[sachinpk]

Originally Posted by vibbs

How is the money in co-operative banks unaccounted. Is it not possible for people to deposit perfectly legal money in these banks only because of the fact that they provide better interest rates? Yes the interest earned is probably not reported. But that makes only that part unaccounted, not the entire corpus. Pls correct me if I am wrong.

Originally Posted by kozhissery

I personally know some such cases where huge amount was parked and no question asked. Just take for instance I do remember where a person had done a land deal and got an amount of 50L+ in cash and just went to the local co-operative bank and kept it there till he could get a different piece of land (and gave advance). He used this account to keep money safe for all his transaction

The money in co-op banks do not go through the rigorous accounting system followed at PSU banks (or any bank monitored by RBI). The fact that these co-op banks do not have TDS schemes etc. show that they are not playing a fair game. These banks also did not do much on ensuring KYC norms are met. So to put it in other words these were nothing more than glorified Chitty companies who showed themselves as banks. The State Co.Op bank and District/Urban Co.Op banks are better as they are Apex banks and do work under RBI guide lines. How ever they too are not as strict as PSU banks. And these banks also handle the accounts of Primary Co.Op societies who are out of the perview of RBI. It is these Primary Co.Op societies who are the biggest trouble makers.

Co.Op banks actually "flew below the radar" to use an Air Force terminology. Now they are in for some trouble, as their accounts would get audited more throughly. People who used these banks as a "parking lot" for their money, would find it locked up till all doubts of RBI and IT Dept. are cleared.

Originally Posted by vibbs

But whose fault is it that the banks exist and operate outside the mandate of RBI? Certainly not the common population's.

The fault lies with the respective state governments who allowed Primary Co.Ops to run the show as they please. Take for example the case of KL. The state government was happy to maintain the status-quo. Why? Because the main revenue sources of the state (land deal registrations, sales tax etc.) were still intact. People did use the "non-tax paid" money to buy land or spend lavishly. The Income Tax which goes to the central government was taking the hit. So here we had people who all were shown as "poor" (non-tax paying people), where as they were really rich enough to buy acres of land and indulge in good spending. Now with this excercise a genuine person may just keep away from these glorified Chitty companies.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Curious, if co-op banks operating outside KYC norms is a concern because it encourages unaccounted hoarding and illegal tax avoidance, why has that loophole been allowed to exist?

Generally a three tier system exists in Co.Op Banking sector in the states. On the very top you have the State Co.Op bank. Below that are the District/Urban Co.Op banks. In the bottom layer, and in much larger numbers are the Primary Co.Op banks, lending socities etc. The first two are under the perview of RBI and notionally at least operate based on RBI instructions. The last one is what messes up the system completely. Primary Co.Op banks do not follow any KYC norm. They are technically classified as a "group of people who work on some common interests" (like farmer's co.op etc. etc.). RBI had asked them to fall in line and start working on its guide lines. Many Co.Op socities in Kerala filed a case in High Court and said they were NOT a bank but just a "group of people who work on some common interests". Hon High Court accepted this and asked RBI to march off. When this demonetisation came in RBI turned the tables, and said that "group of people who work on some common interests" are NOT banks and so cannot exchange notes. They would be just treated as "group of people who work on some common interests" and their deposit and withdrawal limits all would be the same as an individual person . When the whole game started the Co.Op banks and KL state's Fin.Min was all gung ho and said they would file a case in court. In 48 hours flat, they changed their plans because they knew their case would land up in the dust bin.

Originally Posted by poloman

94% of money of 15.5L Crore in 500 and 1000 rs notes have come back.

Originally Posted by vibbs

Just because people put the cash into their accounts, it is wrong to assume that they have managed to convert their black into white. There will still be questions asked by IT and those who cannot substantiate the cash deposits with their declared income will have to pay tax and penalty.

