[msdivy]

Originally Posted by asingh1977

*****
Just a rumor mill:
1. Gold purchase will need to be registered - akin to property.
2. A person can only register two properties under their name in one city.
3. A property registry can not have > 2 applicants.

Not sure, if this is true or when it will be implemented. But if they do, they are really tightening the noose. Hard.

Wish those things happen, but being a capitalist country, its unlikely. I think these require a bill to be passed in the two houses.

Originally Posted by pratyush6

Also, I have been hearing that Hospitals are refusing patents - isn't this plainly illegal? There license can be cancelled for this and the administration should step into this. The point is that most state govts don't want the scheme to be a success and are hoping for a roll back so there is so much noise.

While central govt has allowed Govt hospitals to accept old notes, many state Govts have issued notifications in their respective state to enable private hospitals to accept old notes.

What can you imagine from media which yesterday wanted a lady to drag her physically challenged husband through a hospital in order to prove the distress.

Wasn't that because of lack stretcher and got nothing to do with currency?

Originally Posted by heavenlybull

Suddenly everyone is super concerned about the poor of India, be it politicians, businessmen or intellectuals.

Earlier I could walk into any ATM & get cash. Now hardly there are any ATMs with cash and those which have cash have huge queue. I am concerned that I have leave my work aside and join that queue when I run out of cash.

Originally Posted by SDP

Don't people generally carry enough 100Rs and 10Rs notes in their wallets to be able to pay for a share-auto, a cutting chai, a cigarette, a wada-pav? So what has changed?

Along with this change, people do carry cash for contingency expenses. These would be in 500s or 1000s. Now there is no 500s, no 1000s, people are keeping whatever cash they have for an emergency. Hence the pressure on 100s, 50s & 10s.

Its these people who have to be blamed for the shortage created.

People are just reacting to an induced action, why blame them?

Originally Posted by carwatcher

Also do remember that no one from the media or opposition is criticising RBI Governor, etc because he was appointed deputy governor by the previous govt.

Why blame the RBI governor? It is pure Govt decision. Current Govt made him RBI Governor and he is helping them.

I remember reading somewhere that 'In the process of becoming Modi-haters, they didn't realize when they turned into India-haters.'

This has got nothing to with love or hate of Modi or India. The only question is, does the current action will yield or seem to yield the desired result? Let me list the issues:

1) Corruption: It just moves from old notes to new notes. With Rs 2000 notes, it is even easier to hoard large denominations.

2) Black money: Affects only that part which is held in cash in 500, 1000 notes.
Also, let's say black currency hoarders discard their notes now. They will start again and in about 10 years they will be back to the level where they are.

3) Fake currency: Yes, the real benefit of this exercise. May be will last till the counterfeiters master new notes.

Remember, in 2012 the folks were excited that Aadhaar will change everything. Seeing similar jingoism. Demonetization is a revolutionary step and nation is bearing hardship in the hope of seeing the fruits. But with same old legislation & old rules, not sure how much success the current Govt can achieve. Hopes of people will be quashed. PM has asked time till 30 Dec (50 days), let's see what can be accomplished

Originally Posted by ptushar

Here is again where I disagree. I have got three people on PayTm in this period. Including an Auto driver. And you can pay small amounts very quickly on mobile wallets. Please try it once. You will love it.

Cash is easy, immediate, reliable & exact. PayTM is not simple (setting up and later what if a wrong number is entered while paying merchant) depends on mobile data (and phone battery), and though now free, they can start charging their percentage cut when their funding dries up. PayTM is alternative payment mode and not cash. Cash is guaranteed by RBI. With PayTM, the risk is mine (https://paytm.com/terms).

BTW, I hear people telling that normalcy will be restored within a week's time to a period of 6 months. But what would this new normalcy mean? Having withdrawal limit of Rs 2,500 per day or Rs 40,000 as before?

[sukhoi30]

Originally Posted by asingh1977

*****
Just a rumor mill:
1. Gold purchase will need to be registered - akin to property.
2. A person can only register two properties under their name in one city.
3. A property registry can not have > 2 applicants.

Not sure, if this is true or when it will be implemented. But if they do, they are really tightening the noose. Hard.

Such steps will be difficult to implement or even justify as it will infringe on people's fundamental rights. Best way is to increase the cost by adding taxes/surcharges etc. to prohibitively increase the prices of an item.

[carwatcher]

Dear friend this move was done by Govt only by way of giving license to PayTM and many other companies like Vodafone m-pesa as payment banks and which kind of woken up all the banks from their slumber and 'How to counter PayTM' was the single point agenda discussed very fiercely in their board meetings and now almost every bank has come out with their mobile-wallet.

