[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by hserus

You know things get back to normal when all the small momo shops etc that used to take paytm gradually abandon it and go right back to taking cash, people start getting offers for used cars / second sales flats in part cash etc. And that is already happening.

Guess this is where you do your bit. Insist on shops to accept cards or go to a different shop . Some cash will always be there in the system. earlier you would have registered a plot at 20% white and 80% black. Now it's probably closer to 60% white and 40% black.

DEMO is not going to solve all of india's problem. It's but one step which has some gains. Unless you don't leverage the gains the long term outcome won't be desirable.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by hserus

You know things get back to normal when all the small momo shops etc that used to take paytm gradually abandon it and go right back to taking cash, people start getting offers for used cars / second sales flats in part cash etc. And that is already happening.

This was predicted a year ago, and isn't surprising. Unless the root causes are addressed, symptoms cannot and will not go away. Black wealth is generated for valid reasons, and not one of those has been addressed.

As to small traders and trades, in a land of creaking and unreliable infrastructure if one considers that available to every one in India conducting trades, cash is supreme simply because, like Apple, it just works. 100% of the time, which isn't what one can say about Apple.

On an on going basis, people will use and will increase the use of digital because it is more convenient to them, although some may lay claim to patriotism as the reason for doing so.

[sachinpk]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Black wealth is generated for valid reasons, and not one of those has been addressed.

Can you list a few of such reasons (I am not being sarcastic here). Hope it is not excuses like every body cheats, so let me also cheat; kind of reasons. As to businessmen (in general). Chanakya in Arthasastra mentions about the punishments for cheating in which traders & their customers are involved. The traders had the higher doze of punishment. Chanakya's reason was that a businessman will cheat, if given a chance to cheat. That would just not happen other wise. So for any crime involving them, increase their share of punishment.

Originally Posted by hserus

Realty sector still reeling? Certainly picking up to some extent and by the way black is back. My relative is selling a small apartment and wants to sell it all white, he got more than one offer just yesterday to register the flat at 75% of the actual value and take the rest in cash.

It would be pretty naive to believe that a De.Mo done once, that would be the end of black money in a country like India. It is never going to happen, and I don't think GoI also knows that. De.Mo was just the first round fired from the gun, more rounds would get fired. All that De.Mo has done is to get pretty much every one's wealth accounted. New currency worth the value of demonetised currency is still not available in the market, so any one who finds digital modes convenient would use that. But I feel stronger implementation of GST, and then going after the Benami properties would be the next "rounds" which would be getting fired soon. A few sops for the middle class and poor people 6-7 months before the elections would change the people's mind set.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

Can you list a few of such reasons (I am not being sarcastic here).

Just top of my head, 6 of these:
1. To bribe Indians that will not work without one.
2. Because very little returns are seen coming back to me for those taxes I pay after all the leakages, legal and illegal, in the workings of the bodies collecting taxes. Public infrastructure that I have paid taxes for is broken - the government has not kept its side of the social contract underlying collection of taxes.
3. Paying taxes in India is an extremely complex activity. If I can avoid getting enmeshed in it, I would prefer that. It also keeps me away from the need to bribe tax officers who keep using the complex rules as bribe generating opportunities.
4. Getting a better deal for a cash transaction.
5. For those keeping black wealth offshore, it is insurance against the time when India goes kaput or becomes unliveable for a variety of reasons. Even the Delhi smog could be one of these. There are many reasons already and the list isn't reducing.
6. To win elections.

I can think of 10 more, but I haven't the time or energy to do so.

I am surprised the question was even asked.

[sachinpk]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Just top of my head, 6 of these:
2. Because very little returns are seen coming back to me for those taxes I pay after all the leakages, legal and illegal, in the workings of the bodies collecting taxes. Public infrastructure that I have paid taxes for is broken - the government has not kept its side of the social contract underlying collection of taxes.

Well in that case no person in the world would be willing to pay taxes. I don't think there is a country where every thing just works 100% perfect with the tax payer's money all 100% utilised to each tax payer's satisfaction.

I can think of 10 more, but I haven't the time or energy to do so.
I am surprised the question was even asked.

I have gone through most of the scenarios you mentioned (except standing for elections), but have paid tax on my income for the past 20 odd years. Perhaps I was a fool along. I should focused on generating unaccounted wealth; off course fully utilizing every chance to curse this country.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

Guess this is where you do your bit. Insist on shops to accept cards or go to a different shop . Some cash will always be there in the system. earlier you would have registered a plot at 20% white and 80% black. Now it's probably closer to 60% white and 40% black.

DEMO is not going to solve all of india's problem. It's but one step which has some gains. Unless you don't leverage the gains the long term outcome won't be desirable.

Please let me know why I need to make a guy selling cheap momos and already on wafer thin margins pay some transaction commission to paytm for every momo that he sells?

