[carwatcher]

I can safely say that you are refusing to see the writing which is written very largely on the wall.

I have started to really feel pity at the negativity generated among the masses by the media. Not very recently many lobbyists who had never read Economics in their life started writing prophecies about the doomsday which may fall on Indian Economy on the day Raghuram Rajan would retire.

We fully support the scheme but execution is bad and we care about the poor but given a chance would personally withdraw as much cash as possible is also current fad/flavour of the season.

Originally Posted by 400notout

In a democracy, people have the right to criticise their govt. As far as support is concerned there is no option but to go with the ruling. But to assume the govt is morally and legally unquestionable is funny and naive. "anti-Modi is anti India" that seems to be the flavour of the season.

Off topic : I want a solution for Delhi's current pollution but which must not inconvenience the public or say the poor.

[sukhoi30]

There are couple of issues going around ...

1. People queuing up to exchange old currency.
2. People queuing up to withdraw new currency from their account.

I am wondering even after so many days, why people are continuing to exchange old currency? Either many businesses are still accepting the old currency or there are touts who are replacing black money currency with new currency.
I think Govt. should stop this exchange thing at the earliest. They did reduce from Rs. 4500 to Rs. 2000 but still people seem to be queuing up to hoard currency.

People who are queuing for withdrawing from their accounts, should be able to withdraw as much as they want. But limit the smaller notes to say Rs. 2000 per withdrawal.

Till all ATMS are functional, queue for withdrawal from banks will be seen.

[bblost]

Originally Posted by sukhoi30

I am wondering even after so many days, why people are continuing to exchange old currency?

I deposited old currency today because I did not want to go and stand in the initial rush.
My thought being that people like me, who have access to credit cards etc should not clog the system.

[sukhoi30]

Originally Posted by bblost

I deposited old currency today because I did not want to go and stand in the initial rush.
My thought being that people like me, who have access to credit cards etc should not clog the system.

Yes, yes ... depositing is fine. I was talking about exchange of notes. Govt. should stop the exchange of notes now. Let it be deposited to some account.
It is high time the exchange window is closed. The exchange "offer" is simply sucking away the money into the hoarders chest.

[400notout]

Originally Posted by JLS

Will you be happy if this perpetuates?

How does this change anything? Just the notes have changed. Cash is still alive its more of a scramble to have valid ones.

Originally Posted by JLS

Sir, another flavor of day is that poor are suffering - contradictory?

Well people have died, and there are queues. Long ones. You differ?

Originally Posted by JLS

Sir, if no big denomination note available then I will be damned, if new currency note with different denomination with more security features is introduced - it is self defeating.

Let the ban remain, why introduce 2k notes is my question. Please enlighten.

Originally Posted by JLS

Yes, the initiative can be termed right and effective only if its effect is felt in seven days - or is five the right no of days?

Ooh sarcasm! Time will tell. I have seen people with lots of cash and those with none. Guess who's laughing?

Originally Posted by JLS

Two conclusions from the above:
1. If I am laughing and happy - I am corrupt
2. If I am not toiling - I am not common

That is some shallow reading. Common people usually are the collateral damage in such situations. But according to you people are pleased as a punch visiting banks.

Originally Posted by JLS

There is one instrument called cheque - acceptable at all government counters - I have paid my property tax, income tax, and others through cheques! Now a days, for many of them electronic transfers are also applicable.

You are doing this on purpose and having fun while you are at it. We do not have a cashless infrastructure at the grass root level to handle such mass cash crunch.

Originally Posted by JLS

Flavor of the day, right?

Flavours galore my friend

[SDP]

Originally Posted by 400notout

...Very funny. Can you pay an autowallah without cash? Many people spend minimum 20-40 rs per day hailing a share auto to the railway station. Was there any intent of making these services cashless? Are all the Govt cash counter equipped with debit card swipe machines? Online payment yes! card swipe no! Does the traffic constable use a machine to accept fines? why not?
...

I think we are confusing between demonetization and cashless-economy. The removal of 500 & 1000 Rs notes is NOT a move for cashless-economy. The temporary crunch for cash has resulted into a push for online/cashless transactions. But, was that the intention? Don't think so.

Coming to your questions, let's understand a couple of things:
1. 86% of all the cash was in 500 and 1000 Rs denominations. This is what has been recalled.
2. Rest 14% cash of the nation is in 100Rs and lower denominations and is very much in circulation.