The next move was done by way of all banks to report real NPAs and make provisions for the same so that the real picture can come. I have no pity if in future the so called hard working bank Staffs get arrested as they all got their cuts in disbursing loans (as told first hand by many friends who work for PSU banks). Your blood will boil if you hear stories how an ordinary person is refused small loans by the same banks for want of any single document even if he had remaining papers or reference while they cant recover thousands of crores from big businesses whose all the paperwork and information they are supposed to be having.

If anyone starts a fight against 'the corrupt system' as seen in numerous movies or discussed in various threads and is repeatedly reminded that one can't win against it. Imagine how big a risk our PM has taken against so many forces.

Originally Posted by 400notout

You are coming up with initiatives which the govt. should have in the first place. They have more power (like the demonetization) and can be more effective if there is a political will. However rather than sitting stubbornly and criticising the govt. your idea is definitely better.

[400notout]

Originally Posted by JLS

Queues are reducing - people died while standing in queue is unfortunate.

Queues are definitely reducing and will keep reducing. People dying is unfortunate. I just pray it shouldn't amount to nothing.

Originally Posted by JLS

Objective is to address unaccounted large sum of cash, not to remove all large denomination currency notes.

Originally Posted by JLS

All "unaccounted" old notes have become invalid - accounted ones are being deposited/exchanged.

And withdrawn.

Banning of high denomination notes was advocated majorly as it would reduce stocking cash and create difficulties in high value cash transactions. What stops one from piling another stash or am I missing something?

Originally Posted by JLS

People with large sum of cash are troubled, and people without cash or limited cash are really happy and laughing. Do you perceive otherwise?

People with large sums of cash, if they are smart enough have good relationships with banks. High net worth individuals are more preferred customers. It means for them exchanging/depositing /withdrawing is not such a pain as say me, who has set up all online facilities so I can avoid visiting banks. But if these people who dont regularly visit banks and dont "know" the the staff are meted the common man treatment and follow the queue. Fair?

I have seen both spectrums closely, Rich businessmen how they are saving what they can and the poor (me) who have to stand in line. And believe me Sir its just not fair. No matter what amount is disclosed/deposited at the point of sale new black money will be generated and I see no provision to counter that. Instead we have a double value sleeker monopoly note. I couldnt believe a 2 lakh stack when I first saw it.

Originally Posted by JLS

if situation is as bad as you suggest, there might be revolution. What we are seeing that large number of people are taking this move in their stride and welcoming it.

The situation is tolerable, if people are resilient to travel by trains hours after a bomb blast, this is small change. Thats not my point. But if you are forced to do it the govt is answerable.

Originally Posted by JLS

Why can't we use cheques for transactions involving major amount, I fail to understand. We actually do not need cashless infrastructure for survival - we need it for ease of operation.
For all small transactions, we can continue using small denominations which are very well in circulation.
Problem arises only because I am going out and withdrawing and hoarding cash - although in smaller denomination - this causes a crunch.

Rightly said, but apart from the sudden demonetization (which I do not oppose to clarify again) what measures have been taken to encourage cashlessness?

Originally Posted by JLS

Sarcasm flows due to sarcasm my friend.
All anti-demonetization people come in with a mindset that they can question and criticize everything, it is their democratic right.
However, when their argument is countered, they suddenly claim they have been called anti-national.
Believe me despite his public utterance that black money is good, nobody has dared to call ruling CM of socialist party neither anti-national nor anti-social.

I apologise if you found my posts sarcastic. I dont say you are wrong, because I cannot prove it. However I am trying to make an argument by separating the move (demonetization) from the ruling party or the PM. I am trying to look at it from an objective view unemotionally. I keep asking because I have not found convincing answers. Also people who are emotional about this do not make logical arguments. They support just because they "feel" its right. Not my way of satisfying curiosity.

Originally Posted by JLS

So, I am all open and waiting for things to subside, if there are inordinate delays or no results - I will also be out with criticism.
BUT I also need to have my rights and freedom to support or oppose ideas without fear of being classified and type-casted.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by 400notout

...........
I am trying to look at it from an objective view unemotionally.
.......

If I look at this initiative without trying to put 'ruling party' motive, I believe that majority of huge chunk of liquid and unaccounted cash suddenly became questionable.
Accountable liquid cash owners also will face some difficulty, but they will be able to regain their cash in new currency or in form of bank deposit largely unhurt.

Unaccountable liquid cash owners have a much bigger and difficult burden on them to prove their source of income. I will not be sympathetic at all if their currency becomes scrap eventually. I also really wish and pray that government and IT dept scrutinizes all txns post 8th Nov, with property dealers, gold merchants for their source of income, identifies dubious and illegal source of cash and brings them to books of law.

