[Sha09mel]

Originally Posted by pdma

I second this point , I never understood why we should go through additional frisking , in fact i was made to remove my shoes and socks as well in Amsterdam for checking before boarding a flight.This is embarrassing for sure when you get this unwanted attention for no reason , specially after the X-ray scan which did not show any red spots.

My friend, I have just returned from my Scandinavian business trip and I have seen other European tourists who were asked to take off their shoes and socks for an additional scan. So do these people feel they are being harassed? I don't think so. Understand its the duty of airport security and customs and we should be co-operating. So don't take it personal or feel that you are being targeted.

Btw, never was I even asked once to take the additional scan or was frisked on any airport while city hopping.

[Chetan_Rao]

Though the existence of profiling and mistreatment can't be denied, additional/random frisking shouldn't automatically be clubbed in the same group.

I recently had a business trip to the US (Boston via London Heathrow, return the same way), and wasn't singled out for additional checks even once, while I saw plenty of 'whites' singled out for extra checks. The TSA didn't even put me through the body-scanner at Boston Logan Airport, and the TSA agent politely told me it wasn't required when I gave him a puzzled look. Nobody in the queue ahead of or behind me made a fuss about the extra checks.

I agree with other posters here that behaving yourself goes a long way. Obnoxious behavior shouldn't be an excuse for profiling or racist treatment, but we as a nation do need to learn to behave better. We create a lot of nuisance wherever we go, then love blaming everyone else when we get treated badly.

[rejoycjohn]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Unfortunately with the redistribution of the wealth, now almost every madasamy, manu, manjula and mohammed can fly anywhere he or she wants. They bring their poor behaviour standards, lack of education, lack of common courtesy etc with them.
You can take the man out of the village, but never the village out of the man! It is quite possible to have the headman of a Khap panchayat sitting next to you on an aircraft. Such has been the outcome of this sudden 'egalitarianism'. From nothing to everything in no time at all!

It is perfectly horrid on any flight, whether domestic or international or even on a train, when the passengers all start picking up their fat ugly suitcases, jostle everyone else and start moving in a wave towards the door. Normal common sense and common courtesy means that you allow those seated nearer the exit to leave first and thereby make it easy for everyone. A horrible trait we have is to go yak yak yak on the filthy mobiles till the very last minute and then again switch it on the moment one reaches the ground and start going yak yak yak again! Add to this, the obnoxious ringer tones that you have nowadays, right from third rate bollywollynonsense songs, to horrible ringtones and singtones and one has to live one's life amidst a cacaphony of ugly sounds made by miserable loutish people.
Wow! This country needs many more lessons in civilization indeed!

I agree with many things that you mentioned in your post that cause inconvenience to other travelers on the flight.
But then your take on the reasons for such inconvenience raised some questions in me.

Its true that redistribution of wealth have made many of those from the remotest villages of our country get a chance to fly out to meet their dear ones abroad. I think this is not unfortunate, but a fortunate thing, may be a path towards improving the economic conditions of many families in our country. Its not that they just got lucky and they are flying abroad, they struggled and invested everything to their kid's education, their children worked hard and got a job abroad and now its time for these senior citizens to visit these " developed " countries and have a good time with their loved ones.

I have traveled quite a lot since I passed out of my college and I have never seen any " madasamy, manu, manjula and mohammed from Village " behaving rudely or inappropriately with the authorities / staff or fellow passengers. Most of these first time travelers get really worried until they reach their destination. They get confused when they have to do a transit. The language barrier doesn't help either. They are too shy or scared to ask for help, they feel completely out of place and that the modern world is laughing at them, at their age and at all the hard work that they did to create this modern world.
Couple of times in Dubai / Paris / Doha, I had the opportunity to take a couple of elderly passengers to their respective transfer gates during my journeys. I think as a young man its my responsibility to help those from the previous generation who paved the path for us to have this modern luxury

So its not the people from village or redistribution of wealth or sudden egalitarianism is creating the problem, Infact coming from a village / city or from a poor / rich family does not have anything to do with a person's behavior whatsoever. From my experience I can say that the one's that cause issue in the airport / security gate or in the flight are those who are educated and think that flying should be restricted to a "elite " few. The words "accommodating , compassionate " etc are not even in their dictionary. They take it personally when a security officer asks them to remove their belt and shoes, they shout at the flight crew when the crew member politely informs them that the beverage of their choice is over. Its an irony that we Indians complain about foreigners being racist with us, but at the same time cannot even tolerate a poor family from village traveling in the same flight!!