The automwallah and share-auto examples you have given.. these guys hardly ever handled 500Rs and 1000Rs notes for their 20-40Rs transactions. In fact, you would get a very nasty stare and a few mumbled abuses if you pull out a big note like 500/1000. So the 500/1000Rs notes scrapping was not supposed to impact these transactions at all as they happen in 100Rs and lower denominations. Don't people generally carry enough 100Rs and 10Rs notes in their wallets to be able to pay for a share-auto, a cutting chai, a cigarette, a wada-pav? So what has changed?
1. Smart alecs are trying to pay a autowallah with a old 500Rs note for a bill of 60Rs.
2. Other bunch of Einsteins who used to top up their bike with a "sau ki patti" (a 100Rs note) have suddenly started pulling out a 1000Rs note for 100Rs of petrol.
3. People who used to carry less than 500 Rs cash in change have withdrawn 4000/4500Rs cash from banks/ATMs.

All of these smart-moves by the ever-Jugadu common Indian has created a pressure on the supply of 100 and lower denominations. Its these people who have to be blamed for the shortage created.

[400notout]

Originally Posted by heavenlybull

Suddenly everyone is super concerned about the poor of India, be it politicians, businessmen or intellectuals. Sadly poor are always pawns to be used as and when needed. Why do you say corrupt are laughing? Are they easily being able to convert old notes to new with no loss? What business people are having exciting times? Touts who have started exchange business, please explain?

Will you believe if I tell you people are making money and not just converting it? Its all about how smart the individual is. There are people who panicked and exchanged cash for half the price. But lot of people have sold are selling / making business deals which was other wise difficult. Its survival of the fittest. Remember there is no jail, just income tax penalty and excise scrutiny. this will be dealt with March end. All you need is a good accountant.

Originally Posted by heavenlybull

Motive is up for debate. No one denies that temporary difficulties are not being faced.

Thanks. That's all I ask.

Originally Posted by heavenlybull

But no pain, no gain. Most people are in favor of the move. We should try to help out people who are in dire need of cash. I have started doing my bit by converting a small amount of cash for our maid who is from out of state and don't have a Delhi ID

As a citizen we should be more sympathetic towards each other, I agree.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by 400notout

Flavours galore my friend

Good luck with your efforts; I gave up on presenting any contrary views here over 24 hours ago, after many attempts of doing that in this thread.

I went to the bank as planned yesterday to deposit my old notes, to not join and add to the early panic; just before I did that I reflected and realised that much of my support system here - the various vendors like chemist, grocer, bakery and the like - are still accepting the old notes because they are being more sensible than most Indians that are behaving like a herd of sheep. There is a challenge of obtaining change in return, but there are practical workarounds to that.

I therefore deposited only half of what I had planned to, because why deposit it all and then stand in a long line to withdraw money when what I had was perfectly usable? And depositable all the way up to Dec 31? And it would have been a long line to withdraw new(!) money - there was no cash in the bank because the manager said the line starts at 7 am and cash gets over in a couple of hours after the branch opens. When I did my deposit in the afternoon, there was no crowd because the bank had no cash. This, in an affluent Pune suburb.

Now I shall be accused of being anti national and conspiring to make this grand scheme a failure. So be it, but I know perfectly well that I am not breaking any law.

And in an earlier post, you remarked that you hope all of this succeeds. So do I, very sincerely. But I am seeing too many signs of things not working according to a grand master plan, so as a concerned Indian, I remain very anxious.

[400notout]

Originally Posted by SDP

I think we are confusing between demonetization and cashless-economy. The removal of 500 & 1000 Rs notes is NOT a move for cashless-economy. The temporary crunch for cash has resulted into a push for online/cashless transactions. But, was that the intention? Don't think so.

Coming to your questions, let's understand a couple of things:
1. 86% of all the cash was in 500 and 1000 Rs denominations. This is what has been recalled.
2. Rest 14% cash of the nation is in 100Rs and lower denominations and is very much in circulation.

The automwallah and share-auto examples you have given.. these guys hardly ever handled 500Rs and 1000Rs notes for their 20-40Rs transactions. In fact, you would get a very nasty stare and a few mumbled abuses if you pull out a big note like 500/1000. So the 500/1000Rs notes scrapping was not supposed to impact these transactions at all as they happen in 100Rs and lower denominations. Don't people generally carry enough 100Rs and 10Rs notes in their wallets to be able to pay for a share-auto, a cutting chai, a cigarette, a wada-pav? So what has changed?
1. Smart alecs are trying to pay a autowallah with a old 500Rs note for a bill of 60Rs.
2. Other bunch of Einsteins who used to top up their bike with a "sau ki patti" (a 100Rs note) have suddenly started pulling out a 1000Rs note for 100Rs of petrol.
3. People who used to carry less than 500 Rs cash in change have withdrawn 4000/4500Rs cash from banks/ATMs.

All of these smart-moves by the ever-Jugadu common Indian has created a pressure on the supply of 100 and lower denominations. Its these people who have to be blamed for the shortage created.

