16th April 2015, 21:02 | #151 | ||
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: EU - Nordic
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| I wasn't trying to explain AirTel Zero, but proposing an alternate plan if AirTel and others are very eager to connect those who cannot afford to now. Quote:
Problem with the zero cost plan now is that the operator's commercial agreements decide what sites you can access and not you. Quote:
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16th April 2015, 21:25 | #152 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: mumbai
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet Quote:
In today's world nothing comes for free and as long as people are willing to pay for something, there are people willing to hoard and people willing to sell. This net neutrality phenomena sounds good as long as it lasts, but I predict with time we will see paid internet as all other paid services. | |
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16th April 2015, 21:49 | #153 | |||
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: LandOfNoWinters
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet Quote:
2. I asked this question, earlier, perhaps you missed it: whatsapp was not free initially, even though there were a lot of other free apps. Still people used whatsapp and paid yearly subscription. 3. Oh boy. This would be superb. All the oil marketing companies would follow the suit and tie up with Alto or some or the other competitor. End result? Lower price for the end consumer. Quote:
2. To be brutal, wastage of any resource - water, air, fuel exists only because it is available for free or highly subsidized (due to political reasons - again mob rules!). Quote:
Tie-ups will incentivise certain sellers more than others. You are saying as if something of this sort never happens in brick and mortar life? Last edited by alpha1 : 16th April 2015 at 21:51. | |||
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16th April 2015, 22:14 | #154 | ||
BHPian Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Pune
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet Quote:
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Imagine a toll expressway that you just entered after paying a toll of Rs 200 (pune - mumbai). After entering it, you find that if you are travelling in a mercedes you get to take a fast lane since mercedes has paid an amount to the toll collector. Your car is not a mercedes but you would be ok with it as long as the other lanes are not clogged and you can travel as fast as you would have if you were in one. Now on the same lines of the mercedes, a handful of other car vendors who can afford it enter into same agreements and the result is that there are now 2/3 lanes reserved for them. The other lanes start to remain perpetually clogged increasing your travel time and pain. Eventually more and more people start to prefer a car which has an agreement in place because it makes their commute faster/easier. Doesn't matter it is indirectly charging you more (on top of the Rs. 100 that you paid). Doesn't matter it stops innovating on the car itself and is offering you old technology. Doesn't matter there are 5 other small car vendors out there which are better in every way. Now why would we "car enthusiasts" what the small(ish) car vendors to run out of business . They are the ones that still cater to us man!! | ||
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16th April 2015, 23:00 | #155 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: EU - Nordic
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet Quote:
Also, tomorrow as you say if Airtel's rivals come up with similar platforms, Whatsapp probably cannot afford not to join Zero plans of every vendor - or they will lose customers and this is bad for them. And if Whatsapp has to join Airtel Zero, Vodafone Zero, Idea Zero etc just to keep their existing user base, eventually they will have to start charging customers. Would that mean rivals catch up like they did now? Not if they have no money to pay the vendors. This will probably happen for other services as well. If Flipkart is on Airtel Zero, Amazon cannot afford to miss out. If Amazon is on Idea Zero, Flipkart cannot afford miss out. If they have to pay everyone, that money will come from customers. Mobile customers with "zero cost internet" will be paying for their internet access without even realising it - and in the process make everything expensive for everyone else too. Would the "zero cost internet" customers then move away from these schemes and pay for internet? No, why would they if they still "think" their internet access does not cost them a penny? Flipkart or Amazon or anyone else are not idiots not to realise where Airtel Zero type platforms will lead to. But they don't care because they will finally get the money from you. | |
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16th April 2015, 23:24 | #156 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Bombay
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet Quote:
People can spin it any way they wish, but there's no denying that Airtel zero will create an unequal playing field. And that in itself will stifle bandwidth, new innovations, and eventually jack up prices. | |
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17th April 2015, 08:53 | #157 |
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet So what is being said is there is no free lunch, and they would make you pay in other ways. That is a fair argument, but I'd rather pay later. Especially since whether you have to pay is still ambiguous. Now coming to the concept of a "level playing field" for all, why only the internet? As such low cost start ups face more hardships than deep-pocketed corporations. Do we create a level playing field there too? Something like every product should get equal shelf space in shopping malls? There is no neutrality anywhere in this world. The world functions well without it. |
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17th April 2015, 09:52 | #158 | ||
Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet Quote:
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Judges, economists, technologist all agree that it is essential not to put such business interest first into something essential and deep impacting like internet. Again please understand issue is only with having bias or restrictions by data carriers or service providers, no one actually has questioned their pricing motive, which by the way is another interesting topic to debate on. I am curious, why do you think the neutrality concept is damaging? What are your points against this idea and how it is harmful? Last edited by Jaggu : 17th April 2015 at 10:05. | ||
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17th April 2015, 10:07 | #159 | |
Team-BHP Support | Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet Quote:
Airtel Zero is so strongly opposed because this is how we go down a slippery support. Some gentleman has been harping about how competition and free market will take care of everything. Well it did not in the US. As for competition, densely populated areas of India often have only airtel and BSNL. I live in one such area with a duopoly. | |
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17th April 2015, 10:14 | #160 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Bangalore
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet Quote:
The level playing field isn't about hardship, it's about using deep pockets to shut down the competition, there are laws against the practice in nearly every advanced economy, read about Walmart in Germany and how they were prevented from destroying local competition. The shopping shelf example isn't applicable here, say, you wanted an item that your local store doesn't have and what if they pay the road operator to slow you down while going to a store that stocks what you want ? Would you still say that it's OK? The road is the Internet not the store shelf. There is heavy regulation of utilities everywhere the world is indeed better for it. | |
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17th April 2015, 11:08 | #161 | |||
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet Quote:
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17th April 2015, 11:13 | #162 | ||
Team-BHP Support | An extremely well written letter by Odisha CM. Free is not the same as freedom! https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxVv...FYcUtScms/edit Quote:
Freedoms of corporations getting trampled. Are you serious. Corporations are free to charge anything they want for internet access. They are just not allowed do discriminate. Its a very simple principle. When you pay for X amount of data you should get X amount of data irrespective of which site you go to. Quote:
If you want an analogy, will you accept a system where electricity company can charge you 5rs a unit if you use an LG washing machine but 10rs per unit for other manufacturers since they have a tie up. If not, isn't that the right of the power company . Last but not the least, capitalism and free market does not mean lack of regulation. Infact, when there is no regulation, or hostile regulation free market ceases to exist. Take the cable business in India. Areas are divided into operators, and you have just one guy you can choose. In internet access(fixed line), already majority of India(except some cities like Bangalore and Hyd) have duopoly situation where you have just one or two operators. That said, I feel you have already chosen sides in this fight. And so have a lot of others. No amount of logic or explaining will work because there is a fundamental disconnect. People like me consider internet access like electricity. Companies are free to charge whatever they want. They are free to charge more for higher usage, and also create slabs, but what do I use the electricity for should be nobody's business. This I consider to be my right. Does it trample on the right of the power company? I don't think so. As a utility this is not a right in my book. You on the other hand are comparing internet access to "goods". So you have walmart analogy, free market analogy. With such a fundamental disconnect in the arguments, there is no point arguing. Last edited by GTO : 18th April 2015 at 10:40. Reason: Merging back to back posts | ||
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17th April 2015, 11:34 | #163 | |
BHPian Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: bangalore
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet Quote:
A regulated market is not a free market. The real disconnect is about what we find morally right and wrong. Many people here think that the freedom of individuals are of more value than the freedom of corporations. I think that everybody should get to enjoy their freedoms - individual or corporation, rouge or saint. No need of any analogies. | |
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17th April 2015, 12:02 | #164 |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: EU - Nordic
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet |
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17th April 2015, 12:07 | #165 | |||||
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: LandOfNoWinters
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| Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet Quote:
Just like Karl Marx assumed that private enterprises left on their own will exploit the workers. How do you define better? Better specs? LOL! If that was the case Alto would not be the success it is. Safe? Again LOL. Read the above line. In a free market, what is better is defined by how successful it is in being sold. Whether it is a Merc because of tieup with toll vendors or Alto. Also a question for you and other who are so much for net neutrality. Since we always talk about pipes and toll roads while comparing internet - what are your views about variable toll prices? What that means is that the toll company can charge dynamic prices based on the amount of traffic on its road. I am sure most people here would simply be shocked if something of this sorts arrive. That is because you have been lead into believing the concept of fairness. Sorry, even if I see it from point of fairness - I find it unfair that a person traveling at lean period is forced to cough up the same amount as a person traveling at busy timings! Knowing that the current toll road has been especially designed keeping in mind the peak traffic (which means higher cost of investment, maintenance, operations). This means I, a lean period traveler, who actually requires only 2 lane road, is FORCED to pay for a 4 lane roads because all the people around feel is is fair and just that everyone should pay the same. Same thing on Airtel. I primarily use internet to check flipkart. Why should I pay for visiting Flipkart's store, when Flipkart is going to make money form my visit? I would be more than happy if Flipkart woos me by making my internet usage free! You are robbing me by forcing me to pay the per MB rate just because you felt it is fair and everyone wants a neutral internet. Quote:
2. Do you think your newspaper really costs what you pay for? No the advertisers pay for you. Because they want to grab your eyeballs that can lead to a potential sale. You buy newspaper at lower than manufacturing costs, knowing fully well that the seller will recover the cost of advertising from you if you decide to buy. What is wrong in this practice? 3. What is wrong in this practice? Quote:
Electric Discoms have a Govt licensed monopoly and when they do it, you have no other alternative. Here you have several alternative to Airtel. Please don't create panic by equating two opposite scenarios. Quote:
And do you not agree that public lobbying also exists to oppose corporate practices? Quote:
Last edited by alpha1 : 17th April 2015 at 12:26. | |||||
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