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Old 3rd September 2018, 16:13   #2626
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

One thing I don't understand is, how come there hasn't been any CAG audit of a financial exercise of the scale that DeMo was? Does it fall outside their purview? Or has there been such an audit, and it just wasn't published?

Reminds me of this exchange from Yes Minister:

Jim Hacker: "Suppose he [Professor Henderson] produces one of these cautious wait-and-see reports?"
Sir Humphrey: "Well in that case we don't publish it, we use the American report instead."
Jim Hacker: "Oh fine, you mean we suppress it?"
Sir Humphrey: "Certainly not, we just don't publish it."
Jim Hacker: "What's the difference?"
Sir Humphrey: "Oh Minister, all the difference in the world. Suppression is the instrument of totalitarian dictatorship, we don't talk of that sort of thing in a free country. We simply take a democratic decision not to publish it."




Cheers,
Vikram
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Old 3rd September 2018, 16:17   #2627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
Many fishes have lost money. There is a reason why people are quoting "rafale" as "aircraft carrier". Specially the left and central wing elements. I reckon such big fishes should be publicly named & shamed. Unfortunately. we are not banana republic where public shaming is promoted.
Huh? But what's the connection between demonetization and the Rafael deal? (Hope the answer is something more than 'If you have to ask then you don't need to know/You're a leftist/You're anti-Modi/India )

And how does publicizing any economic offenders name (whatever end of the political spectrum they belong to) amount to us being a banana republic or not?

A lot of concepts being thrown around. No numbers yet, sadly. Believe me, a lot of us would be overjoyed to know that several 'black money hoarders' did suffer because of demonetization. But who? Did the really big shadow economy players really keep their black money in currency notes?

Last edited by am1m : 3rd September 2018 at 16:18.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 16:20   #2628
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

Just some data.

https://www.incometaxindia.gov.in/Do...2014-15-V1.pdf

https://www.incometaxindia.gov.in/Do...AY-2015-16.pdf

Since we are discussing Demonetisation, the tax related impact of this can be analyzed only comparing what happened in the preceding year to the rule and not 3-4 years.
The above links show that AY 2014-15 had 3,91,28,247, and 2015-16 had 4,35,99,192.
The key AY for Demo impact would be AY 2017-18, of which data is not yet published in the Incometax India website.

A second thing is, there were news items about higher percentage of ITRs filed this year compared to 3-4 years before. The Rs5000 fine for late filing did the trick. I myself have filed 2 successive years ITRs without fine earlier. There was no fine for filing in the same AY (until March that is). Later to that also, the fine if I remember correctly was something of a percentage of tax to be paid.

Image below is the Time series numbers from the same source.

https://www.incometaxindia.gov.in/Do...ta-2016-17.pdf
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Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!-aysnap3.jpg  

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Last edited by ashokrajagopal : 3rd September 2018 at 16:34.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 18:39   #2629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by am1m View Post
Huh? But what's the connection between demonetization and the Rafael deal? (Hope the answer is something more than 'If you have to ask then you don't need to know/You're a leftist/You're anti-Modi/India )
I was trying to highlight the indirect pain of demon on few intellectuals & their indirect reaction. Agree, it is not directly linked but there are many things which are not in public domain.

Between, I am not a fan of current PM or govt but some body who thinks that change is good & we need to be made uncomfortable if we need to progress. History is replete with examples of "No pain no gain". He is bringing that change in what ever possible way. Of course that will put few in Uncomfortable position who always thought that this country is their personal property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by am1m View Post
And how does publicizing any economic offenders name (whatever end of the political spectrum they belong to) amount to us being a banana republic or not?
Rules must be followed. There is no such rules as for as i know under which tax man can name such individuals publicly. I could be wrong as well. Moreover naming them publicly serves no larger interest.

Last edited by benbsb29 : 4th September 2018 at 17:03. Reason: Corrected 'personnel' to 'personal'.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 18:48   #2630
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
Rules must be followed. There is no such rules as for as i know under which tax man can name such individuals publicly. I could be wrong as well. Moreover naming them publicly serves no larger interest.
1. Leaves the government open to libel actions

2. For all the public naming it isn't all that productive if the individual concerned has moved all his ill gotten wealth abroad and then got himself a foreign citizenship in some far distant Caribbean island.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 21:10   #2631
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

Many emotional comments on this topic - I'm surprised. In my view, an objective analysis of a executive decision of this magnitude and risk, is not just nice to do thing, but very necessary to improve the quality of governance we get in India (does anyone think it's high quality?).