Agreed with all that you said. I was just responding to the cashless article shared earlier. Also some people are questioning other peoples withdrawal of their own money which I find funny. My concern is not for the autowallah but the common person who needs to spend atleast upto 100 daily for the items you have mentioned. Running out of cash is scary especially for people who have long commutes daily or send their children to distant colleges / schools which is common in a city like Mumbai atleast.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Good luck with your efforts; I gave up on presenting any contrary views here over 24 hours ago, after many attempts of doing that in this thread.

I went to the bank as planned yesterday to deposit my old notes, to not join and add to the early panic; just before I did that I reflected and realised that much of my support system here - the various vendors like chemist, grocer, bakery and the like - are still accepting the old notes because they are being more sensible than most Indians that are behaving like a herd of sheep. There is a challenge of obtaining change in return, but there are practical workarounds to that.

I therefore deposited only half of what I had planned to, because why deposit it all and then stand in a long line to withdraw money when what I had was perfectly usable? And depositable all the way up to Dec 31? And it would have been a long line to withdraw new(!) money - there was no cash in the bank because the manager said the line starts at 7 am and cash gets over in a couple of hours after the branch opens. When I did my deposit in the afternoon, there was no crowd because the bank had no cash. This, in an affluent Pune suburb.

Now I shall be accused of being anti national and conspiring to make this grand scheme a failure. So be it, but I know perfectly well that I am not breaking any law.

And in an earlier post, you remarked that you hope all of this succeeds. So do I, very sincerely. But I am seeing too many signs of things not working according to a grand master plan, so as a concerned Indian, I remain very anxious.

Lol good for you, you kept half your cash with you. I deposited whatever few thousands I had, exchanged a couple for a 2k note. After finishing my last tenor, I now buy veggies from More megastore as they accept cards . I wish I had kept a couple of 500s. I have stopped purchases and resort to card payments but I shudder to think what will happen if I take out the car and it gets a puncture. No cards accepted by the local tyrewallah or should I go to the service centre for this? I will just avoid using cash till I can. Hope this madness ceases and something good comes out of it. Though I'm skeptical, I would love to be surprised.

Sorry for back to back posts mods please merge.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by 400notout

Lol good for you, you kept half your cash with you.

I now buy veggies from More megastore as they accept cards .

See my post #849 way back on this thread for where I got the insight for keeping the demonetised cash. Allied to the fact that I had also accepted these notes for an old motorcycle I sold a couple of days after the nuclear explosion, because I was very clear in my mind that I am not breaking any law by doing so. And neither was a friend's chauffeur that bought the bike.

Good for you that you have an access to the megastore; many don't in India or haven't the means to, by card. But there is another side of the coin to your action, which I am sure you recognise. In now using More, you have taken business away from someone you patronised before; and surely not from a black money hoarder. Now that person has less means to feed his family.

Multiply that effect many times over for many people that have shifted their patronage without thinking twice.

[blacksport]

The govt should, without delay, disband the following organisations that are redundant and instead conduct demonetization exercise every few years.

> Income Tax Department (Intelligence & Criminal Investigation)
> Enforcement Directorate (Under Foreign Exchange Management Act,1999 and Prevention of Money Laundering Act,2002)
> Central Economic Intelligence Bureau (CEIB)
> Directorate of Revenue Intelligence (DRI)
> Bureau of Police Research and Development (BPR&D)
> Joint Intelligence Committee (JIC)

Why should we waste money on paying salaries to so many people?

The govt has, through the demonetization exercise, shifted the burden of proof onto the people. It is up to the people to prove his money is white, not the other way around.

[carwatcher]

Continuing your post, why they shift their patronage due to simple reason that the other vendor uses card and is part of the banking system. That is exactly Govt wants to convey.

Few very very small vendors use PayTM and transferring money to bank costs 1% compared to 2% against credit card. And setting up PayTM for payment takes not more than a couple of minutes and the bank account can be opened at your convenience. Till then the balance in PayTM account can also be used to pay their expenses. How simple does more than this a process of conversion can get.

One more thing to note that PayTM like companies are referred to as Payment Banks (if I am not mistaken) and are regulated by RBI and also require KYC documents.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Multiply that effect many times over for many people that have shifted their patronage without thinking twice.

[ptushar]

Originally Posted by 400notout

The salaried people are gaga over this move, he has caught the pulse of the poor and gained on their impression of the rich as filthy hoarding criminals.

Of course they are. Because they are ones who pay taxes honestly through TDS. Neither the rich nor the poor contribute to taxes. So if the salaried class is going gaga then I support it full time.

Originally Posted by 400notout

I dont want a rollback, but I wont be fooled to believe this is for the "greater good".

What you believe is finally your choice. Glad that you agree that a roll back will be tremendously detrimental to the morale of the tax paying citizen.

Originally Posted by 400notout

Very funny. Can you pay an autowallah without cash? Many people spend minimum 20-40 rs per day hailing a share auto to the railway station. Was there any intent of making these services cashless?