I favor suddenness of declaration as it minimized the chances of converting cash to other forms.

I am seeing some effects already - property transactions reduced, gold which was priced about 50K is back to sub 30K level. I am really expecting property prices would reduce substantially and coupled with reduced home loan rates, properties may become more affordable for next 10 years or so.

Other BHPian had suggested that there are easy way to convert large liquid cash to new currency and there are champions who will do this without much fuss. I wish government plugs such gaps and follows up de-monetization with good effective measures so as to ensure that benefits are realized and new black money piles are not created in near future.

What is your objective take - without tainting it by giving it a political motive - on this initiative?

Best regards
JLS

[ecenandu]

Isn't this step from government like this, in order to reduce the fatalities of road accidents, lets limit the speed limit to 15 Km/hr for all vehicles.

If something we can learn from this is exercise is we need to be better prepared for such emergencies, like say a natural disaster or an attack. Do we have centralised disaster management control ?

[hothatchaway]

Originally Posted by 400notout

Remember there is no jail, just income tax penalty and excise scrutiny. this will be dealt with March end. All you need is a good accountant.

Please read the income tax laws - http://incometaxindia.gov.in/Charts%...osecutions.htm it provides for rigorous imprisonment in certain cases.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

I went to the bank as planned yesterday to deposit my old notes, to not join and add to the early panic; just before I did that I reflected and realised that much of my support system here - the various vendors like chemist, grocer, bakery and the like - are still accepting the old notes because they are being more sensible than most Indians that are behaving like a herd of sheep. There is a challenge of obtaining change in return, but there are practical workarounds to that.

What they are doing is accepting what is no longer legal tender. Maybe they are otherwise straight shooters who will not have huge amounts to deposit. This however does not make it right. The restrictions are imposed for a reason and the expectation is that the common man supports it and not sabotages it.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Now I shall be accused of being anti national and conspiring to make this grand scheme a failure. So be it, but I know perfectly well that I am not breaking any law.

- You may not be but those accepting old Rs 500/1000 notes after midnight of 8th Nov are. Let that be very clear and it will be good if you could also explain to those who think its still perfectly kosher.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

And in an earlier post, you remarked that you hope all of this succeeds. So do I, very sincerely. But I am seeing too many signs of things not working according to a grand master plan, so as a concerned Indian, I remain very anxious.

- Its very difficult to have a master plan when you are dealing with as complex a country as India, now that it is in place, the least we can try and do is make this work. After all am sure most of us have railed against corruption/nepotism at some time or the other. Discussion and debate is fine, but trying to sabotage it just because one does not agree with it is anti-national

[akhil_007]

Banks will be serving only senior citizens tomorrow. I pity bank employees as well. Hope they get a day off on Sunday atleast

[400notout]

Originally Posted by JLS

If I look at this initiative without trying to put 'ruling party' motive, I believe that majority of huge chunk of liquid and unaccounted cash suddenly became questionable.
Accountable liquid cash owners also will face some difficulty, but they will be able to regain their cash in new currency or in form of bank deposit largely unhurt.

Very true.

Originally Posted by JLS

Unaccountable liquid cash owners have a much bigger and difficult burden on them to prove their source of income. I will not be sympathetic at all if their currency becomes scrap eventually. I also really wish and pray that government and IT dept scrutinizes all txns post 8th Nov, with property dealers, gold merchants for their source of income, identifies dubious and illegal source of cash and brings them to books of law.

Makes sense.

Originally Posted by JLS

I favor suddenness of declaration as it minimized the chances of converting cash to other forms.

Suddenness is effective.

Originally Posted by JLS

I am seeing some effects already - property transactions reduced, gold which was priced about 50K is back to sub 30K level. I am really expecting property prices would reduce substantially and coupled with reduced home loan rates, properties may become more affordable for next 10 years or so.

How do you think this would reduce property prices? I have heard this at many places but I'm not able to comprehend. Forget the realtors, suppose you have purchased an 2nd property at a far off suburb or your native for the purpose of investment. Say its value is at 25lakhs, would you in any scenario sell it for say 15 lakhs? Also if housing loan interest rates reduce (better probability) wouldnt that spurt demand for homes / second homes and as a result increase rates. I'm no economics expert, its just an honest question.

Originally Posted by JLS

Other BHPian had suggested that there are easy way to convert large liquid cash to new currency and there are champions who will do this without much fuss. I wish government plugs such gaps and follows up de-monetization with good effective measures so as to ensure that benefits are realized and new black money piles are not created in near future.