Demo was Tughlaqian. The same way Daulatabad made sense over Delhi as a capital (closer to the centre of the country, out of range of roving bands of Mongol and Afghan etc tribesmen intent on banditry and massacre, etc etc) but was still a failure.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

have paid tax on my income for the past 20 odd years.

So have I for 40 years, but I don't make a big virtue or song and dance out of it. It was all TDS from salaries.

[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by hserus

Demo was Tughlaqian.

It's a free country and you are free to have an opinion.

By the way, I don't see a problem with paying with cash for transactions below 50 bucks. I insist on card for everything above that unless i want to get change for some purpose.but that's just me ...

[Sawyer]

I spent a lot of time here last year pointing out all the defects in the whole sorry scheme - I may even have used the word Tughlakian, I can't recall - and finally leaving realising that I was one of the very few voices decrying the scheme and my time was better spent elsewhere. But I remember seeing a lot more fans of the move then compared to how many such remain on the first anniversary of the cataclysm.

One really can't fool all the people all of the time, while some can be so fooled, is what keeps coming to mind.

Time now to move on again and come back in Nov 2018 to see what's been going on in this thread.

[comfortablynumb]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

I don't think there is a country where every thing just works 100% perfect with the tax payer's money all 100% utilised to each tax payer's satisfaction

Umm, maybe off topic for this thread, but the Nordic countries come pretty close to this (maybe Switzerland and Germany too, but that is just a guess) - I've stayed in one for 6 months and have been interacting with their citizens on a regular basis for the past 7 years. Believe me, unless you are a Gold medalist in the Nit Picking Olympics, it's really quite hard for a common citizen to find fault with how their (admittedly quite high) taxes are utilized.

Off topic over, back to the thread

Cheers,
Vikram

[Chetan_Rao]

The issue isn't the need or expectation of administrative perfection (which probably doesn't exist anywhere), the issue is plenty of people in this country either pretend to, or genuinely believe that a tax-paying citizen has no right to demand accountability in return. Any such demands are met with either derision, accusations of being corrupt, partisan, an idealist or the newest fad, 'seditious' behavior.

I've paid every penny of tax I've ever owed, irrespective of how unjustified, irrational and devoid of logic I may have thought some taxes to be, and I believe I have the right to demand answers in return which go beyond some version of 'trust us we know what's we're doing' while everything I see around me suggests otherwise.

[sachinpk]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

The issue isn't the need or expectation of administrative perfection (which probably doesn't exist anywhere), the issue is plenty of people in this country either pretend to, or genuinely believe that a tax-paying citizen has no right to demand accountability in return.

I totally agree with you. But there also exists an equal number of people who also quite strongly believe that evading taxes, or bribing, or using any illegal means to better their life is also a good thing to do. We cannot have an ethical government from a citizenry who are corrupt/dishonest in ethics.

Originally Posted by comfortablynumb

Umm, maybe off topic for this thread, but the Nordic countries come pretty close to this (maybe Switzerland and Germany too, but that is just a guess) -

Many of these Nordic "countries" are not even half the size of some bigger states in India. And population density is quite low in those countries. Every country and its people basically get the governments which they deserve .

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

...... We cannot have an ethical government from a citizenry who are corrupt/dishonest in ethics......

You're right, one cannot separate the government from the people (they came from amongst us), exactly why I think accountability works both ways.

Expecting citizenry to come clean while giving the govt. a pass, will fail the same way as holding govt. accountable while giving the citizenry a pass. One doesn't work without the other, it only works as a whole.

'Govt. of the people, by the people, for the people' has an unsaid/implied fourth bit; 'govt. is the people'. We'll never achieve anything as long as we believe in (or strive towards) separating the two entities and/or hold them to different standards.

[civic-sense]

Any money taken from you without your consent is theft, even if it has a nice name called "tax". If it was voluntary, nobody would pay tax. So even if you paid all your taxes, if you did it because of compulsion, it is still theft.

Actually, we didn't sign up for any of these. We are forced to pay up because we can't live here without paying. We pay disproportionate amount of taxes when compared with the benefit we get out of it. Most of our tax money is spent on wasteful things like subsidizing other people's lifestyle.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Any money taken from you without your consent is theft, even if it has a nice name called "tax". If it was voluntary, nobody would pay tax. So even if you paid all your taxes, if you did it because of compulsion, it is still theft.

Where did you pickup this definition of tax?

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Actually, we didn't sign up for any of these. We are forced to pay up because we can't live here without paying.

Can you live without roads, law & order, sewage, garbage collection, etc.?

Originally Posted by civic-sense

We pay disproportionate amount of taxes when compared with the benefit we get out of it. Most of our tax money is spent on wasteful things like subsidizing other people's lifestyle.

Actually, current generation pays the least income rates in the history of our country. Check the income tax rates prior to 1971. The top slab was 75%.