Such an analysis should focus on actual vs plan, and the decision maker owns the responsibility for making it work, not others. In light of the fact that RBI reported 99% of the notes in circulation got returned, maybe we need to reexamine our belief that India has a huge black economy, or else that the quality of decisions by the government remains low and reactive, as has been over decades.

Whether one is pro NaMo or anti NaMo in immaterial, there is no getting away from the fact that demonetization affected almost every individual and business in the country, and many abroad.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 21:27   #2632
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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
99.3% of notes returning to the economy is a massive LIE.
This is officially the RBI's data, you cannot seriously believe that RBI is lying through the teeth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
Care to provide source of above Figure in bold else we are speculating or I Will assume some meme you might have seen.
These are actually fairly conservative numbers, please go through the links below:
https://indianexpress.com/article/in...-year-4927410/

https://thewire.in/economy/unprecede...demonetisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
That's a small cost to pay for bringing dishonest people into books. If they are able to double the taxpayers, I will still favor them. .
The GOI cannot name a single Politician or a big businessman who has been charged anywhere remotely due to this.
The cost as you say, is people paying with their lives, around 160 of them. Is that not downright shameful? Is that not GOI's or rather the PM's responsibility?
The Politicians or big business wern't losing their lives or time - just to get their own hard earned money. The same people who toil and sweat to make a living were doing that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
Please list out what all scams have happened in past 4 years and amounts involved.
Scams are official now. They are Policy decisions made to suit friends and family who happen to be big businesses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
Could you explain above please. I am sure govt cannot falsify number of tax paying citizens and collected amount.
Don't think the numbers are false. However, what should be noted that look at numbers in context. And here is the context:
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/did-...really-1772370

>The net increment is 25% as compared to 22% in Tax Returns (3% Extra)
>Tax Base 24% as compared to 40% (Lower increase - this should be a huge issue)
> New Tax Payers past 3 years : 76 lakh vs 63 lakh vs 81 or 91 lakh, (conflicting figures of Finance Ministry & Economic Survey)


Quote:
Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
Lastly, i am surprised with people shouting "Democracy in danger" and what not on this thread.

We got independence from Britishers some 70 years back but some where we are still slave via their proxies.
Well again context - most of the media is directly or indirectly controlled by the GOI, you need to understand why Raghav Behl (now- Quint, previously- TV18) hasn't been granted a TV Channel license even after so many years, while a certain Arnab backed by a BJP MP got his in 3 months or so.

So instead of reporting on Joblessness, crime against Minorities, women and fact based reporting, all of these channels have just become glorified versions of Doordarshan. All they ever do is shout India-Pakistan, Terrorism, Urban Naxal, Pseudo-Seculars and what not. They are lackeys of the Govt.

Asking questions, expecting responses and criticising the govt is the right of the people, when did that become anti-India? Calling them slaves is a bit shallow, just because the Govt. doesn't have answers.

Last edited by GTO : 4th September 2018 at 08:01. Reason: Rule #13. Please avoid discussion on politics or politicians. Thanks
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Old 3rd September 2018, 23:22   #2633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batish View Post
Why to have scams when you can legitimately get electoral bonds and keep yourself out of RTI.
I can't see any reason to have scams when you can get the money you want and don't even have to pay any tax on it. (Reference - Business Standard)



What you're referring to is the number of ITR's filed, not the value of taxes collected. Almost 53% of the people who have filed returns are <= 3,50,000.
We know upto 2.5 Lakh there's no tax and after that its 5%. (AY 2015-16) Even if there is increase in collections from direct income why not reduce taxes on fuel?
Completely agree. The Govt. legislation of back dating the FCRA regulations to accept Foreign currency as party funds was downright shameless and was passed without a debate.

The Tax numbers prove absolutely nothing. The increases have been there all along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
At Least, we do not have any 2G or 3G or COAL Scams so far. No one can speak for future.
Corruption is legal in India now. It is done by formulating Policy. Atleast earlier, Govts. would feel ashamed when they are caught, now, it's just the Policy.

Just an example: How did the offset contracts go from HAL (non-profit) to a private player (Reliance Defence). The whole process stinks of nepotism and crony capitalism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
Many fishes have lost money. There is a reason why people are quoting "rafale" as "aircraft carrier". Specially the left and central wing elements.
So questioning the Govt proves many fishes have lost money? What crazy logic is that? Forget about opposition, most sensible journos (unlike govt. parrots) have asked this question. Where is the accountability?

It is not Govt. money that is used, it's the money of the people and they have a right to ask accountability and that law hasn't been changed last I checked.

We are going but, people have a right to ask questions. What did the bankers who worked 14 hour shifts for months and paid fines out of their pockets when there was a miscalculation achieve? What has the whole process achieved? Did it have any positive?