So yes Lessions on how to be civilized is required. The question is who all should take it.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by rejoycjohn

I agree with many things that you mentioned in your post that cause inconvenience to other travelers on the flight.
But then your take on the reasons for such inconvenience raised some questions in me.
...
...

Rejoy, excellent post. I completely agree with each and every points you have mentioned there. At the same time Shankar got a point there, but it’s not limited to uneducated, or village folks. Infact, from my experience of international flights in and out of India, lack of common courtesy is more evident with the educated folks. Some airlines (like the one discussed here) may have consistently showed behavioral problems against certain races or population, but many at times the complaints around racism are inflicted by our own behavior.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by rejoycjohn

I have traveled quite a lot since I passed out of my college and I have never seen any " madasamy, manu, manjula and mohammed from Village " behaving rudely or inappropriately with the authorities / staff or fellow passengers. Most of these first time travelers get really worried until they reach their destination. They get confused when they have to do a transit. The language barrier doesn't help either. They are too shy or scared to ask for help, they feel completely out of place and that the modern world is laughing at them, at their age and at all the hard work that they did to create this modern world.

So yes Lessions on how to be civilized is required. The question is who all should take it.

You are completely mixing two things:
a. First time travelers' behavior (esp older generation, our parents).
b. General lack of etiquette that Shankar is referring to.

I once had the misfortune of traveling IX622 - Chennai to KL via Air India Express and back. Not something I have good memories of. Forget switching on your phone and talking loudly - junta actually took their bags out and ran to the front to queue to exit, even within a moving aircraft. Surreal!! I'm not even getting into the mess at check-in where junta got all sorts of extra luggage, disallowed carry-on luggage and were simply clueless.

While around 80% of the passengers fit bucket (a) - there were the obnoxious 20% that fit bucket (b). Shankar is talking about (b).

Then there are those intermediate cases like our undisciplined children - like an Aug 2010 flight to Moscow where while waiting for customs clearance, a 6-7 year old (not a 2 year old mind you) raised an unholy ruckus over milk while his hapless Punjabi mother kept pleading and offering him water/chocolate. She was traveling with the kid, first time out of the country, to venice to meet her husband - she couldn't even read english or speak proper hindi for that matter, she didn't have any forex either. There's failure here at so many levels - while I went and helped her out, exchanging rupees for USD, and buying the milk she required, it is at some level about individual responsibility, and being prepared. Being courteous and helpful is good, but we should recognize personal failures as well - this was not some 70 year old of our parents generation. My 68 year old mother insists on keeping forex on HER person, even when traveling with us.

I travel every week and I see similar stories repeat. Nothing new actually.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Unfortunately with the redistribution of the wealth, now almost every madasamy, manu, manjula and mohammed can fly anywhere he or she wants. They bring their poor behaviour standards, lack of education, lack of common courtesy etc with them.
You can take the man out of the village, but never the village out of the man! It is quite possible to have the headman of a Khap panchayat sitting next to you on an aircraft. Such has been the outcome of this sudden 'egalitarianism'. From nothing to everything in no time at all!

Really?! This is as racist as it gets, except you are also an Indian talking about Indians! So we will have to settle for a mere "elitist"!

Well, I suppose you can avoid them if you fly first class! It will not help in a train, though!

We encounter similar folks everywhere, so what makes an aircraft special? It will take another generation for things to settle down! I do agree this sort of behaviour invokes certain reactions from westerners, which may be perceived as racist.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Sha09mel

My friend, I have just returned from my Scandinavian business trip and I have seen other European tourists who were asked to take off their shoes and socks for an additional scan. So do these people feel they are being harassed? I don't think so. Understand its the duty of airport security and customs and we should be co-operating. So don't take it personal or feel that you are being targeted.