Exactly!! As @vibbs mentioned money in a bank account just does not become "white money". Infact the people who made huge deposits are now really sitting ducks in front of the IT department. A gun-man/PSO of a politician in UP has reported that he has a huge some in his account, and does not know how it came. Smart chap, but the smartness would not last long. My gut feeling is that the government (who would have to show the results) would squeeze the IT department folks, who in turn would squeeze the tax dodgers and make them pay up. A lot many of them may also use the new scheme launched by the govt. 50% penalty, 25% held back for four 4 years in government bond and 25% becomes usable white money.

Originally Posted by perty

Also note that the RBI now seems to have closed the gates on old notes being deposited by resident Indians. Since yesterday, news channels are showing images of people protesting outside RBI offices which have put up sign boards stating that old notes wont be accepted.

The resident Indians had nearly 45-50 days to deposit their money. Were all the resident Indians so busy that they could not approach a PSU bank all this while? How many times do a common man even enter the premises of an RBI office? Because for all practical purpose RBI is not really a common bank. It is the bank of the banks.

Originally Posted by RSR

About 97 percent of the Rs 500 and Rs 1,000 in circulation until November 8 have been deposited back, the report said quoting "people with knowledge of the matter".

I also know a lots of "people with knowledge of the matter" who also wished to remain anonymous who said that about 50% of black money was destroyed by putting them into fire . I am not making fun of your personally, but just showing the way the media reports matter. Any unknown person can say any thing. Better would be to get the information from RBI. And if RBI does not make a press release, use the route of an RTI application.

[RSR]

Originally Posted by RSR

With some more SBN left to be deposited till June 31 by NRIs & those returning to India...

June 31 is never going to happen, because it just doesn't exist!

I confused the two deadlines of March 31 & June 30 given by the RBI for deposit in bank acounts through specified RBI branches - the former for anyone and the latter for NRIs & others who were abroad.

The March 31 deadline for anyone was given a silent burial, leading to altercations at the designated RBI branches.

Originally Posted by sachinpk

I also know a lots of "people with knowledge of the matter" who also wished to remain anonymous who said that about 50% of black money was destroyed by putting them into fire . I am not making fun of your personally, but just showing the way the media reports matter.

I don't care if you do make fun of me, either! I always use the term mainstream media morons, which shows how much respect I have for 'em.

The RBI should know that the sudden & severe lack of information from them (which was freely broadcast earlier) can and would lead to such "reports", unverifiable "insider info", "leaks" etc. I don't know what's still holding them back.

As people began to expect as early as the first week of December that most or nearly all of the money would be back into the banking system, there is no shock factor involved, either! No common man/woman is going to bat an eyelid if the RBI comes out with a press release that 9x.xx % of the SBN have come back.

However, such information would provide a huge dump of ammunition for Opposition benches to fire at the Treasury side, both inside & outside Parliament.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

The resident Indians had nearly 45-50 days to deposit their money. Were all the resident Indians so busy that they could not approach a PSU bank all this while? How many times do a common man even enter the premises of an RBI office? Because for all practical purpose RBI is not really a common bank. It is the bank of the banks.

Because the "Prime Minister" said this:
"There may be some who, for some reason, are not able to deposit their old 500 or 1,000 rupee notes by 30th December 2016.
They can go to specified offices of the Reserve Bank of India up to 31st March 2017 and deposit the notes after submitting a declaration form."

Though some of us are smart enough, there were a few who went by that statement.
Oh, but i suppose they should have assumed he meant the NRIs by "some".

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Curious, if co-op banks operating outside KYC norms is a concern because it encourages unaccounted hoarding and illegal tax avoidance, why has that loophole been allowed to exist?

Why not bring all banking under KYC regulations? What's the downside of knowing one's customer and keeping records? Does implementing KYC norms negate the 'benefits' of a co-op bank compared to a regular bank?

As I learn from my Bank friends there is possibly a grey area. While in a non-KYC account you cannot deposit more than 50k cash at a time, there is really no way to block an RTGS input. Most banks used to like it that way. Then you are supposed to track the money, but it is seldom done.

