlier, what do you consume to replenish them? Gatorade? Coconut water? something else? Whatever that is, which is consumed for this purpose, is a supplement.

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

Reasons -

1. It doesn't make you look at health and well-being as a long term practice. Good quality supplements are expensive and could be unsustainable for many. And over a period, the cost can even become a de-motivator for hitting the gym.

2. Off supplements and off goes all the muscles.

3. Nobody knows what exactly goes into it, not even in the good ones. Do not fall for FDA approved and the likes. What are the tests they do and what is the sample size, the age, race, etc., what is the long term impact, of the people involved

3. To me, it's like a psychological short cut and it can really play with your consistency in gym. As I told you, I suggest health and well-being on long term basis and not on instant gratification.

If you are resorting to supplements, I would suggest have a re-look at what exactly you want and have a long term plan for health and fitness that is sustainable and enjoyable.

I truly think, based on your post here, its intention not withstanding, you don't know what you are talking about.

Now, let me just pre-empt a statement that you will probably make, or think of, because I get this regularly: "Yeah, but I've been doing this for 15 years and I've never needed any supplements, and look at me..".

No, you don't know what you've needed. As an example, smoker who doesn't get cancer after smoking for 15 years can't, and shouldn't say that they've been smoking for 15 years and they're fine, so everyone should try smoking, see how their body responds, and take a call.

Good quality supplements are expensive and could be unsustainable for many. And over a period, the cost can even become a de-motivator for hitting the gym.

That's for the person who is going to spend to decide. How is cost a point here anyway? Isn't that the most subjective thing? Fuel is costly, doesn't mean people don't put it in their car to drive when they need to.

Off supplements and off goes all the muscles

Erm, no. The human body prefers a basal level, which is defined by your genetic makeup. If you stop providing stimulus to grow or maintain the growth, your body would prefer to return to its basal system, offing your hard earned muscle in the process. This is why when your limb is in a cast for sometime, you see muscle wastage and everything going limp. The stimulus for growth is your action, not the supplements.
Inadvertently though, this (quoted) statement shows that you think taking supplements can help with muscle growth, and that they are solely responsible for "muscles". Let me just ask here, what exactly do you think supplements are? How do you classify them?

Nobody knows what exactly goes into it, not even in the good ones. Do not fall for FDA approved and the likes. What are the tests they do and what is the sample size, the age, race, etc., what is the long term impact, of the people involved

Now this is straight up paranoia and conspiracy theory stuff. Do you have these thoughts when you've bought soaps, shampoos, confectionaries, instant noodles, eaten out, roadside, consumed alcohol, had bottled water, purified water from home, etc. Where does it end? I haven't even mentioned medicines here.

[mandheers]

Originally Posted by ach1lles

Let me try this delicately.

That was delicate yes, 200% in agreement with everything, delicately.

Originally Posted by fine69

Guys, the problem isn't the use of supplement, it is the expected result.

If you aren't willing to do a cycle please stop wasting your time and money on these supplements because...

Here we go again!

Cycles help, like magic; more often than not; yes, but then again - we will open the Pandora's box around them. I know more than a few people who don't even invest a proper pct, and I know even more who run too many substances simultaneously.

And, wait for it; I also know a handful who are on a cycle every now and then and still look like shit, also lift like shit! Sadly.


Moving away:- I have said it here earlier and will say again, anyone giving credible advice here should also attach a photograph of themselves - flexed/relaxed whatever works; and what they credibly lift. It attaches some proof to the pudding.

As for supplements, they work if you have a good foundation, lift big enough, know what you need, how to time and to use them, and most importantly - know their place. But the bottom line is:- They are to supplement one's diet, they are a must and they work. If you are supplementing normal day to day activity with additional (read brutal) activities, then you need to supplement, period!

Me for example, I avoid any and all fat burners; I have always been around 100 kgs (12-14% BF), and I don't wish to lose/shed etc. I invest consistently in protein supplements, Whey, Casein, Blends, Bars. That's what works for me!

Protein apart, I regularly supplement with Vitamin C, D3, E, Calcium, Omega 3 and an occasional multivitamin.

I'm 38 now, current lifts, all doubles 2 rep sets i.e.:-

Deadlift - 185 kgs
Squat - 170 kgs
OHP - 80 kgs
Bench - 100 kgs (still missing a right tricep long head )
Cardio - Zero

[bblost]

Originally Posted by mandheers

1 have always been around 100 kgs (12-14% BF), and I don't wish to lose/shed etc.

Your picture makes it look like you are lying.

Deadlift - 185 kgs
Squat - 170 kgs
OHP - 80 kgs
Bench - 100 kgs (still missing a right tricep long head )
Cardio - Zero

Those are really good number.