Btw, never was I even asked once to take the additional scan or was frisked on any airport while city hopping.

I travel internationally a lot. All over Europe and the USA. I'm a 1.93m, 54 year old, very caucasian looking male and carry a Dutch passport. Every year at least once or twice, I find myself the subject of extra security checks on my person, my hand lugage or my paperwork. Both in Europe as well as in the USA.

The most recent one, a few months ago when I flew Delhi, Amsterdam, Stockholm. At Amsterdam you have to go through immigration and a security check as you move from the international part of Amsterdam airport to the Schengen part. Every single item in my handlugage got taken out and inspected by my fellow countrymen.

I always ask for the reason of being singled out, answer is always the same; random selection sir.

Many, many years ago, I flew into Miami from Venezuela. I worked on an oil rig of the Venezuelean coast. A collegue of mine took most of my stuff with him to the Netherlands. I flew to Miami where I was to spend six weeks backpacking in the USA. I was going to buy most of my kit in the USA, so I arrived with very little on me, other than money and a return ticket. Very suspicious! Full search, they even squeezed the tube of toothe paste I had with me. And I had to go throught the bend over and spread them exercise.

There is no place for racism, but there seems to be a lot of random searches going on, if my experience is anyting to go by. As a layman, you do wonder how effective this is.


Jeroen

[wanderer4x4]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

...They bring their poor behaviour standards, lack of education, lack of common courtesy etc with them.
You can take the man out of the village, but never the village out of the man! .........Such has been the outcome of this sudden 'egalitarianism'. From nothing to everything in no time at all!.

While I agree to the general sentiment of Shankar’s post regarding bad behaviour and the resultant ill treatment from others, I’d like to add that there is rampant bad behavior among the “elite, educated” class as well. And I feel since the context here is Aircraft / Airports, you find a sizeable percentage of these so called “elites” there who are the most obnoxious. I would like to share the following experiences:

1) Flight Sector: Kolkata – Mumbai: Boarding was almost complete and the last few passengers were coming in. There came this “gentleman” in cargos, tees and a hat sporting a ponytail in his forties (imagine a Prahalad Kakkar lookalike), got to his seat and then opened the overhead bin just above his seat. That space was already occupied by someone’s bag and so this guy in a very loud voice threatened that whosoever has put the bag there should move it or else he’ll throw the bag out of the aircraft. What ensued after that was pure ruckus with both sides almost coming to blows shouting their heads off.

2) Flight Sector: Delhi – Mumbai: It was a Jet Airways flight when they were still offering candies on a tray. This elderly gent next to me scooped up 2 fistfuls of those twice and quite shamelessly remarked that he always picks up as much as he can as otherwise the airhostesses anyways take all these home after the flight has landed. The fate of mouth fresheners were the same. These were offered in a cup and this guy picked up all the packets himself without caring for fellow passengers and also resulting in the crew having to go back all the way to the rear galley to bring more of them for others.

3) Flight Sector: Delhi – Singapore: There was this huge ruckus when cabin crew refused these three guys any more of those small alcohol bottles. These guys were hoarding the bottles apart from gulping down copious amounts themselves. After refusal, they created a huge scene calling the crew names like “damn waiters, cleaning people” etc. 2 of the lady crew were in tears by the end of it all.

4) Flight Sector: Kolkata – Guwahati: Boarding had just began and this elderly Marwari couple were amongst the first to board. Immediately after occupying their seats, they took out their food packets and opened up the assorted boxes of parathas, sabjis, achaar, bhujia etc. on the seat back trays. Before taxiing the cabin crew came to them to ask them to close the trays but they had unpacked all their food packets and it was quite messy with achaar and gravy and all. So the crew just gave some disapproving looks and walked away. Now imagine a closed aircraft with the strong smells of pickles and parathas in the morning and you know the stuffy and eeky feeling. Mind you, flight time for CCU – GHY sector is only about 50 mins and they could have avoided taking out all the heavy food items and just could have munched some snacks.