I hear that the bulk of rural co-op banks are owned/controlled by the local netas/mafiosi. By and large this was a cozy arrangement, but the current dispensation has decided to do away with the old arrangements, and are clamping down hard. Hence all the hullabaloo. Many of these branches are not not even computerized. So much easier of all hanky-panky.

Remember what the current PM did as CM in Gujarat. Do away with a couple of temples for blocking roads, and then nobody could seriously argue if a mosque or two were also done away with for roads. Many of these places had been put up as 'land grab' tricks.

[avisidhu]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

.........
Better would be to get the information from RBI. And if RBI does not make a press release, use the route of an RTI application.

Yes sure, good luck with that:

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...le16973579.ece

[poloman]

As I had indicated some pages back, Indians were doing this great rope trick till Dec 31. Long queues before ATMs have mysteriously vanished now. This was a clear indication of low scale laundering happening. Any person who withdrew 2500 Rs from ATM or 24000 from bank could have made a 20% profit on that by accepting old notes. They deposit old currency in the bank and the cycle repeats. The launderer could accumulate large amount of legal currency this way over a period of time. Govt made a big mistake by giving a 50 days window if the intention was to catch bulk of black money.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by poloman

I hope you are aware that we are looking at figures in lakhs of crores. I don't think NRIs or people in Nepal hold more than a few thousand of crores. Also there is a chance of double counting as described in the quoted article. So the figures are not going to change much. I think lot of self employed people, professionals and small business man have simply deposited their cash balances in to their accounts or their relative's accounts. So there will be a significant rise in the IDS in the coming months.

Ha ha ha, you spoke too soon and that figure has already changed significantly with 97% being deposited already. Anyways instead of debating how much money is with NRI's, Nepal and Bhutan, let's just wait for this drama to play out. June 30th is not so far away.

Regarding the significant rise in tax collections in future, perhaps you're right there, but look at the contraction in business. Many businesses are seeing sales contract by 25-30% and they expect things to continue for at least one quarter, so some of those tax increases will be offset by lower corporate taxes. Also GST seems to be in a dilemma now.

What cost demonetisation?

[sachinpk]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

Also GST seems to be in a dilemma now.

GST would get rolled out. The Constitution has been amended so that the GST now has to be rolled out. So it can be delayed (till Sep 2017), but cannot be denied. Who is opposing GST now? Mainly two states whose ministers have taken a solid hit in demonetisation; KL & WB. The entire legislature, MPs and MLAs from these states would not be able to even bring in a motion to change the Constitution now. All they can do is to do what they have been doing best; harthal & thuggery in their own states. Who would suffer then, the people of those two states. Enjoy!

Ha ha ha, you spoke too soon and that figure has already changed significantly with 97% being deposited already. Anyways instead of debating how much money is with NRI's, Nepal and Bhutan, let's just wait for this drama to play out. June 30th is not so far away.

Looks like many of us spoke soon, for here is the official press release from the RBI. Just because a media outlet like Bloomberg says 97% and a section of Indian media gobbles that up, it does not make it official.

[Chetan_Rao]

Better late than never.

RBI could've avoided all the unnecessary hullabaloo by stating upfront (when the exercise began) that all numbers will be subject to audit before public disclosure, instead of giving in to pressure to release un-audited, work-in-progress numbers that were bound to raise more questions than provide answers.

RBI won't get any credit, but will catch all the flak if stuff goes wrong-side-up. Why not put sensationalism aside and just stick to doing the actual job efficiently?

[sachinpk]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

RBI could've avoided all the unnecessary hullabaloo by stating upfront (when the exercise began) that all numbers will be subject to audit before public disclosure, instead of giving in to pressure to release un-audited, work-in-progress numbers that were bound to raise more questions than provide answers.

Here the fault does NOT lie with the RBI, who is after all just another sarkaari department. The trouble maker is the media, who has now pretty much openly declared that they are not neutral. The media's job is to report news as it happens. Instead of that they have started passing half-baked news, news with a part of the information with held, and at times willful spreading of a wrong message. Here even if the RBI had made any such announcements, the media would have twisted it or just ignored that part and reported the rest.