Slightly off topic but does that weight include the weight of the bar?
Even if it does, its a very good weight you are lifting.

[Rehaan]

This video has come highly recommended, so sharing it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoP6NCGb3oM

[mandheers]

Originally Posted by bblost

Your picture makes it look like you are lying.

I will take that as a compliment, I was also posting a 'topless' photo but avoided. I used to be a skinny kid back in school days but fairly strong, have added whatever I have through weight training and supplementation, and no Trainers or Personal Trainers so far.

Originally Posted by bblost

Those are really good number.

Slightly off topic but does that weight include the weight of the bar?
Even if it does, its a very good weight you are lifting.

Yes, all weight includes a standard 20 kgs Barbell. Haven't tried maxing out on single reps, sticking to doubles I find is less taxing and much better overall for recovery + good strength gains.

[fine69]

Originally Posted by ReluctantRebel

but when I read the post the first time, it sounded more like endorsing the use of steroids. of course, I know you really don't intend​ that, but adding a disclaimer might help

Let me clarify. I meant that if someone is looking for an Arnie kind of physique then that just won't happen for 99 out of 100 guys without steroids. If you are one of those 99 and still want that kind of body then please don't waste time with supplements.

Originally Posted by mandheers

Moving away:- I have said it here earlier and will say again, anyone giving credible advice here should also attach a photograph of themselves - flexed/relaxed whatever works; and what they credibly lift. It attaches some proof to the pudding.

I have a video of deadlifting 80 kgs last week after few months of almost no workout, does that mean anything.

You've been lifting for more than a decade now (respect!) and I do wish to beat your stats in the next 3 years <insert hot emoji> but we both know that the newbies gulping supplements don't want your kind of body, they want to look like Hrithik/Ranveer instead.

You are an inspiration to someone like me because I know what a decade worth of lifting would do for your body (aesthetics aside) but the problem is that newbies want to look like Hrithik by the end of next semester. They don't care whether they deadlift/squat 100 kgs or 300 kgs, aesthetics are the only important thing.

Haven't we heard enough of "wish to gain lean muscle mass". In fact one of my first posts on this thread was, "need to gain lean muscle mass" and what I meant was, "need to look >= Hrithik".

Let me share my story briefly if its worth anything. I started drinking (moderate to heavy) at the age of 19 (my first job). I spent the next 9-10 years doing the same thing. I started on the fitness journey when I was 28-29. I did a lot of cardio, swimming and injured myself badly doing the Insanity workout. I took to weight training around 2 years back and injured myself enough to tell you that I've lifted for a period of just 8-10 months in total.

Too long breaks, too many breaks, too many major injuries (Complete & Partial Meniscus tear in both knees, Partial ACL tear in one knee, Fluid retention in left ankle, some muscle tear in right shoulder, calf muscle tear in right leg, hip piriformis, anal fissure and few other minor ones) may not allow much credibility when it comes to stats but my learning has been immense. I posted even about having hemorrhoid with hardly 20 kgs dumbbells, beat that!

I wanted quick results in too short a time which led to most of the injuries.

My bodyweight is 72 kgs and I got back to weight training after a few months now and went back to -
ATG Squat (5x5) - 80 kgs
Deadlift (5x1) - 80 kgs
Overhead Press (5x5) - 40 kgs
Bench (5x5) - 55kgs

Both deadlift & squat are down from 100 kgs, I think I can get back to 100 kgs in about 3-4 months now.

For an overall weight training period of less than one year I don't think its too bad.

I will take a video when I squat/deadlift 100 kgs to share with you all.

I had gotten less serious about weight training for a while given the no. of injuries (its just too frustrating) but as I type this I think its time to get back in the game. As such I've got to beat Mandheer's stats in the next 36 months!!

[bblost]

Originally Posted by mandheers

I will take that as a compliment

Yes it is.

Originally Posted by fine69

Let me clarify. I meant that if someone is looking for an Arnie kind of physique then that just won't happen for 99 out of 100 guys without steroids. If you are one of those 99 and still want that kind of body then please don't waste time with supplements.

While Arnold Schwarzenegger's son has his face, the body is so vastly(pun intended) different.

You are an inspiration to someone like me because I know what a decade worth of lifting would do for your body (aesthetics aside) but the problem is that newbies want to look like Hrithik by the end of next semester. They don't care whether they deadlift/squat 100 kgs or 300 kgs, aesthetics are the only important thing.

Exactly. Most newbies want the over glamorized movie star body and they want it now.
I am sure that it was them that CliffHanger's post was talking about.

As such I've got to beat Mandheer's stats in the next 36 months!!