My take is fairly simple- DeMo achieved its objective, the objective was UP Elections; which the central Govt. won.

Full Disclaimer: I was one of those people who voted for this govt. and was at the time of DeMo, positive and hoping it ushers in a change.

BTW, I don't know if we ever had a PM who hasn't done a PC ever, NaMo might be the first! Think it's time he answered the questions. What's the harm in an official PC, where relevant ministers answer questions. But hey, maybe I expect too much.
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Old 4th September 2018, 09:18   #2634
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
What was not clear in your post was number of scams. I am assuming we are looking for scams since current govt took over. Historically there are many books on these scams starting from 1947.
Did I talk about scams? You counter my points about demonetization by saying that there have been no scams, yet in the public domain? This thread was about demonetization and not Congress vs BJP. Infact right at the start it was clearly laid out to keep politics away. We are ONLY discussing demonetization here. So lets stick to that.

Regarding the tax payer data, go through this article.
https://www.equitymaster.com/diary/d...by-Individuals

The number of tax payers increase every year.
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Old 4th September 2018, 09:50   #2635
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The taxpayer increase is an artefact of many lowest income group people - maids, drivers etc - having to open bank accounts, paytm wallets etc and accept online transfers. This lands them squarely in the tax net and of course led to an one time increase in the number of tax assesses.

They don't get to pay a penny in tax even if they have to file returns. The only people gaining are the banks that keep depleting their accounts with minimum balance charges and the CAs who get approached to file these people's returns.

Meanwhile all the actual ill gotten wealth is safe in land, gold, shares etc.
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Old 4th September 2018, 10:33   #2636
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Touting digital payments, increase in tax filings etc as a positive outcomes of demon is like saying, I bought a smartphone that was dead on arrival, but hey no loss, cos the box came with free earphones and charger that works just fine.
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Old 4th September 2018, 12:10   #2637
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

Looks like 2000 notes have vanished, even banks do not have them. ATMs have 500 if you are lucky. Counters have old 100 notes.Even from a MNC bank, where we are high rated customers my wife could get only 30000 in 2000 notes (used).
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Old 4th September 2018, 12:20   #2638
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Looks like 2000 notes have vanished, even banks do not have them. ATMs have 500 if you are lucky.
Not in Bangalore. Just withdrew a significant amount and got it mainly in 2000s.

That's also an unanswered question around DeMon, if we scrapped 'high-value' notes, why did we introduce a higher value one? Yeah, to get cash into the hands of people fast initially after the scrapping, but it does not seem logical. To me at least.

Anyway, if they have stopped printing them now, then it probably makes some sense. Very confusing though. The government should just release all the data they have or admit it didn't work out. At least then future governments will think twice about taking such a step.

Last edited by am1m : 4th September 2018 at 12:22.
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Old 4th September 2018, 13:14   #2639
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Looks like 2000 notes have vanished, even banks do not have them. ATMs have 500 if you are lucky. Counters have old 100 notes.Even from a MNC bank, where we are high rated customers my wife could get only 30000 in 2000 notes (used).
Rs 2000 banknote got vanished during Karnataka state elections. Later ATMs suddenly started vomiting Rs 2000 notes after the elections were over.

Now few more state elections including Rajasthan and MP are approaching, followed by parliament elections, so be prepared for much worst situation staying for much longer period nation wide.


Quote:
Originally Posted by am1m View Post
That's also an unanswered question around DeMon, if we scrapped 'high-value' notes, why did we introduce a higher value one? Yeah, to get cash into the hands of people fast initially after the scrapping, but it does not seem logical. To me at least.
Rs 2000 note was deliberately brought there for a reason, not any Sherlock Homes affair to guess.


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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
increase in tax filings etc as a positive outcomes of demon is like saying
This so called argument of 'tax filing increment' can seduce only those who are not aware of the historical progress.

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Old 4th September 2018, 16:33   #2640
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

Well how about this for "colored" nosing?
https://www.bloombergquint.com/opini...ban#gs.zKs70bY

Quote:
Originally Posted by hserus View Post
You wanted to say brown, say brown. Blaming Raghuram Rajan for this debacle is a joke, to put it mildly.

ps: Andy Mukherjee is fantastic. And unbiased. He's written for a couple of decades now, for a wide variety of Indian and International newspapers, currently with Bloomberg.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andymukherjee/
I did, but PC'd it for the forum.
That piece of news, though, from the planning comm, is a fantastic yarn.

Last edited by mayankk : 4th September 2018 at 16:44.
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