What comes out of the above observation is that the parties in these episodes were not from some rural, remote village but educated, elite metro people. So, it’s apparent that irrespective of urban or rural, a large chunk of us is an obnoxious, ill-mannered group of people even when we are in an “elitist” environment of an aircraft. When airlines crew are subjected to such things day in day out by us, the so called educated Indians, they are bound to have some ill feeling and they start to paint every one of us in a similar brush.

Having said that, I do not in any way condone what AF has done in this case going by the information available. In this instance, they surely could have done more to help out the struck passengers. But, I think they chose not to because of the feeling of “let these lousy, bloody Indians suffer” which feeling may be in turn is somewhat coloured by our own rowdy behaviour.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

....Wow! This country needs many more lessons in civilization indeed!

Agree fully. We are an indisciplined lot and for a race with no "Sorry, Please, Thank you" in their vocabs and behaviour nowadays, its no surprise that we are being given the taste of our own medicine by others.

Sorry for this long rant, couldn’t help.

[srishiva]

I always find that I am frisked less compared to the Americans in the U.S Its true and I think there is some profiling that results in such checks.

On other note, why dont we concentrate on the subject and not try to ridicule the so called rural folks or others who are trying to move to mainstream or flying for the first time. We can at least help them being fellow citizens.

[rejoycjohn]

Originally Posted by vb-san

. Infact, from my experience of international flights in and out of India, lack of common courtesy is more evident with the educated folks. Some airlines (like the one discussed here) may have consistently showed behavioral problems against certain races or population, but many at times the complaints around racism are inflicted by our own behavior.

Indeed , I agree to that. Its a reality that we forget . I am only against putting the whole blame to a sect of people and mentioning that the current economic system which gave economic growth to the otherwise backward or poor people is the reason for such behavior. Its really hard to digest when someone mentions that equality among the many in our economy has created problems.

Lets be honest here, if we suffer implicit/explicit racist comments or behaviors from a handful of citizens of the western countries, its mainly because they think that we are moving to their country to take up their jobs or they are yet to get into terms with the new laws of a border less economy. Atleast they are doing it to another "race", but when we ourselves cannot tolerate the new entrants to the " elite " flying travelers I don't think we have the right to complain.

Originally Posted by phamilyman

You are completely mixing two things:
a. First time travelers' behavior (esp older generation, our parents).
b. General lack of etiquette that Shankar is referring to.

I once had the misfortune of traveling IX622 - Chennai to KL via Air India Express and back. Not something I have good memories of. Forget switching on your phone and talking loudly - junta actually took their bags out and ran to the front to queue to exit, even within a moving aircraft. Surreal!! I'm not even getting into the mess at check-in where junta got all sorts of extra luggage, disallowed carry-on luggage and were simply clueless.

While around 80% of the passengers fit bucket (a) - there were the obnoxious 20% that fit bucket (b). Shankar is talking about (b).

Then there are those intermediate cases like our undisciplined children - like an Aug 2010 flight to Moscow where while waiting for customs clearance, a 6-7 year old (not a 2 year old mind you) raised an unholy ruckus over milk while his hapless Punjabi mother kept pleading and offering him water/chocolate. She was traveling with the kid, first time out of the country, to venice to meet her husband - she couldn't even read english or speak proper hindi for that matter, she didn't have any forex either. There's failure here at so many levels - while I went and helped her out, exchanging rupees for USD, and buying the milk she required, it is at some level about individual responsibility, and being prepared. Being courteous and helpful is good, but we should recognize personal failures as well - this was not some 70 year old of our parents generation. My 68 year old mother insists on keeping forex on HER person, even when traveling with us.

I travel every week and I see similar stories repeat. Nothing new actually.

Well I wish the point a) and b) were treated separately in the original post.
I think the quality of our "non-village " upbringing , education and the "elite" class tag should reflect the way in which we treat those who are not so fortunate to fall into these categories from birth. That's when one should be proud to say that he is civilized.