RBI won't get any credit, but will catch all the flak if stuff goes wrong-side-up. Why not put sensationalism aside and just stick to doing the actual job efficiently?

The sensationalism is a media creation and not the one created by RBI. The "97% notes came back" lie was started off by Bloomberg, a news portal which majority of Indians may not be even aware off. This story was then picked up by Economic Times. And then the old Goebbels' idea - "Tell the same lie a 100 times, it becomes the truth" is put to effective use.

See what would be the next twist. When RBI releases an official figure, the same media (and a few discredited political parties) would spin a story saying -"hey but their earlier figure was 97%" waving the old cooked up report from Bloomberg.

In Kerala, these so called journalists and 24/7 news channel reporters are getting beaten up the moment they enter any big court premise. High Court area has been "sanitised" off these people. What caused so much anger amongst the lawyers? This same old "Tell the same lie a 100 times, it becomes the truth" mentality of the journos. They are now crying with the state CM, High Court judge etc, but the lawyers are now winning. The journos tried a cheap trick against a Police SI in Calicut and filed a false case against him. Within a day 100s of lawyers were ready to fight his case free of cost. The journos ran away, whining. Imagine; Police & lawyers who generally do not get along well now working in unison against a bigger set of lairs.

A minister gave them a good title, and to be frank- that is a well deserved title.
"A lie would go around the world and come back, before truth even wears its shoes" - Chinese proverb.

[binand]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

In Kerala, these so called journalists and 24/7 news channel reporters are getting beaten up the moment they enter any big court premise. High Court area has been "sanitised" off these people. What caused so much anger amongst the lawyers?

You are being uncharitable here. The root cause of the lawyer-media standoff is that a lawyer was found assaulting and molesting a lady in Kochi which the press dared to report.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...w/53288951.cms

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

Here the fault does NOT lie with the RBI, who is after all just another sarkaari department

How does 'could've avoided the mess by waiting for complete facts' translate to 'it's their fault'? You're assuming and inferring stuff that wasn't said. If I wanted to say it's RBI's fault, I would. I didn't.

......even if the RBI had made any such announcements, the media would have twisted it or just ignored that part and reported the rest.

Assumptions again.

If you leave a vacuum, someone with a vested interest will fill it. The RBI went hyperactive with declaring numbers in the initial few weeks - whether voluntarily or because they're sarkari - before realizing this could backfire as they didn't really have the entire set of facts. They then went silent for a while, giving a chance to TRP-obsessed media and rumor-mongers to have a field day. Entirely avoidable situation on the RBI's part, if they'd maintained a prudent stance from Day 1.

As for media sensationalism, nothing has made a difference to it anyway so RBI may as well have not cared about TRP-generating media nonsense, and saved their credibility getting questioned.

.......lie was started off by Bloomberg, a news portal which majority of Indians may not be even aware off

While responding to every unsubstantiated claim cannot become policy, it won't hurt in such unprecedented circumstances to put out a quick press release clarifying the situation. Even if only to say, 'we're working on consolidating the facts, standby for updates', like they have done now.

And then the old Goebbels' idea - "Tell the same lie a 100 times, it becomes the truth" is put to effective use.

To be fair, all sides in this saga have put that idea to maximum use.

See what would be the next twist......

More assumptions.

The best way to fight sensationalism - best way, not the quickest or most popular way - is to counter it with facts.

Like I said earlier in the same thread, Rhetoric is inauditable, easy to spread and impossible to disprove.
Facts, on the other hand, are auditable and (dis)provable. Critics of anything (not just this exercise) may not like facts, may grumble about it endlessly, but nobody can dispute auditable facts.

RBI won't get any credit for a good job, but they'll be made the scapegoat in a heartbeat if the situation demands it.

[sukhoi30]

Originally Posted by poloman

They deposit old currency in the bank and the cycle repeats. The launderer could accumulate large amount of legal currency this way over a period of time. Govt made a big mistake by giving a 50 days window if the intention was to catch bulk of black money.