I'm not technically very sure about this, knowledgeable accountants will hardly risk anything that makes them unanswerable during scrutiny. There are some who have already converted purchasing backdated gold at a loss. Some are using idle accounts to convert currency at a percentage ranging from 30-45. Some are waiting. The current move does not give any indication how black money cannot be regenerated. 10 days and I have seen wads of 2k notes (easily 2 lakhs) at quite a few places. Maybe more action will happen in this regard. Any way I dont see people storing cash anymore they'll prefer other modes. When the arthakranti guys started taking credit for this move, I puked. Because their vision of banning high denomination notes is not the same as what has been done here. Its more in lines of what you explained i.e. sudden invalidation of unaccounted cash. So much for hogging the limelight. Traditional idea of banning these notes (as propogated by arthakranti and Baba ramdev during ramlila days) is to make logistics difficult. Imagine carrying 10 lakhs in 100 notes. But clearly thats not the motive here. Or else there would be no 2k notes. Need to keep watching this space to see how the story doesn't repeat itself. Its a tough job. A very tough job. All said and done, it will work very well to affect counterfieters and terrorist activities. Now only if corruption is taken care of.

[StarrySky]

I have seen the line repeated many times that most of the black money is not stored as cash, but invested in real estate, gold etc. Now, if I have some black money and I buy real estate with it, I convert my black money to real estate, but the seller is now holding it in cash. So it exists as cash with someone else. What am I missing?

[diyguy]

Originally Posted by poloman

What kind of notes are being supplied at the bank counter? only 2000 notes or 100?

The banker asked me to come at 9:30 but I could go only at 11:30. He used that excuse and only gave me 2000 value notes. I guess the more you have invested with them, the more pain they will take for you. He actually told me not to come as I had delayed but I was kinda irritated because I knew if I go I will still get the money. He just didn't want to work a bit harder for my sake... also the priority section had most of their staff twiddling their thumbs (saw at least 4) behind their workstations or on the phone. I just wish they had spread out across the other floors to move things faster. I had estimated there were about 150 people on the first floor who had come to withdraw money or deposit.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

I have seen the line repeated many times that most of the black money is not stored as cash, but invested in real estate, gold etc. Now, if I have some black money and I buy real estate with it, I convert my black money to real estate, but the seller is now holding it in cash. So it exists as cash with someone else. What am I missing?

How will you do that now, after the fact??

[hserus]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

I have seen the line repeated many times that most of the black money is not stored as cash, but invested in real estate, gold etc. Now, if I have some black money and I buy real estate with it, I convert my black money to real estate, but the seller is now holding it in cash. So it exists as cash with someone else. What am I missing?

Money is white or black based on whether the possessor has accounted for it and paid tax on it or not. It isn't a skin colour sort of thing that it stays permanently white or black.

For example I might pay tax on my salaried income and pay a garage guy say 10k for some repairs on my car. He might just take it home and put it in a cash box rather than deposit it and definitely doesn't keep account books or pay tax on the amount. The white money I handed the guy is black in his hands.

If he hands the cash to a store that sells auto parts and they give him a bill with vat and everything and declare the income the money becomes white again.

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by msdivy

Wasn't that because of lack stretcher and got nothing to do with currency?

Yes, but I was disgusted to see that in order to make a news story they can stoop to any low. They had 2 people filming it. What I meant was do we trust media houses like these?

God, I so miss the days when we could trust the news.

In other news - Tomorrow exchange would only be for Bank Customers and Seniors - Good move, make it permanent, see how the crowd thins out.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/55499630.cms

[poloman]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

I have seen the line repeated many times that most of the black money is not stored as cash, but invested in real estate, gold etc. Now, if I have some black money and I buy real estate with it, I convert my black money to real estate, but the seller is now holding it in cash. So it exists as cash with someone else. What am I missing?

If the seller is a big builder he can easily circulate it by paying laborers, suppliers etc. But as per data available most of the cash sales happen in secondary markets with sellers being individuals. They also may circulate some money in their business if they have one. But it is a truth that significant amount of black money is held in hard cash. Some in lockers. Gold and land are not liquid and are prone to wild price fluctuations. Now after this move people may chose dollar or some foreign currency as the next safe haven though availability may be a concern.

When you talk about cash they will talk about gold and real estate. If you attack gold and real estate, they will talk about personal liberties and right to property. So this is a never ending saga. If you can bring the shadow economy to less than 10% from the current 25-30% it will be a job well done.

Originally Posted by hserus

For example I might pay tax on my salaried income and pay a garage guy say 10k for some repairs on my car. He might just take it home and put it in a cash box rather than deposit it and definitely doesn't keep account books or pay tax on the amount. The white money I handed the guy is black in his hands.
.

I am afraid that money is not black till the money in his cash box crosses the tax limits.