I know people getting up from the seats the moment they feel that the aero-plane is flying over the Indian territory. More so in the Middle east sector. But there is a big reason for this. Many who work in Gulf gets vacation once in 2 years, they are seeing their motherland after a long period. I know people who leave to work after a month or two of their marriage, or after a month of seeing their new born baby. These people are not fortunate to have Skype chats with their family everyday. These people work in really hard conditions out in the scorching sun and the only thing that they have in their mind while on board is to get out of the plane and rush to their family. They almost reach the limit of their patience the moment they know the flight has crossed the Arabian sea.
Once my fellow passenger who was in his 20's did not eat the food served on board. When I asked for the reason he told me that he had enough when he left and he just want to see his "umma and baappa " and eat the "kozhikodan biriyani " from his house.
Well I am sure that you would have been in one of such flights and yes these cause inconveniences to other travelers ,but being empathetic to their situation will only make us broaden our views.

I really feel that the flight carriers to the Middle east sector consider this special case and accommodate the passengers and their luggage with a rather broad mind. They tag the huge cabin bags and shopping bags that these travelers take along with them and put them back along with the check in bags without any fuss.

With the other incident, what you did was the best thing to do and I am sure you would have got your forex exhausted by giving it to her. I think going that extra mile is something really appreciated and is what makes us humans after all. But honestly I am sure that they were just ignorant about the whole thing about Forex and stuff, but I am sure that on their return trip she would have made sure that she has enough money with her to take care of herself. After all we all learn something new everyday.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I travel internationally a lot. All over Europe and the USA. I'm a 1.93m, 54 year old, very caucasian looking male and carry a Dutch passport. Every year at least once or twice, I find myself the subject of extra security checks on my person, my hand lugage or my paperwork. Both in Europe as well as in the USA.

The most recent one, a few months ago when I flew Delhi, Amsterdam, Stockholm. At Amsterdam you have to go through immigration and a security check as you move from the international part of Amsterdam airport to the Schengen part. Every single item in my handlugage got taken out and inspected by my fellow countrymen.

I always ask for the reason of being singled out, answer is always the same; random selection sir.

Jeroen

May be a perfect example after all to say that not all random / singled out search is due to a person's race.

[phamilyman]

Actually with due respect, there is little point in being overly understanding either.

IX622 was Chennai to KL, i.e most were workers returning back to work. Its not the way you think it is -rather the exact opposite. And you know the funniest? After all the ruckus these guys did by rushing to the front - they queued and waited at the forex counter because they didnt speak english and couldnt exchange forex till an english speaking colleague arrived. Then why were they hurrying? I dont know. I must've been the 30th passenger out of the flight, but I was the first to clear immigration.I was face-palming on my way to my destination.

That said, being emotional on arrival is NOT cause enough to disobey the decorum / safety instructions on a plane or anything else in general. Its a very slippery slope from there to unacceptably bad "chalta hai" behavior. I remember the time some barely/un-educated laborers coming back from Kuwait raised a ruckus about an immigration officer questioning an elderly member of that group who was illiterate and did not recall any correct details about his recent travels. The immigration officer was polite but firm - when he didn't get any clear answers, he askedthe old gent to step aside and meet his supervisor. These guys almost raised slogans including crap like "You should be thankful that we have slogged for years away from our families to earn dollars for India" (that was the most civil statement). Thankfully the immigration officers and CISF put them right back in their place, reminding them that anyone preventing the immigration officer from doing his due job would be liable for deportation back on the same flight or police action or worse, cancellation of passport! Disgraceful behavior to say the least - I and my wife cleared our immigration with the same officer - he was just doing his jobs, asking the questions he is supposed to ask, and he was being polite about it. I doubt these laborers would ever so much as raise their voices with the immigration of any Middle Eastern country - its only back in India that we think its okay to break all rules.

Coming to that lady - she had a undisciplined kid but she was not in the right mental framework to travel. She was okay giving me enough cash for the kid's milk (~80). She was like thanks, I dont need any more cash - my kid is good for a few hours, and then on the flight we'll get food, and in venice my husband is there.I had to insist that she had another flight and a 4 hour layover, she should atleast have forex worth 400 INR on her for another milk/tea. There's no nice way to say it but she had not thought through what international travel entails and how she should do the absolute minimum to be prepared.