That's exactly true. Last few days I see that there are almost nil queues in front of ATMs. Also, some ATMs are holding cash for longer periods. Today I went to bank for withdrawing cash and there was no queue. However, they still didn't have the 500 notes for change. For some reason, 500 notes still doesn't seem to circulate more than 2000 notes. Govt. should keep a check on this and stop widespread circulation of 2000 notes.

Originally Posted by sachinpk

The trouble maker is the media, who has now pretty much openly declared that they are not neutral. The media's job is to report news as it happens. Instead of that they have started passing half-baked news, news with a part of the information with held, and at times willful spreading of a wrong message.

Mainstream media has been a disappointment definitely. Lot of misinformation, jingoism and incorrect news has made me skeptical of any news agency these days. With so many news channels vying with each other to show breaking news, there is hardly any news verification. Journalists always try to read between the lines and report them as news. So many instances of people being misquoted have happened. In the name of press freedom, nobody can dare to say anything against them including the Govt.

[sachinpk]

Originally Posted by binand

You are being uncharitable here. The root cause of the lawyer-media standoff is that a lawyer was found assaulting and molesting a lady in Kochi which the press dared to report.

Agreed on the reporting part. But the lawyers also did not want the media to paint a picture that the lawyer is "guilty". I don't think the "molestation case" to be an open & shut case. And the true happenings can only happen after a more detailed investigation by the police, and the scrutiny of the charge sheet filed by them. A Venu or Nikesh Kumar wearing a coat and tie, and giving a verdict at 9PM news would not be the right way to do things here; IMHO.

And did you notice another fact? The journalists have still not been able to *legally* demand any of their rights for court reporting. The media room they had been just locked up, and they have not even filed a case. Most likely, because in a court room these biggies do not have any more rights than an average person who comes and listens to the court proceedings. Any way this is off-topic, so may be we should keep this issue out .

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

While responding to every unsubstantiated claim cannot become policy, it won't hurt in such unprecedented circumstances to put out a quick press release clarifying the situation. Even if only to say, 'we're working on consolidating the facts, standby for updates', like they have done now.

The problem these days is that media is trying to set an agenda for government policies and even the way the government should perform. No government or an organisation can work thinking "what would the media say? Will they be happy some things is done, or not done?". An untrust worthy outlet like bloomberg can start a rumour, and we have our own media tom-tomming the story. Even if RBI governor comes out with any statement, these non trust worthy fellows would only twist the news. You can only wake up some one who is asleep, not some one acting as sleeping.

The best way to fight sensationalism - best way, not the quickest or most popular way - is to counter it with facts.

Sir, I agree with you. But there is also a limit to how much "countering" can one do. There was an old defence minister who was accused of siphoning of funds when a few Army jeeps was purchased. An american journalist asked him about a "rumour floating around, that you have siphoned off money ment to buy jeeps. What is the truth?". This journalist was known to ask such questions (where defending only gets the audience more confused, or lowers once own dignity). Our minister quipped back - "Mr. XYZ, there is a strong rumour that you are a b*****d". What is the truth?. Think about some one taking the pains to explain how he/she was born to a properly married couple? Again, facts like marriage certificates, DNA test etc. etc. can be shown again and again.

Originally Posted by sukhoi30

In the name of press freedom, nobody can dare to say anything against them including the Govt.

In a way what the Govt. is doing is right. Ignore them, and give formal news releases or interviews at a time and place decided by the government. Preferably using government news outlets. So far, their attemps to set an agenda for the government has failed. And then there is the way the lawyers of Kerala, treated these journos. But that cannot be recommended to the government of the day .

[benbsb29]

Am in Kerala at the moment, and had to go to 3 different ATMs across different banks before i could withdraw money. ICICI had money apparently, but machine was not working properly, so couldnt dispense cash. SBI ATM worked perfectly and after getting all the options it had to ask, said it had no money! Dumb interface, undoubtedly. Finally got cash from a Federal Bank ATM. Again, just 2000s, no change.