Here is again where I disagree. I have got three people on PayTm in this period. Including an Auto driver. And you can pay small amounts very quickly on mobile wallets. Please try it once. You will love it. Many small businesses like vegetable vendors, road side stalls etc have accepted PayTM as mode of payment. Instead of questioning this, adopt it and spread the word. Let people know that you get cashback on these services and promotional offers where they can save money. If we people do our bit, this economy will start moving towards being near-cashless if not totally cashless.

Now think of this. In the data released last year (for the first time),28.7 million people filled tax returns. Of these 16.2 million paid zero taxes. So only 12.5 million paid taxes. Let's assume that these 28.7 million at an average support 4 non-tax paying citizens each (spouse, children, parents etc). That accounts for 143.5 million people. In a population base of 1250 million people, we have 143.5 million who are accounted for. What happens to the remaining 1106.5 million? That itself should tell you the gravity of the situation. Unless we have radical reforms, this situation is not going to change. And radical reforms will need radical decision making. And that will mean some trouble for many of us.

Now the choice is simple and as well it is difficult.

[400notout]

Originally Posted by carwatcher

I can safely say that you are refusing to see the writing which is written very largely on the wall.

I do not wish to discuss politics. Nothing personal against the ruling party either. When I'm forced to do anything I question it. The "greater good" is what you and I differ on.

Originally Posted by ptushar

Of course they are. Because they are ones who pay taxes honestly through TDS. Neither the rich nor the poor contribute to taxes. So if the salaried class is going gaga then I support it full time.

I dont like to be a party pooper. We say "buyer beware" apply the same before buying what your politicians sell to you. The salaried class should have a peek at how businesses are run in his country. BTW indirect taxes are paid by everybody.

Originally Posted by ptushar

What you believe is finally your choice. Glad that you agree that a roll back will be tremendously detrimental to the morale of the tax paying citizen.

Salute to the taxpaying citizen. I have my doubts about the outcome of this move. Taking stringent measures is fine by me, but what I personally feel that little will change after all that is borne by us.

Originally Posted by ptushar

Here is again where I disagree. I have got three people on PayTm in this period. Including an Auto driver. And you can pay small amounts very quickly on mobile wallets. Please try it once. You will love it. Many small businesses like vegetable vendors, road side stalls etc have accepted PayTM as mode of payment. Instead of questioning this, adopt it and spread the word. Let people know that you get cashback on these services and promotional offers where they can save money. If we people do our bit, this economy will start moving towards being near-cashless if not totally cashless.

Now the choice is simple and as well it is difficult.

You are coming up with initiatives which the govt. should have in the first place. They have more power (like the demonetization) and can be more effective if there is a political will. However rather than sitting stubbornly and criticising the govt. your idea is definitely better.

On a lighter note do you work for Paytm?

[JLS]

Originally Posted by 400notout

How does this change anything? Just the notes have changed. Cash is still alive its more of a scramble to have valid ones.

All "unaccounted" old notes have become invalid - accounted ones are being deposited/exchanged.

Originally Posted by 400notout

Well people have died, and there are queues. Long ones. You differ

Queues are reducing - people died while standing in queue is unfortunate.

Originally Posted by 400notout

Let the ban remain, why introduce 2k notes is my question. Please enlighten.

Objective is to address unaccounted large sum of cash, not to remove all large denomination currency notes.

Originally Posted by 400notout

Ooh sarcasm! Time will tell. I have seen people with lots of cash and those with none. Guess whos laughing?

People with large sum of cash are troubled, and people without cash or limited cash are really happy and laughing. Do you perceive otherwise?

Originally Posted by 400notout

That is some shallow reading. Common people usually are the collateral damage in such situations. But according to you people are pleased as a punch visiting banks.

if situation is as bad as you suggest, there might be revolution. What we are seeing that large number of people are taking this move in their stride and welcoming it.

Originally Posted by 400notout

You are doing this on purpose and having fun while you are at it. We do not have a cashless infrastructure at the grass root level to handle such mass
cash crunch.

Why can't we use cheques for transactions involving major amount, I fail to understand. We actually do not need cashless infrastructure for survival - we need it for ease of operation.
For all small transactions, we can continue using small denominations which are very well in circulation.
Problem arises only because I am going out and withdrawing and hoarding cash - although in smaller denomination - this causes a crunch.

Originally Posted by 400notout

flavours galore my friend

Sarcasm flows due to sarcasm my friend.
All anti-demonetization people come in with a mindset that they can question and criticize everything, it is their democratic right.
However, when their argument is countered, they suddenly claim they have been called anti-national.
Believe me despite his public utterance that black money is good, nobody has dared to call ruling CM of socialist party neither anti-national nor anti-social.

So, I am all open and waiting for things to subside, if there are inordinate delays or no results - I will also be out with criticism.
BUT I also need to have my rights and freedom to support or oppose ideas without fear of being classified and type-casted.