Originally Posted by rejoycjohn

I know people getting up from the seats the moment they feel that the aero-plane is flying over the Indian territory. More so in the Middle east sector. But there is a big reason for this. Many who work in Gulf gets vacation once in 2 years, they are seeing their motherland after a long period. I know people who leave to work after a month or two of their marriage, or after a month of seeing their new born baby. These people are not fortunate to have Skype chats with their family everyday. These people work in really hard conditions out in the scorching sun and the only thing that they have in their mind while on board is to get out of the plane and rush to their family. They almost reach the limit of their patience the moment they know the flight has crossed the Arabian sea.
Once my fellow passenger who was in his 20's did not eat the food served on board. When I asked for the reason he told me that he had enough when he left and he just want to see his "umma and baappa " and eat the "kozhikodan biriyani " from his house.
Well I am sure that you would have been in one of such flights and yes these cause inconveniences to other travelers ,but being empathetic to their situation will only make us broaden our views.

I really feel that the flight carriers to the Middle east sector consider this special case and accommodate the passengers and their luggage with a rather broad mind. They tag the huge cabin bags and shopping bags that these travelers take along with them and put them back along with the check in bags without any fuss.

With the other incident, what you did was the best thing to do and I am sure you would have got your forex exhausted by giving it to her. I think going that extra mile is something really appreciated and is what makes us humans after all. But honestly I am sure that they were just ignorant about the whole thing about Forex and stuff, but I am sure that on their return trip she would have made sure that she has enough money with her to take care of herself. After all we all learn something new everyday.

PS: Even those laborers can today call back to India at decent rates and talk a bit. Life's not black and white anymore - not with technology.

[avisidhu]

I had a strong disdain for our fellow contrymen/women due to whatever limited international travel I have done. I believe the reasons have been highlighted better than I could have, in the various posts in this thread.

I had somehow made an assumption that it's just Indians who are a boorish lot, but this got corrected when I landed in a boat with a family of 10-12 Turkish citizens recently. Suffice to say, they matched Indians in pretty much every aspect imaginable.

Obviously it doesn't change my mind about Indians, but nevertheless a bit relieved to know we are not the only ones And like Jeroen said, the bigger the group the worse it gets.

[roy_libran]

Isn't this thread any more about the discriminatory and differential treatment that Air France metes out to Indians, and the consequent harassment of the latter?
Notwithstanding whatever behavior Indians do or do not exhibit, does it give AF a right to discriminate and harass us?
I for one won't offer them my business ever again.

[avisidhu]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Isn't this thread any more about the discriminatory and differential treatment that Air France metes out to Indians, and the consequent harassment of the latter?
Notwithstanding whatever behavior Indians do or do not exhibit, does it give AF a right to discriminate and harass us?
I for one won't offer them my business ever again.

Well yes indeed it is. I read the said article a week ago and wasn't aware this thread exsited. But after reading it, two things came to my mind: a decision to avoid Air France in future and dissuade others, and then I recalled the bahaviour of our fellow citizens abroad and couldn't imagine but think that for at least some part of this discriminatory attitude we also are to blame.

I'm sure you will agree that our behaviour is bad enough to be actually noticed even if 10 nationalities are flying along. As I mentioned in my post above, my perception towards Turks is now prejudiced based on my experience, and my behaviour towards them might be a bit different next time I meet some even if the circumstances are different. In some cases, this perception gets manifested as racism, or even perceived racism.

So the true purpose of this article will be achieved only if we as a society also show some willingness to walk that extra mile and learn how to conduct oursleves while travelling (in India or abroad).

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by avisidhu

So the true purpose of this article will be achieved only if we as a society also show some willingness to walk that extra mile and learn how to conduct oursleves while travelling (in India or abroad).

No denying our failings on the culture and civilized fronts, but that is the subject for a separate discussion.
Reaction to those failings should not manifest itself in the peculiar ways in which Air France behaves especially with Indians.
Denying access to a hotel to an individual stranded due to flight cancellation, or mistreatment of a handicapped mother and her child, cannot be justified against our collective failings!
This thread is about that mistreatment, or so I understood.